I actually believe in God

[Padawanbater2]

Something I would like to throw out is that though yes I do believe God is all powerful, I'm not so sure about the other statements. Though I believe God knows all in the sense of the present moment, the past and perhaps someones disposition to future actions, I'm not sure I agree with the common interpretation of God knowing your every future action. The reason being the story of Abraham being instructed to sacrifice his son Isaac as a test of faith. In Genesis 22:12 the verse reads, "Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.” The bold portion is what influences my view upon this (which if you consider the Bible invalid, this makes no difference to you). And in regard to God making no mistakes (I feel as if I'm treading a fine line in this next statement), I starkly remember a passage describing God's "repentance" in relation to the creation of man. Do I believe God is a perfect being? Yes. Do I believe God has no regrets? No. (this kind of ties in with my previous post)

Does viewing the future not entail "all powerful"? If a being doesn't possess that power, how could it be considered "all powerful"? If it can view the future, how could free-will exist?

Honest questions

 

[Greenkid777]

Does viewing the future not entail "all powerful"? If a being doesn't possess that power, how could it be considered "all powerful"? If it can view the future, how could free-will exist?

Honest questions

I guess my definition of "all powerful" doesn't encompass knowledge of all future events. Just as you mentioned, if the creator knows all future choices before an individual is even conceived then that would defeat the whole purpose of creation in the first place. What I think you are including within all powerful is an omniscient property. I believe God would be omnipotent rather than omniscient.

 

[Padawanbater2]

I guess my definition of "all powerful" doesn't encompass knowledge of all future events. Just as you mentioned, if the creator knows all future choices before an individual is even conceived then that would defeat the whole purpose of creation in the first place. What I think you are including within all powerful is an omniscient property. I believe God would be omnipotent rather than omniscient.

Wouldn't such a being be required to possess both?

If it was omnipotent but not omniscient, how would it know it is all powerful?

Again, not trying to argue or split hairs, just trying to cover inconsistencies.


I'm atheist, too, I also feel like people have a right to believe whatever they want as long as it doesn't infringe on anyone elses beliefs. But I also believe that all organized religions do indeed infringe on other peoples believes/rights, different degrees for different religions, but they all do it to some extent or another.

 

[Chief Walkin Eagle]

I'm in between an Agnostic and a Theist.

Sometimes I believe God has to be real because He created EVERYTHING and sometimes I don't see much proof for God besides creation.

I just don't believe in most of the fairy tales in the Bible, but there has to be some factual history in there but I can't discern the real from the fake.

Welcome to RIU, Greenkid777. We need more believers blogging on here to even out the "playing field". Stick around bud!

~PEACE~

Jesus say whaaat?

 

[tyler.durden]

I guess my definition of "all powerful" doesn't encompass knowledge of all future events. Just as you mentioned, if the creator knows all future choices before an individual is even conceived then that would defeat the whole purpose of creation in the first place. What I think you are including within all powerful is an omniscient property. I believe God would be omnipotent rather than omniscient.

That's an interesting take on a creator, omnipotent but not omniscient. It seems to give more credibility to the god concept, it least it is one less major inconsistency. It avoids this logic meltdown:

"Incidentally, it has not escaped the notice of logicians that omniscience and omnipotence are mutually incompatible. If God is omniscient, he must already know how he is going to intervene to change the course of history using his omnipotence. But that means he can’t change his mind about his intervention, which means he is not omnipotent." - Dawkins

 

[OGEvilgenius]

I believe in a higher power. God is a loaded word. Too many implications there. I don't really think God cares about us on any level at all. Sort of like how little the creators of online RPGs don't really give a shit about your character. But hey, who knows?

It's also highly doubtful "God" knows all. I wouldn't be shocked to learn he/she/it is all powerful and can do anything (see again the computer programmer/game analogy) desired in our Universe(s) though.

 

[Caspernode]

just so you know, satanist are believers in god too, believing that god exist and doing what he wants you to do are two different things.
im not any religion as ive never thought about or considered any of it, and just for clarification that also means im not atheist. (really that is a religion called nihilist, but ya know what ever)
but dont get me wrong, i believe any religion that teaches people good things, is a good religion and deserves a place in the community.

 

[MellowFarmer]

Welcome aboard ! You don't know me, but I too believe in god. My life has been pretty much a nightmare (see profile if desired) but I can not believe that a random accident created the wonders of our universe. Look at the complexity of every living thing. I am skeptical of the bible and other man manipulated dogma, but I can't believe everything was an accident. One way I look at it is; if you live your life in a caring, honest way, the worst that can happen is that you will die a loved and respected man. The best is that you may find out that there is a God and an afterlife. I would rather be considered a good man, than a fool. Peace & be kind

I understand what you mean, I was raised catholic but just could not swallow all the guilt and hypocrisy but felt that the message of Jesus was a great way to live and tried my best to live the Golden Rule. But I felt there was some higher power, something more to life and that nature was to be worshiped if I were to worship anything. I have come to understand very deeply that we are all God, we are all one stream of consciousness experiencing life subjectively and there is no such thing as heaven and hell, except what we make on earth.

 

[Padawanbater2]

That's an interesting take on a creator, omnipotent but not omniscient. It seems to give more credibility to the god concept, it least it is one less major inconsistency. It avoids this logic meltdown:

"Incidentally, it has not escaped the notice of logicians that omniscience and omnipotence are mutually incompatible. If God is omniscient, he must already know how he is going to intervene to change the course of history using his omnipotence. But that means he can’t change his mind about his intervention, which means he is not omnipotent." - Dawkins

Now that's interesting as fuck, and really makes me think. This is something I've never thought about before. I wonder how Dawkins came to that conclusion, because I think he's right..

God know's the best possible outcome because he is omniscient, because he is omnibenevolent, he must decide to do the best thing, therefore, it follows that he is incapable of doing the wrong thing. If he is incapable of doing the wrong thing, how is he omnipotent?

 

[tyler.durden]

Now that's interesting as fuck, and really makes me think. This is something I've never thought about before. I wonder how Dawkins came to that conclusion, because I think he's right..

God know's the best possible outcome because he is omniscient, because he is omnibenevolent, he must decide to do the best thing, therefore, it follows that he is incapable of doing the wrong thing. If he is incapable of doing the wrong thing, how is he omnipotent?

You made it even more complex by adding omnibenevolence into the mix, it's complex enough with omnipotence and omniscience

 

[Nevaeh420]

Jesus say whaaat?

Whats up Chief? How are you doing My friend?

If I remember correctly, you said you're a Theist too, like Me. But what I think you're confused about is that the fact that Im partially Agnostic at times because I dont see much proof for God besides creation. When has God ever shown up? What has God ever done for us besides creating everything for us? Where is God now? Who is God? Why would God be so silent for many many years? I have many questions, that I dont think will ever be answered by God, about God.

But as for Myself, there is nothing but proof that Im alive and have said what I have said, infallible proof. Everyone can agree thay Im alive and claiming to be the Prophet or the Christ. I do hope that God is alive but wheres the proof? Cant science prove God?

Maybe Gods only job is to start universes throughout the multiverse. Maybe God puts His people, like Christ, to be in charge of planets and galaxies.

You should post more often Chief, I missed you brother.

PEACE

 

[Beefbisquit]

That's an interesting take on a creator, omnipotent but not omniscient. It seems to give more credibility to the god concept, it least it is one less major inconsistency. It avoids this logic meltdown:

"Incidentally, it has not escaped the notice of logicians that omniscience and omnipotence are mutually incompatible. If God is omniscient, he must already know how he is going to intervene to change the course of history using his omnipotence. But that means he can’t change his mind about his intervention, which means he is not omnipotent." - Dawkins

I'm not 100% sure I follow. Maybe there's more to the quote?

Why would god have to intervene to change the course of history?

Uber baked, probably just being slow. lol

 

[Samwell Seed Well]

I'm not 100% sure I follow. Maybe there's more to the quote?

Why would god have to intervene to change the course of history?

Uber baked, probably just being slow. lol

his perfect plan actually required a bit of change ..of course divine change

first rule is im never worng

second rule is im never wrong

thrid rule is if im wrong refer to rule number one, number 2

fourth rule is i change what i say, i meant it

 

[OGEvilgenius]

Now that's interesting as fuck, and really makes me think. This is something I've never thought about before. I wonder how Dawkins came to that conclusion, because I think he's right..

He is definitely correct about the problem of Omniscience and Omnipotence. Hence my position.

God know's the best possible outcome because he is omniscient, because he is omnibenevolent, he must decide to do the best thing, therefore, it follows that he is incapable of doing the wrong thing. If he is incapable of doing the wrong thing, how is he omnipotent?

The Omnibenevolent position is equally absurd. But neither are necessary for me or my belief system.

 

[tyler.durden]

I'm not 100% sure I follow. Maybe there's more to the quote?

Why would god have to intervene to change the course of history?

Uber baked, probably just being slow. lol

No, you're not being slow, it gets confusing. Prayer seems to be asking god to veer from a determined course or divine plan. As an omnipotent and omniscient creature, could he do this? I like the way this guy puts it -

It is commonly claimed that God is both omniscient and omnipotent. I don't think that God can be both at the same time.

Omnipotence means that God is all-powerful, and is able to do anything he likes. Omniscience means that God knows everything.

Now, if God is omniscient, then He already knows at any given time what he will do in the future, because he can see the future. He's all-seeing, after all.

But if God already knows what he will do at every moment in the future, then God has no free will. He cannot choose to do something different from what he already knows he will do. And therefore, he is not all-powerful. In fact, it could be argued that He has no power at all...

 

[Chief Walkin Eagle]

Whats up Chief? How are you doing My friend?

If I remember correctly, you said you're a Theist too, like Me. But what I think you're confused about is that the fact that Im partially Agnostic at times because I dont see much proof for God besides creation. When has God ever shown up? What has God ever done for us besides creating everything for us? Where is God now? Who is God? Why would God be so silent for many many years? I have many questions, that I dont think will ever be answered by God, about God.

But as for Myself, there is nothing but proof that Im alive and have said what I have said, infallible proof. Everyone can agree thay Im alive and claiming to be the Prophet or the Christ. I do hope that God is alive but wheres the proof? Cant science prove God?

Maybe Gods only job is to start universes throughout the multiverse. Maybe God puts His people, like Christ, to be in charge of planets and galaxies.

You should post more often Chief, I missed you brother.

PEACE

The universe is so ridiculously vast and most likely teeming with life that 'God' wouldnt have the time to say wussup lol I dunno. I dont think 'God' needs to make him/her/itself physically known to the oblivious and young feeble beings of this physical universe. I dont think it works like that. I think controversial things like lucid dreaming, astral projection, DMT, ayahuasca, meditation etc are ways to get just a hint of truth as to what 'God' and other supernatural things are. Theres so many directions I could go into when discussing this subject, it makes my mind race with possibilities and I lose my train of thought jumping from one possibility to the next, but all of it is just a bunch of "what if's". I think theres beings of higher consciousness, even higher than the creator of this universe. Hell, maybe there wasnt a creator at all and things like 'Gods' and the spirit world just happened somehow through natural processes. No matter what secrets this reality amazes us with though, its natural.

The reason I replied to your post is because I was confused. The second coming of you, Jesus, Gods son, said to be a God himself... Struggles with his belief in God? I dont get it. Would you ever conclude that there probably isnt a 'God' yet still believe you are Jesus? I believe a lot of us are gods and if that were to be true then 'God' did come to be through processes that are more natural than previously thought.

I post the following as a fellow crazy bastard, peace man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvOHbxBAEN8

 

[Greenkid777]

Now that's interesting as fuck, and really makes me think. This is something I've never thought about before. I wonder how Dawkins came to that conclusion, because I think he's right..

God know's the best possible outcome because he is omniscient, because he is omnibenevolent, he must decide to do the best thing, therefore, it follows that he is incapable of doing the wrong thing. If he is incapable of doing the wrong thing, how is he omnipotent?

An interesting perspective. But what is your idea of the "best thing", and what is your idea of "wrong". If God is the creator then morality is based off his definition (in the sense of godly morality), and not some pre-determined mode of action that God is bound by. There may be man made codes of morality, but ultimately God's moral code would trump these and be the only "true" moral standard. Which brings me to another question, can God be wrong at all?

 

[Padawanbater2]

An interesting perspective. But what is your idea of the "best thing", and what is your idea of "wrong". If God is the creator then morality is based off his definition (in the sense of godly morality), and not some pre-determined mode of action that God is bound by. There may be man made codes of morality, but ultimately God's moral code would trump these and be the only "true" moral standard. Which brings me to another question, can God be wrong at all?

According to Christian dogma, no, God cannot be wrong

I think my definitions of "best thing" and "wrong" are irrelevant, what matters is what is objective, what can be quantified. I think what is "good" and what is "bad" has been well established throughout human history. For instance, it is universally agreed upon among humanity that murder is wrong, theft, rape, kidnapping, all wrong.

For a god to come along and determine that our conclusions are flawed would be, in my opinion, wrong, if such a god existed, it would have equipped us with the tools necessary to determine right from wrong or intentionally created us with a flaw, which again precludes the idea of omnibenevolence. God is either omnibenevolent and he created humanity with no flaws, or he isn't because we have flaws. If he isn't, how do you explain that, as a believer? Also, if he isn't omnibenevolent, why should anyone worship him as a god at all?


If gods "moral code" trumps humanities, and we have no way of determining what that code is, how would we be expected to follow it? Wouldn't that lead to a disproportionate amount of people going to Hell?

 

[tyler.durden]

If gods "moral code" trumps humanities, and we have no way of determining what that code is, how would we be expected to follow it? Wouldn't that lead to a disproportionate amount of people going to Hell?

I love the tallies of heaven's and hell's population in this clip -

[video=youtube;boIgHd9hXiA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boIgHd9hXiA[/video]

 

[Greenkid777]

According to Christian dogma, no, God cannot be wrong

I think my definitions of "best thing" and "wrong" are irrelevant, what matters is what is objective, what can be quantified. I think what is "good" and what is "bad" has been well established throughout human history. For instance, it is universally agreed upon among humanity that murder is wrong, theft, rape, kidnapping, all wrong.

For a god to come along and determine that our conclusions are flawed would be, in my opinion, wrong, if such a god existed, it would have equipped us with the tools necessary to determine right from wrong or intentionally created us with a flaw, which again precludes the idea of omnibenevolence. God is either omnibenevolent and he created humanity with no flaws, or he isn't because we have flaws. If he isn't, how do you explain that, as a believer? Also, if he isn't omnibenevolent, why should anyone worship him as a god at all?


If gods "moral code" trumps humanities, and we have no way of determining what that code is, how would we be expected to follow it? Wouldn't that lead to a disproportionate amount of people going to Hell?

For me, these questions are answered within the Bible. But I understand for anyone to consider these answers noteworthy then they would have to also trust the validity of the source. If I listed passages that answered these for me, would it do any good? The way I see it, we could speculate all day upon what we reason within ourselves to be answers. But they are in the end just speculations.

Not to mention that even if you do consider the Bible true, then there is the problem of interpretation and misinterpretation.