Why would defoliation increase stretch rate
- Thread starter goskya
- Start date
dannyboy602
Well-Known Member
Scotty Pot Seed
Active Member
THANK YOU Fresh! I have done my own side by side due to not finding solid information before and it just being a "can of worms" according to some people here. I noticed when I took out old fan leaves and very selectively removed cramped leaves, my defoliated girl did better. Of course I did not butcher her. But old fans were removed. I posted a while back about the subject and got attacked for it. I got the whole "AMG Learn2Photosynthesis" line... That is when I decided to just try it... And I don't care if everyone gets on board or not. All it takes is a little experimentation. And as long as you are not an idiot and push her to the point of stress, you will see results.
Stretch isn't just in the genetics. It can also be influenced, proven by university studies, by the type of fertilizer the plant receives. Nutrient makes ups high in phosphorus add to the stretch of the plant. there is a reason why a lot of growing veterans out there use nutrients with more N in the them during the first two weeks of flower, and all the way through. All these bullshit npk ratios with super high P add to the stretch of this and any other plant. http://www.gpnmag.com/sites/default/files/GPN Jan '02 -NC State.pdf
Conclusions
When all of these results are put together, it is clear that
the form of nitrogen did not govern plant size. Repeatedly, the differences in
plant growth were a consequence of the amount of phosphorus supplied to the
plants, not the form of nitrogen. Going back to the original question,
“Does ammonium-nitrogen really cause plant stretch,” the answer
would have to be no. Differences in plant height among the many fertilizers
varying in ammonium-nitrate proportion are controlled by the phosphate —
low phosphate levels result in compact plants, high phosphate levels result in
tall plants.
Fertilizers with high proportions of their nitrogen in the
nitrate form typically contain little or no phosphate, resulting in compact
plants and leading to the incorrect assumption that nitrate nitrogen causes
compactness. Fertilizers with high proportions of nitrogen in the ammonium form
(33 percent or more) invariably contain high levels of phosphate. These
fertilizers yield the more luxuriant growth to which we are accustomed and
result in the belief that ammoniacal nitrogen causes stretch.
Thus, if compact plants are your goal, you should limit the
amount of phosphorus applied to the plants; conversely, if full plants are your
goal, you should apply fertilizers containing the appropriate levels of
phosphorus.
Fresh 2 De@th
Well-Known Member
AimAim
Well-Known Member
OK, just for grins, can someone name ONE other crop where defoliation is used to increase production of fruits or flowers? Like crops grown by people that farm and know what they are doing and depend on their skills just to keep on truckin' and keep the farm going?
I'm all ears......
I'm all ears......
Fresh 2 De@th
Well-Known Member
here's some for you. whether you choose to accept it or not, is completely on you.
and as you gladly stated, i have yet to see above average plants from you or the other zealots in contrast of this form or way of training. so i guess we share the same sentiments in regards to the way we feel.
#324
https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/meeks-2013-dapper-grow-log.53463/page-11
https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/the-divine-genetics-test-lab.44942/page-5
Fresh 2 De@th
Well-Known Member
i hope you're all eyes as well.
http://msucares.com/crops/cotton/discussion.html
as you can see, marijuana plants aren't the only crop that people tend to defoliate.
Cotton Production in Mississippi
Defoliation General Discussion
Deciding when to defoliate a crop is an important decision from several stand points. If the crop is defoliated too soon, yields, quality and profits suffer. On the other hand, depending on the location and the field condition, delaying defoliation may increase likelihood of additional insect problems, or delaying harvest into bad weather which will effect yield and profits. That is why defoliation decisions must be based on the crop and the crop environment. Plant maturity is perhaps the most important factor, but other factors such as picking capacity, custom harvesting, and weather are also important.
Defoliation is an important management practice associated with high yields and high quality cotton. The decision as to how and when to remove the leaves and open the bolls appears to be one of the more difficult tasks confronting a cotton grower. There are so many variables involved that the results of harvest aid applications are often unpredictable and sometimes even undesirable. You would think that after more than 40 years of research in this area we could obtain desirable results under all circumstances. However, this is not always true, and we often have failures. Thus, defoliation has come to be considered as much art as science.
There are many benefits that can be expected from a good defoliation job. Many experiments have shown that defoliation improves picker efficiency in fields with large green plants. Additionally, defoliated fields tend to dry out faster, permit more picking hours per day and allow picking sooner after rain. Defoliation also cuts off the food supply to late season insects that are entering diapause. Under certain conditions, defoliation has reduced boll rot by creating better drying conditions in the field. This is especially true in rank cotton.
Defoliation may also have some disadvantages and limitations. When plants are defoliated, the fiber and seed development essentially stops. Therefore, if too many bolls are immature at the time of application there can be a reduction in yield and quality associated with the treatment.
Cotton leaves have a mechanism that causes them to fall from the plant after they become senescent. This physiological process which involves the separation of living tissue from the living plant occurs in a specialized zone located near the base of the leaf petiole referred to as the "abscission zone". Abscission occurs due to enzyme activity within this zone and is regulated by hormones which are produced in the leaf. This regulation occurs as a resulting gradient in hormone concentration between the main-stem side and the leaf side of the abscission zone. The enzymes that are in this zone dissolve the cell walls, and the weight of leaf. Wind will cause the leaf to drop from the plant. Young, actively growing leaves produce an abundance of hormones which are translocated down the petiole to the main-stem. This tends to keep the leaf on the plant. As the leaf becomes older and more mature, hormone production decreases and the leaf becomes more susceptible to senescence factors such as hormone imbalances and defoliation. Factors other than age may also upset the hormone balance in the leaf. Some of these factors are injury, insect damage, disease, nutrient stress, water stress, cold stress or chemical injury. These injuries may upset the hormonal balance and initiate the abscission process and cause the leaves to fall from the plant much like an application of defoliant.
Basically, a defoliant chemical is designed to inflict sufficient injury to the leaf to upset the hormone balance at the abscission zone and allow enzymes to begin the abscission process. If too much chemical is applied, the leaf may be killed before the hormone imbalance occurs resulting in "stuck" leaves. If too little is applied the abscission process may not be initiated and result in a complete failure.
There are several factors which will directly impact the effect a defoliate chemical application may have. These are the condition of the plant, weather conditions at the time of application and for a couple of days after, and the chemical itself. The first two of these are by far the most important, and both must be within a reasonable range of limits in order for any of the chemicals to work.
Plant Effect: Plants are more easily defoliated when the cultural practices followed throughout the growing season are designed to promote well-fruited plants that mature evenly and early. This includes uniform stands, adequate but not excessive moisture and fertilization, and proper, well-timed insect, disease, and weed control. Proper management of the plant canopy with a Plant Growth Regulator may be beneficial in many cases. Generally speaking, defoliation is more easily accomplished when the plants have stopped both vegetative and reproductive growth, or if they have completely cut out. The ideal situation would be for the plant to reach maturity and run out of nitrogen and water at the same time. That rarely occurs in a field situation so we have to do the best we can.
Weather Effect: Weather conditions at the time of application, and for a few days afterwards, have a tremendous influence on the effectiveness of any of the harvest-aid chemicals and/or combinations. Weather conditions are perhaps the most important factor directly effecting the efficiency of defoliation attempts. As mentioned before, defoliation is a physiological process, and the physiological processes within the cotton plant are regulated by temperature. As the temperature is lowered, processes are slowed down and will completely halt at about 60F. Therefore, it is very difficult to defoliate cotton when the temperature gets down around 60F, plus or minus, for a few days around the time of application.
High humidity at the time of application is helpful to insure the defoliants work well. This permits the chemical to stay on the leaf in a liquid state for a longer period of time, giving more time for absorption of the chemical into the leaf. Also, when atmospheric moisture is high, evaporation and transpiration are reduced, and thus the moisture content of the leaf remains high, which aids in movement of the defoliation chemical.
Cotton plants are more responsive to defoliant chemicals when the sun is shining than on a cloudy day. The reason for this is not fully understood. It is assumed that the temperatures are a little bit lower under cloudy conditions. However, some research in Arizona has shown that even if the temperatures remain high, the response is slower under dark (relative) conditions than under light conditions. Therefore, sunlight does have some effect on response.
Chemical Effect: There are several chemicals available for defoliation, and all are equally effective when plant and environmental conditions are favorable for defoliation and they are applied in accordance with their label. For material information CLICK HERE.
There are other materials on the market for use in defoliation and countless combinations for numerous situations. You should select the material which will best fit the field situation. Note: Any mention of a product does not constitute an endorsement, nor does the omission of a product mean that it will not work in harvest aid applications.
Application: The application of these products is very, very important. None of the defoliant chemicals are considered to be very systemic, and thus none will translocate within the plant. In order for any leaf to fall from the plant, it must receive a sufficient amount of material to initiate the abscission process. For this reason the spray volume should be higher with defoliants than with insecticides. With ground equipment, at least 10 gallons per acre should be used and at least 5 gallons per acre with aerial equipment.
Preconditioning: Often a grower may be tempted to do what may be refer to as "precondition" the crop for defoliation. This can be very risky, and I do not recommend this practice. What some people refer to as "preconditioning" is the application of a low rate of defoliant chemical a week or 10 days before the regular defoliant treatment is to be applied. If conditions are right, it is possible that this may cause too much leaf drop and reduce both yield and fiber quality. Sometimes a grower may get by with this, but due to the variables involved it is very, very risky.
Timing: Deciding when to apply the chemical is often a tough decision to make. Above all else, the decision should be based on the maturity of the plants and field. Harvest schedules and prevailing weather conditions and forecast are also prominent considerations. For all practical purposes, the maturation processes stop when the leaves are taken off a cotton plant. Anytime that the decision is made to apply a defoliant or harvest aid chemical, there will probably be some immature bolls on the plant. However, a grower cannot wait until 100% of the bolls are mature; some will have to be sacrificed. As a general rule of thumb, the last boll to be consistently picked will probably be the first position boll on the 4th or 5th node down from the terminal. The maturity of this boll should be used as the key for timing an application of defoliant. The yield and quality of the bottom crop and middle crop is far more important than those last 2 or 3 little tiny bolls in the terminal. This decision is often hard to make. For more information on timing,CLICK HERE.
In closing, let me make one last point. Defoliation chemicals and boll openers do not contribute to maturity; they simply take the leaves off and crack bolls open at whatever stage of development the crop is in. A cotton crop should be at the desired stage of maturity when a harvest aid chemical is applied. Field examination is critical for defoliation decisions.
Fresh 2 De@th
Well-Known Member
no need to daddio, you spreading the word is more than enough.
i think most tend to overdo or misuse this technique and when they do, they are quick to blame the technique rather than blaming their self. also, most just aren't that good at growing as they think they are.
common sense tells me that if you periodically take fans off and your plants suffers from it, maybe your plant wasn't all that healthy as you thought they were from the very beginning.
i suggest some of you so called pros get back to the basics before you start joining forums claiming to be master growers.
Adjorr
Well-Known Member
while I personaly don't believe in heavy defoliation I did find this article I saw on High times rather interesting http://www.hightimes.com/read/30-more-yield-indoor-pot-grow-advice
Fresh 2 De@th
Well-Known Member
i can't believe you even wasted the peoples time posting some shit like that.
stretch is in the genetics. unless you use something like Phosphoload (funny how this supplement was made to that prevent or slow down stretch and yet your studies says it promotes it), Gravity, BushMaster etc, or training techniques that i stated in an earlier post, your plants will stretch. how much? it all depends on the genetic makeup of the variety that is in question.
AimAim
Well-Known Member
I would encourage you to read the article you quoted, specifically: " When plants are defoliated, the fiber and seed development essentially stops."
And, as a person who grew up in cotton country, I can assure you they do NOT defoliate to increase production. They defoliate (with paraquat or similar defoliating type chemicals) to enable them to HARVEST their crop with modern machinery. If you would read the article you quoted you would see that defoliation has nothing to do with production, it just facilitates harvesting.
Note in my post #27 I specifically said " can someone name ONE other crop where defoliation is used to increase production of fruits or flowers?"
So nice try on the cotton, where defoliation is 0% about increasing production and 100% about facilitating harvest.
Try again.....
And, as a person who grew up in cotton country, I can assure you they do NOT defoliate to increase production. They defoliate (with paraquat or similar defoliating type chemicals) to enable them to HARVEST their crop with modern machinery. If you would read the article you quoted you would see that defoliation has nothing to do with production, it just facilitates harvesting.
Note in my post #27 I specifically said " can someone name ONE other crop where defoliation is used to increase production of fruits or flowers?"
So nice try on the cotton, where defoliation is 0% about increasing production and 100% about facilitating harvest.
Try again.....
PetFlora
Well-Known Member
Too much WW too soon (before buds are ~ 3-4 weeks old) will also cause stretch. I got a first hand view this grow
Fresh 2 De@th
Well-Known Member
no nice try on your behalf, because it seems as if you took what you wanted from the read and left out the rest.
is this what you were referring to?
- Defoliation may also have some disadvantages and limitations. When plants are defoliated, the fiber and seed development essentially stops. Therefore, if too many bolls are immature at the time of application there can be a reduction in yield and quality associated with the treatment.
the part you seemed to miss
- Deciding when to defoliate a crop is an important decision from several stand points. If the crop is defoliated too soon, yields, quality and profits suffer. On the other hand, depending on the location and the field condition, delaying defoliation may increase likelihood of additional insect problems, or delaying harvest into bad weather which will effect yield and profits. That is why defoliation decisions must be based on the crop and the crop environment. Plant maturity is perhaps the most important factor, but other factors such as picking capacity, custom harvesting, and weather are also important.
now, if you notice or understand the very beginning or first paragraph of this read, along with the rest of the findings i posted, it clearly explains or answers your weak point that you failed to make. next time put a lil more thought into your post before you contradict yourself or prove to be wrong again.
fssalaska
Well-Known Member
The money is in growing more in less space and having nice lower buds. If your into growing one plant with training and a 2 month veg theres no need for defoliation, but if your growing 15 plants in a packed SOG 4 x 8 defoliation in late flowering is the best way to get your max yield.
dannyboy602
Well-Known Member
selective pruning (pruning limbs, and the leaves they produce) among fruit trees leads to larger fruit on the remaining branches. pruning roses by eliminating weaker canes (and the leaves thereon) produces a healthier plant. pruning out popcorn on lower stems of cannabis redistributes energy to the preferable, larger buds in the upper canopy. it may or may not lead to a quantitative difference but definitely leads to a qualitative difference.
fssalaska
Well-Known Member
OK, just for grins, can someone name ONE other crop where defoliation is used to increase production of fruits or flowers? Like crops grown by people that farm and know what they are doing and depend on their skills just to keep on truckin' and keep the farm going?
I'm all ears......
Most fruits or flowers are not grown in a small room inside your house in a tight space so off the top of my head hmm NO.