I actually believe in God

[Beefbisquit]

No, you're not being slow, it gets confusing. Prayer seems to be asking god to veer from a determined course or divine plan. As an omnipotent and omniscient creature, could he do this? I like the way this guy puts it -

It is commonly claimed that God is both omniscient and omnipotent. I don't think that God can be both at the same time.

Omnipotence means that God is all-powerful, and is able to do anything he likes. Omniscience means that God knows everything.

Now, if God is omniscient, then He already knows at any given time what he will do in the future, because he can see the future. He's all-seeing, after all.

But if God already knows what he will do at every moment in the future, then God has no free will. He cannot choose to do something different from what he already knows he will do. And therefore, he is not all-powerful. In fact, it could be argued that He has no power at all...

Great post, T.D.; ironed out the kinks quite nicely, and I'd never thought about it like that before!

 

[nameno]

I to started out believing,then quit and lived my way after25 years of that I came to believe more than ever.
I saw him work in my very own life,time after time it didn't happen overnight but the more I studied the stronger my faith got.
I found it hard to understand the bible,but it started getting easier then I came across scripture explaining how
if I didn't believe I couldn't understand.Now it gets better every day. Oh it's still life with problems and all but
it sure feels good that he's got my back and forgives my sins.If I would listen closer (working on it) it would be easier.
Obedience or disobedience gets a reaction.
That's how it is for me,after all he has done for me all I can say is Glory to GOD!

 

[Beefbisquit]

Requiring faith in order to understand something sounds like special pleading to me.

 

[Greenkid777]

Requiring faith in order to understand something sounds like special pleading to me.

Why would that be special pleading? Why wouldn't God ask for devotion before revealing truths to individuals?

 

[Beefbisquit]

Why would that be special pleading? Why wouldn't God ask for devotion before revealing truths to individuals?

Why would god claim to love us, claim to be perfect, and claim to want whats best for us when he can't be bothered to prove his existence?

What other aspect of your life does believing in something before the evidence is presented, make sense? That's like a jury going into a courtroom with their verdict before seeing the evidence from the defense or prosecution.

 

[MojoRison]

I'm not a believer of gods nor do I begrudge a man his faith.
Welcome to RIU

 

[Nevaeh420]

The reason I replied to your post is because I was confused. The second coming of you, Jesus, Gods son, said to be a God himself... Struggles with his belief in God? I dont get it. Would you ever conclude that there probably isnt a 'God' yet still believe you are Jesus? I believe a lot of us are gods and if that were to be true then 'God' did come to be through processes that are more natural than previously thought.

Im not Jesus because My name is George Manuel Oliveira but i am Christ. I dont think im God either because... well there are many reasons why Im not God, for one Im 100% human. But many people on RIU have called Me Jesus, so you're not the only one. If anything, Im the Second Coming of Christ if Jesus was the first Christ.

I used to have strong beliefs in God but Ive seen the Atheists rebuttals and they argue some good points. Im on the fence, now, when it comes to God. Im sure that there is a highest power in our universe but I dont know who or what or where or when or how or why. I believe that im a prophet with the title of Christ but I certainly dont have all the answers.

Even if there was no God, I would still believe Im Christ because I truly believe Im some kind of Prophet and I would love to see My prophecies of peace and prosperity be fulfilled.

I also believe we are all gods but none of us are God, not even Me. I still believe God created the multiverse and He could be seeding a trillion universes per second in the great unknowing.

You guys cant ask God any questions but you can ask Me/Christ a million. I will be honest and tell you what I know.

~PEACE~

 

[Zaehet Strife]

You guys cant ask God any questions but you can ask Me/Christ a million. I will be honest and tell you what I know.

Actually this guy is a fraud, i really believed him and asked to be his follower and asked what i could do to be saved... motha fucka just said "shit bro, i don't know, do what you want!"

The real jesus wouldn't say that...

 

[spandy]

But why the dichotomy? Either existence is "an accident" with no creator, or created by a creator, but why are those the only two options?

Why couldn't existence simply happen by natural processes and what we experience is the result of that?

I wasn't debating it with you dude, just telling you what I believe.

 

[Padawanbater2]

I wasn't debating it with you dude, just telling you what I believe.

Why do you believe that?

 

[Greenkid777]

Why would god claim to love us, claim to be perfect, and claim to want whats best for us when he can't be bothered to prove his existence?

What other aspect of your life does believing in something before the evidence is presented, make sense? That's like a jury going into a courtroom with their verdict before seeing the evidence from the defense or prosecution.

The thing is, God has proved his existence in my life through many things. And this often took place when I'd decided to abandon any notion of a God. What I was asking was not whether or not God would prove his existence to an unbeliever, but rather why would God reveal more about his personal nature (whether it be the nature of God, understanding spiritual truths, prophecy, etc.) to an individual who showed no devotion to him.

 

[Greenkid777]

I have a question I'd like to ask you guys. This is something I'd thought a lot about, especially during bouts of spiritual dilemma.

Let's say for a second that there is no God (though I have no notion in my mind that this is true). If there is no God, then there is no such thing as morality. Yes you can say that there are wrongs (murder for example) that are generally shunned by modern civilizations. But if there is no higher power, than these are simply man made notions. If there is no God, then in a sense, right and wrong are whatever you personally believe. And adhering to any moral code set forth by others would be nerfing yourself.

Take this for example. One may believe that the murder of another for outright personal gain is wrong. But another may say that if said gain is used to take care of his and his own, then the positives (the furtherance of his and his own) outweigh the negatives (the decimation of another, in which the first has no personal connection or care). Others may say that this is immoral. But if there is no governing force in the universe, why wouldn't one commit such an act as long as consequences could effectively be avoided.

That is what I don't understand about the reasoning of many atheists I have come into contact with. They speak of equality for all, a brotherhood of man. But with an absence of God, these sound like nothing more than "feel goods." It would only make sense to facilitate gain at the expense of others, after all is that not what evolution is all about? The strong become stronger, and the weak perish?

 

[MojoRison]

The lack of belief in a diety does not equate the lack of a moral compass.
Man is and always will be his worst enemy.
And for all intents and purposes "god" is just a "feel good" notion, strickly IMO.

 

[Padawanbater2]

The thing is, God has proved his existence in my life through many things. And this often took place when I'd decided to abandon any notion of a God. What I was asking was not whether or not God would prove his existence to an unbeliever, but rather why would God reveal more about his personal nature (whether it be the nature of God, understanding spiritual truths, prophecy, etc.) to an individual who showed no devotion to him.

Why would someone worship such a being?

That seems extremely childish to me, definitely not the quality of an omnipotent being

 

[Padawanbater2]

I have a question I'd like to ask you guys. This is something I'd thought a lot about, especially during bouts of spiritual dilemma.

Let's say for a second that there is no God (though I have no notion in my mind that this is true). If there is no God, then there is no such thing as morality. Yes you can say that there are wrongs (murder for example) that are generally shunned by modern civilizations. But if there is no higher power, than these are simply man made notions. If there is no God, then in a sense, right and wrong are whatever you personally believe. And adhering to any moral code set forth by others would be nerfing yourself.

Take this for example. One may believe that the murder of another for outright personal gain is wrong. But another may say that if said gain is used to take care of his and his own, then the positives (the furtherance of his and his own) outweigh the negatives (the decimation of another, in which the first has no personal connection or care). Others may say that this is immoral. But if there is no governing force in the universe, why wouldn't one commit such an act as long as consequences could effectively be avoided.

That is what I don't understand about the reasoning of many atheists I have come into contact with. They speak of equality for all, a brotherhood of man. But with an absence of God, these sound like nothing more than "feel goods." It would only make sense to facilitate gain at the expense of others, after all is that not what evolution is all about? The strong become stronger, and the weak perish?

This is exactly why organized religion is so dangerous.

 

[Beefbisquit]

The thing is, God has proved his existence in my life through many things. And this often took place when I'd decided to abandon any notion of a God. What I was asking was not whether or not God would prove his existence to an unbeliever, but rather why would God reveal more about his personal nature (whether it be the nature of God, understanding spiritual truths, prophecy, etc.) to an individual who showed no devotion to him.

To each his own I guess.

I've never experienced anything that would be better explained by god, than a natural phenomenon. Whenever anyone has attempted to tell me about their personal experiences with god, it's not convincing to me because I approach it the same way; I attribute it to the most likely cause, which is always something tangible and never something supernatural. Barring personal revelation, there has never been any documented and verified supernatural communication.

So, to me it makes zero sense to revel in or worship something that hasn't been demonstrated to exist in the hopes that you might learn something about an undocumented entity that may or may not exist.

 

[Beefbisquit]

I have a question I'd like to ask you guys. This is something I'd thought a lot about, especially during bouts of spiritual dilemma.

Let's say for a second that there is no God (though I have no notion in my mind that this is true). If there is no God, then there is no such thing as morality. Yes you can say that there are wrongs (murder for example) that are generally shunned by modern civilizations. But if there is no higher power, than these are simply man made notions. If there is no God, then in a sense, right and wrong are whatever you personally believe. And adhering to any moral code set forth by others would be nerfing yourself.

Take this for example. One may believe that the murder of another for outright personal gain is wrong. But another may say that if said gain is used to take care of his and his own, then the positives (the furtherance of his and his own) outweigh the negatives (the decimation of another, in which the first has no personal connection or care). Others may say that this is immoral. But if there is no governing force in the universe, why wouldn't one commit such an act as long as consequences could effectively be avoided.

That is what I don't understand about the reasoning of many atheists I have come into contact with. They speak of equality for all, a brotherhood of man. But with an absence of God, these sound like nothing more than "feel goods." It would only make sense to facilitate gain at the expense of others, after all is that not what evolution is all about? The strong become stronger, and the weak perish?

If the only reason you're doing good things is because god tells you to, you are not a moral person. I would argue that 'good' atheists are the most moral people in existence. They do good for no other reason than to do good. They expect no reward for performing said actions, and they fear no punishment for not doing them.

You're basically arguing that people who believe in god are only good because god tells them to, and they're sacred of the consequences. There's nothing moral about scaring people to action or inaction.

[video=youtube;Hj9oB4zpHww]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj9oB4zpHww[/video]

Do you prescribe to the 'divine command' theory? That whatever god says is good, is good? E.g. If god said murder was good tomorrow, murder would be good.

Or do you believe good actions are independent of what god says is good? E.g. If god said murder is good tomorrow, murder would still be wrong.

 

[guy incognito]

If there is no God, then there is no such thing as morality.

Wait, why? Are you telling me the ONLY reason you believe stealing, murder, and adultery are wrong is because your book says so? If someone had not given you a bible that explicitly stated those actions are wrong, you would have absolutely no sense of right/wrong? That is seriously fucked up dude. I can determine what is right and what is wrong based on a mutual respect with other humans. I don't commit "wrongs" because I don't want to wrong other people, not because the bible says not to. If that is the only reason you hold any morality then you are a fucked up piece of scum who I would rather not live in society with me. That's just my opinion though.

Take this for example. One may believe that the murder of another for outright personal gain is wrong. But another may say that if said gain is used to take care of his and his own, then the positives (the furtherance of his and his own) outweigh the negatives (the decimation of another, in which the first has no personal connection or care). Others may say that this is immoral. But if there is no governing force in the universe, why wouldn't one commit such an act as long as consequences could effectively be avoided.

That is what I don't understand about the reasoning of many atheists I have come into contact with. They speak of equality for all, a brotherhood of man. But with an absence of God, these sound like nothing more than "feel goods." It would only make sense to facilitate gain at the expense of others, after all is that not what evolution is all about? The strong become stronger, and the weak perish?

Why does taking god out of the equation all of a sudden mean I don't respect other people's feelings? I don't murder and rob people because it is wrong and I know it is wrong. I don't want them doing it to me and my family, so I won't do it to them and their family. I don't want people to rape me, so I won't rape other people. I don't want people to be mean to me, or steal from me either so I don't do it to other people. I don't understand how god plays any part of that agreement even slightly. Again, if your reason for not doing these "wrong" things is because god says so then you are a terrible person, or you are at least worst than an atheist who has his own moral compass outside of religion.

If it was down to me and you, and it was a matter of life and death, then sure I would slit your throat in a second. I wouldn't be happy about it, but I will do whatever I need to survive. I'm sure you and everyone else here would do the same. But it's not like that. I don't need to murder people and take their stuff to survive. Not only do I not need to do that to survive, but everyone is better off if I (or anyone really) don't do that unnecessarily.

 

[Nevaeh420]

Actually this guy is a fraud, i really believed him and asked to be his follower and asked what i could do to be saved... motha fucka just said "shit bro, i don't know, do what you want!"

The real jesus wouldn't say that...

What would "The REAL Jesus" actually say?

I'm sorry you didn't like My answer Zaehet. I'm not all "high and mighty" and know all the answers to all the questions. Is there a more ambiguous question then "How do I be saved?" You never defined what "being saved" means to you. Personally, I don't think anyone is more "saved" then anyone else. We are all equally saved, whether you're an Atheist or a Christian. Its totally irrelevant unless you define what "saved" actually means.

You don't have to be one of My followers, no one has to follow Me. I don't have any commandments for anyone, including you. I think there are enough laws in this world, you don't need any new ones. Maybe you should ask Jesus how to be "saved"... ohh, wait, Jesus has been dead for about 2,000 years or so now. What would Jesus say? I don't know what Jesus would say but I know I would say "Be on your best behavior" and I think I said that too in reply to you. And yes, you should do what you want. Why would you follow any rules that I say you must obey? I say obey your own intuition. You know whats right from wrong, do the right.

I could care less if anyone follows Me, but I also wouldn't mind if some people did. I just want to teach the esoteric knowledge that I know so we all can live in a better world. I'm only human, and I make mistakes like everyone else.

But no, I don't have any commandments for you or anyone else and I still believe you should "do what you want".

Its ok Zaehet, I still think your a cool dude and I wish the best for you. I hope that you find the answer to how to be "saved" because I don't know and I don't care. Being "saved" means nothing to Me. I'm more concerned about terraforming the earth into a paradise were no one is poor and no one is utterly rich, to get rid of the monopolies, i.e., the elites. I'm more concerned about injecting a love based, compassionate economy where everything is resource based. Being "saved" is just a thing Christians say because they think Jesus saved them from hell or whatever.

I still love you Zaehet, you're a cool dude.

What would "The REAL Jesus" actually say?

~PEACE~

 

[Greenkid777]

Forgive me for not putting quotes to each reply within this, it would take more space than necessary.

I think what I was asking was misunderstood. I don't adhere to morality only because I'm "scared" of consequences. What I was asking was rather if you could actually argue (in the absence of God) that anything is right or wrong, in an absolute sense. And in reply to Guy Incognito, how would slitting my throat to save yourself any less fucked up than murdering someone for financial gain? So your saying as long as your life isn't in danger it's wrong to kill, but as soon as you are threatened individually than you will do whatever necessary to preserve yourself? That may be how you feel, but please don't lump me in with you.

I guess I wonder how an atheist defines what is right or wrong. Is it whatever is better for a group? The majority? The elite? I can't understand why atheists scoff at the idea of the Bible, since it is believed by them to be man made and thus flawed, but wouldn't morality be the same? What makes your feelings for what is right and wrong any more valid than the next persons?