new to forum... building a 1000w hps equivalent flowering LED

[Zylev]

After reading Supra's thread, I'm eagerly planning a 182 to 196 LED light to be run @ 700mA

Due to efficiency of ballasts and diodes, this light should perform at <525W while an equivalent HPS light will use 1250W

Plant needs:
Chloraphyll A 680nm, 445-450nm
Chloraphyll B 470-480nm, 650nm
Phycoerthrin 560nm, 320nm
Phycocyanin 610nm, 360nm
Carotenoids 460nm, 500nm, 430nm

Chloraphyll A is typically 3x more prevalant in plants than Chloraphyll B

I also plan on all chips being mounted on 20mm stars so that I can drill and tap a heatsink and mount the LEDs on with BJB holders

At the moment, I'm planning on using
XT-E Royal Blue.. I believe the D6,D7 bins are the best
XT-E Warm White... possibly the 3300k (bin 7C1-Q4) but this bin is still in question???
And a deep red... at this point I was thinking Luxeon ES mounted on the Rebel Stars


as well as some supplemental lighting:
XP-E Blue (480nm bin)
microsoft SemiLED Ultraviolet Blue to stimulate trichome growth (http://www.semileds.com/system/files/P2N-U.pdf)
the SemiLED

Its important to run the Ultraviolet LEDs at or below 700mA and keep them cool

Can someone provide me suggestions/data on the Deep Red options? I understand that I can get some of the Luxeon ES ones at 670nm?
Also has anyone tried optics on their light builds?
Does anyone recommend any heatsink brands?

 

[SupraSPL]

The XTEs are available in tint 7 (3000-3200K) in R3 bin (32%) from Cutter for $3.25 on 20mm stars. I am confident that Mark is correct despite the typos on the site. If you are planning on adding any neutral white Fasttech has XML2 in 4100K T5 bin (40%) for $4.25 with coupon "BLF" thanks to budgetlightforum.

If cost is no barrier, Cutter has XML2 in 3000K T5 bin for $6.50 on 20mm stars. 5% coupon CPFDISCOUNT. That is the most efficient warm white on the market to my knowledge (40.6%)

As far as deep reds, Steves LEDs has the Luxeon ES EX6 bin last I checked and they are very cheap (38.4%). I requested the 670nm. The first time they hooked me up but the second time they sent all 660nm. They also have Luxeon ES deep blues M4R bin (55%) which should outperform the XTE deep blue top bin Q04 (50%) and they are also very cheap $3.

Another deep red option is Osram SSL 3T bin (42%) or 4T bin (48%). They are the most efficient but also the hardest to find and most expensive. For whatever reason Oslon seems to be only available in European markets. You can contact ISLED (idealspectrumled) to see what they have in stock. He might have the 4T bin available.

Sounds like a fun build. What drivers are you planning on?

 

[Zylev]

I'm planning on using the Meanwell LPC 35-700. Each can run up to 13 LEDs with a forward voltage of 3.4. I know that it will end up being a lot of drivers, but the 35-700 is the most reliable, longest-lasting driver ever manufactured. If I were to do anything dimmable, though, I would use the 40W Inventronics because these are the highest quality product AND you don't even have to tune them AND they lead the market at 88% efficiency. The Inventronics 700 runs 10-15 LEDs with a 3.4w forward voltage while the 1050 runs 6-10

 

[Zylev]

I was considering the Osrams but I really like the convenience of using 20mm stars with BJB soldierless connectors on T-slot heatsinks. No one likes to deal with 400 soldering points haha.

Also I'm planning on using Arctic Alumina thermal paste because I doubt that there is much difference when my LEDs are only cruising at 700mA. If someone thinks otherwise please LMK!

Here's the data I've compiled on the lights I plan to use

	output @350mA	430nm	445nm	460nm	470nm	500nm	560nm	610nm	650nm	680nm
Royal Blue	550mW	20%	100%	50%	20%
Ultraviolet	230mW	20%
Warm White	93.9-107la	10%	50%	25%	15%	25%	65%	100%	65%	30%
Blue	39.8la		15%	60%	100%	15%
Luxeon ES deep red EX6 - $3.40 Steves LEDs	360mW									60%

I'm needing guidance on how to balance these lights.

Here is the ratio that Supra suggested earlier this year:

7 Lux ES 660nm red
3 XP-E 630nm red
5 XT-E warm white
2 Lux ES 442nm blue

 

[Zylev]

Also it looks like the binned XT-E WW and RB (D6 & D7 bins) are cheaper on reefLEDlights.com... that's also where I'm planning on ordering the Meanwell LPC 35-700s

 

[SupraSPL]

The Meanwell drivers are very nice quality I agree, and reasonably priced. The Inventronics also seem like a great option for those who intend to dim. I have bought and tested a variety of drivers and here are a few things of note.

I have only ever come across one driver that has a decent power factor (.9) the but most have been (.5 - .6). These are listed as 700mA but the output varies from driver to driver 670mA to 740mA. Another nice thing about these is that you can run them up to 40vF (28W) and the output does not vary as they come up to operating temperature (most drivers output decreases until they reach a stable operating temperature).

One reason you may care about power factor is if you ever plan on running them on a battery/inverter setup during a power outage. Poor power factor does not increase your electric bill but it does increase the actual current flowing in the AC power cable. This may come into play if you plan to run a very large setup on 110V. The drivers mentioned above test at about 80% efficiency (same as my meanwell 1050mA).

Another driver worth mentioning is this 650mA $6 cheapo. It is bare but it makes up for it by achieving 88-91% efficiency. You can push them hard but the output drops to about 600mA which I figure is perfect for vegging.

 

[SupraSPL]

Regarding the thermal paste you may be right since we are running them soft. One unfortunate but very important thing I have come to realize is that LED stars and heatsinks are not flat. With all my recent builds I have taken the trouble to wet sand them down with 220 grit and then with 600 grit. If you run a star or heatsink across a piece of sandpaper you will see just how bad it is. The outside edges of the star are the only bits that touch down, so all the heat has to travel through a thick layer of thermal paste. Worse, if there is an air gap some of the heat transfer is by convection. This has been true with every star from every manufacturer except the expensive copper stars which are unnecessary for our purposes.

Partially sanded star:


This step adds labor to the build and it is possible to unseat the LED dome or sand the edges of your fingers/gloves in the process. So far I have done it by hand but maybe using a palm sander would make the process easier/safer.

Using COB LEDs would greatly reduce the sanding and soldering since they would be dissipating 20w each at 700mA.

 

[Zylev]

Slightly off-subject... here is what I've been growing in a 40gal aquarium with the XT-E: 6x Q4 WW and 12x R50 CW @ <1050mA

 

[budbro18]

I didnt DIY but i was about to do a DIY multi chip or cob led light and instead bought some from grow evolution. they looked similar to what i wanted to make.

Puttin em through the first set of tests now to see if they stack up and i think they will.





Let me know what you guys think of them. the site is growevolution.com

Theres also evolution grow who makes LED too so if you google it that might show up too but disregard them. They might be good but they arent the ones im tryin out. haha.

 

[Zylev]

I didnt DIY but i was about to do a DIY multi chip or cob led light and instead bought some from grow evolution. they looked similar to what i wanted to make.

Puttin em through the first set of tests now to see if they stack up and i think they will.



View attachment 2902605View attachment 2902606

Let me know what you guys think of them. the site is growevolution.com

Theres also evolution grow who makes LED too so if you google it that might show up too but disregard them. They might be good but they arent the ones im tryin out. haha.

Interesting.

I have serious doubts because the multichip LEDs are still 1W chips underneath those lenses and therefore they are weak penetration. Multichip LEDs are just .6 or 1w chips, repackaged in a way that will find another unwitting sucker. I'm sure you've read plenty of people emphasizing 3w chips and larger, and we do this for a reason. Like most other LED aficionados, I've gone thru the rigamarole of buying dimed-out, gimmicky Chinese fixtures. I don't do that. No more talk of that crap.

Here's what to look for on any LED product:

Minimum 3W LEDs -anything less is ALWAYS copycat technology
Name Brand Chips- Cree, Luxeon, Bridgelux et. al.
Beefy- and I mean really beefy heatsink
no 10,000K diodes- thats a big red flag
Power output should be talked about in real numbers. If you buy a 300W fixture and its a 10x10 LED grid you just got gamed.
Chinese warranty- good luck on that one.

 

[budbro18]

Theyre 3w chips not 1w and i think he had them made to his specific spectrum. The panel is a 305 and draws that much power total but has the capabilities around 600 if they were all powered to full. I think theyre all 75w chips powered down half way about.


Dont think they have any 10000k in them either.

 

[Zylev]

Up to this point I have been building the lamps with approximately half red and half deep red, based on the idea that a wider spectrum might reduce the potential for saturation. As you mentioned the WW does have some red output so I took that into consideration and reduced the amount of 630nm.


In the beginning we used only 630nm because there were no deep reds worth mentioning. Once we got some decent deep reds KNNA warned that running deep red without 630nm was problematic and that the 660nm should be balanced with 630nm. I have not done any experimentation regarding red:deep red ratio, but I can say that half and half works very well and I am satisfied that less than half the wattage is required versus a bare 600 HPS (in terms of yield). I also believe that resin is improved over the HPS buds based on running the same cuttings under both conditions.
​

Ok very good to know.Would you say that WW has more royal blue/PAR than we realize?
This shows us that the blue spectrum on the XT-E whites is perfect growth color. Results from my aquarium above prove so.

http://prntscr.com/25u8w5

I am wondering if there is a lot of royal blue because of how MrFlux, in his comparison of the high CRI lights with the XT-Es, had those graphs adjusted they showed a monolithic spike of royal blue.

Also, exactly how much 630 nm PAR do these WW spit out compared to the Cree 630mn red...
or another way to word this question is what ratio of 630nm Red is emitted in comparison to the 670nm Deep red of the Luxeon ES?

But also, I just made an assumption. And that assumption is that a plant is incredibly adaptable. We know the answer is yes, but DOES Chloraphyll-A... the pigment that responds to 680nm red... adapt to respond to 670nm red? Or does it simply pick up the stray 680nm photon packets that are discharged from the emitter?

Another ratio worth experimenting with might be to reduce the usage of royal blue since the warm white blue spike may be enough for most varieties. That would simplify the design a bit but on the other hand since the royal blue has such an amazing efficiency (55%). Also, I suspect that the improvement in resin quality may be partially due to the increase in deep blue. As far as reducing the 630nm and using more WW, I don't see why not except that the XPE reds are very efficient (42%). Either way would make for an awesome growing lamp.
​

I agree entirely. I was actually thinking of running a ratio of:

[1 XPE Blue]:[1 (maybe 2) XTE RB]:[1 SL UV/indigo]:[10? or so warm-spectrum & warm-white emitters]

The XTE RB bin D6 & D7 are so badass but I think that the SemiLED Indigo will do some of the job of the XTE RB, and that job, like you said, is stimulating oil production. I question the effectiveness of light in the range below 400nm because this range stunts growth and/or damages cells. And hyperbaric chambers and greenhouses alike incorporate measures to eliminate UVA/UVB to maximize plant growth.

 

[Zylev]

Theyre 3w chips not 1w and i think he had them made to his specific spectrum. The panel is a 305 and draws that much power total but has the capabilities around 600 if they were all powered to full. I think theyre all 75w chips powered down half way about.


Dont think they have any 10000k in them either.

Then my guess is that they could be 3w chips Vf= 3.4 volts driven a @350mA. A total of 238watts... the fan and driver bring the efficiency of the AC->DC conversion down to 78%... and the final big unknown is the efficiency and luminous flux (in mW or la) of those 200 emitters.

 

[Zylev]

from what I understand, we also have a conversion challenge with colored emitters vs white (mW and la)

 

[SupraSPL]

The bud boss has a cool design especially regarding the heatsinks (assuming they were at least partially lapped). That said, I agree with Zylev the bud boss is still running way too hot. Combine that with relatively poor radiometric efficiency of the emitters and the lamp could be down in the range of 20% or less, which is similar to fluorescent and creates an awful lot of heat in a grow room. The budboss will grow bud, but so far no commercial lamp can do what DIY can do (~40%). On the other hand when you consider the cost of materials and time spent studying and constructing a DIY, you might be better off with 600 HPS unless you are an LED nerd like us. Adding a little deep blue to an HPS really does help increase frostiness.

 

[SupraSPL]

Slightly off-subject... here is what I've been growing in a 40gal aquarium with the XT-E: 6x Q4 WW and 12x R50 CW @ <1050mA

View attachment 2902538

Very nice colors! I couldn't find the XTE royal blue bins you mentioned. The top bin in the PDF is the Q group (600mw @ 350mA 85c) From my calculations it is 50% efficient (700mA 50c). LEDgroupbuy has them for $3.25 on stars and I use them in my builds and love them. That said, the Luxeon ES deep blue M4R bin beats the XTE at 55% (700mA 50c) and Steves LEDs has them for $3. I use them too and they are great. I haven't checked the efficiency yet but Steves LEDs also has 475nm blue and 495nm blue Luxeon ES.

I got a deal on some XML2 T5 neutral whites 4200K now they are growing organic peppers in my kitchen. The peppers were stunted by the cold october weather but after a few days of LED they started to grow better than ever. Right now it is running at 350mA (165lm/watt) but I can switch the driver to 700mA or 1050mA and the heatsink will stay under 40c.

 

[SupraSPL]

from what I understand, we also have a conversion challenge with colored emitters vs white (mW and la)

You are correct. The fact that manufacturers give us lumen data instead of mW output makes it very tricky to determine the actual efficiency of an emitter. MrFlux data is the best I have seen and I updated my spreadsheets with that data. For deep blue and deep red, manufacturers do give us mW output which is very helpful but we still have to account for the current and temperature droop to get the actual output.

To make it easier to compare one LED to another I normalize them to 700mA 50c and estimate the % radiometric efficiency. Once we do this it reveals the poor performers. Oslon 630nm red is one example, low radiometric efficiency due to outdated chip. Luxeon ES whites are another, poor performance because of high CRI. It also reveals that the XPE and XPE2 630nm reds are equal despite the claim that XPE2 is "15% improved". Despite that I still use the XPE 630nm red because they are the best available (~40% @ 700mA 50c).

 

[MrFlux]

I am wondering if there is a lot of royal blue because of how MrFlux, in his comparison of the high CRI lights with the XT-Es, had those graphs adjusted they showed a monolithic spike of royal blue.

The blue spike tends to look more imposing than it is. What counts is the area under the blue peak in relation to the total area under the spectrum. Compared to a royal blue XTE the peaks of the white emitters are completely dwarfed:

 

[guod]

nice MrFlux

and now Please the them for the red Part...

thx

 

[MrFlux]

With a XP-E red it looks like this



Since the royal blue is more efficient it will 'win' here from the red. This is not the whole story though... When looking at the number of photons produced per Watt it is the red that wins:



XP-E red must be about the best producer of photons (per Watt) of all LEDs on the market. It's also at a wavelength that is near 100% PAR efficient.