20,000 Watt Medical Grow Op Construction

collective gardener · Feb 27, 2011

incognegro999 said:
Hey CG I am ignorant of California laws regarding MM from your post I take it that you cannot make a profit on it. Is investing money back in the op considered a profit? Like just a for instance the price is five dollars more this grow per whatever so we can add a couple new lights and C02? There is always room for improvement and I imagine people wouldnt mind a couple extra dollars to improve quality/quantity. Just curious thanks

The answer is yes. The end user price per whatever is based on the costs of producing whatever. Inour case, we took out a loan to build the grow and operate for the first few months. Our price/whatever will be based on the labor, lease, electricity, insurance, and loan payments for the period of time necessary to produce whatever. Once the loan is payed off, that line item would be removed from the costs and the price would go down for the medication. Make sense?

Now, since some costs may not be available (electricity) at the time of product sales, an estimate is put in the line item. Then, at the end of the year, we balance the books by cutting a check (or product) to all of the collective members based on any over payment. We always hedge on the high side for any estimates so that we don't have to go to the members and ask for additional money. We also round off a little for the sake of easy accounting.

In short, we estimate the costs throughout the year, and at years end, we can establish an exact per unit cost right down to the penny. We then look at how much each member spent per unit and how many units that member purchased. Then, an adjustment is made. Example: A member purchased 10 ozs at $200/oz. At year end we determine that our per/oz cost is $190. That member would get either $100, or a little more than a 1/2oz of product.

I hope this helps.

This is why any dispensary charging different prices based on quantity is actually breaking the law. The price is the price...whether the member is buying an 1/8th at a time or an Oz at a time. The price of an ounce should be 8 times the price of an 1/8th. You could argue that more transactions cost more money, but that would be a very small number, way less than the premium most places charge for buying a small quantity.

This stuff was the first thing our lawyer taught us. He also said most places do not play by these rules and are therefore just waiting to be busted by a sharp DA.

Wolverine97 · Feb 27, 2011

collective gardener said:
The answer is yes. The end user price per whatever is based on the costs of producing whatever. Inour case, we took out a loan to build the grow and operate for the first few months. Our price/whatever will be based on the labor, lease, electricity, insurance, and loan payments for the period of time necessary to produce whatever. Once the loan is payed off, that line item would be removed from the costs and the price would go down for the medication. Make sense?

Now, since some costs may not be available (electricity) at the time of product sales, an estimate is put in the line item. Then, at the end of the year, we balance the books by cutting a check (or product) to all of the collective members based on any over payment. We always hedge on the high side for any estimates so that we don't have to go to the members and ask for additional money. We also round off a little for the sake of easy accounting.

In short, we estimate the costs throughout the year, and at years end, we can establish an exact per unit cost right down to the penny. We then look at how much each member spent per unit and how many units that member purchased. Then, an adjustment is made. Example: A member purchased 10 ozs at $200/oz. At year end we determine that our per/oz cost is $190. That member would get either $100, or a little more than a 1/2oz of product.

I hope this helps.

This is why any dispensary charging different prices based on quantity is actually breaking the law. The price is the price...whether the member is buying an 1/8th at a time or an Oz at a time. The price of an ounce should be 8 times the price of an 1/8th. You could argue that more transactions cost more money, but that would be a very small number, way less than the premium most places charge for buying a small quantity.

This stuff was the first thing our lawyer taught us. He also said most places do not play by these rules and are therefore just waiting to be busted by a sharp DA.

Regarding different prices for smaller quantities, the thing that I see that is missing from the equation is the increased handling costs (minimal though they may be). You have more people coming through the door, more packaging to go through, more time involved for the same amount of product. I can see charging a little bit of a premium, but it should be limited to a ballpark of the actual increased cost of doing that business.

collective gardener · Feb 28, 2011

Wolverine97 said:
Regarding different prices for smaller quantities, the thing that I see that is missing from the equation is the increased handling costs (minimal though they may be). You have more people coming through the door, more packaging to go through, more time involved for the same amount of product. I can see charging a little bit of a premium, but it should be limited to a ballpark of the actual increased cost of doing that business.

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but that's what I meant above when I said ""You could argue that more transactions cost more money, but that would be a very small number, way less than the premium most places charge for buying a small quantity."

Now, how dispensaries do business is just that; their business. I would just advise any newcomers into this industry to track their costs carefully. I spent a good deal of my adult life as a senior project manager for a large construction company that did lots of cost plus work. Unfortunately, that meant considerable time in arbitration fighting for our money. Through this I learned one basic rule: If you can document a cost, you got paid for it...if you couldn't, you didn't get paid for it. This business is no different...just different outcomes. If you can document that all of the money you took in was the same as your costs, your collective is operating legally. If not, you may have some legal problems.

parabear · Feb 28, 2011

BiteSizeFreak said:
If I owned hell and Cali, I'd rent out Cali and live in hell. lol Seriously though, can't stand the place. Aside from the pretty girls and good weed laws I find nothing else redeeming about the state. I usually don't bring it up for obvious reasons lol

Anyway, I'll just kinda piece out here for a little while or this whole thread will get jacked by people mad that I don't like Cali

PS: Oh yeah, good wine too!

Hey don't worry, I used to live in Cali, within walking distance of a whole crapload of awesome dispensaries, and everything... that was about the only upside, because everything else was a major PITA... the traffic, the people, the amount of spanish anymore... I smoke pot, I don't habla the espanol.... 'nough said....

Now I live elsewhere, and have to grow my own under their respectable laws... just no dispensaries.... at least I have a variety of good strains of feminized seeds.... man I do miss picking up clones for $4 each these days... used to trade out hash for the money to buy enough clones to run a mini SOG setup, though I did clone of kick ass purple kush that was the uber shit!

parabear · Feb 28, 2011

collective gardener said:
The answer is yes. The end user price per whatever is based on the costs of producing whatever. Inour case, we took out a loan to build the grow and operate for the first few months. Our price/whatever will be based on the labor, lease, electricity, insurance, and loan payments for the period of time necessary to produce whatever. Once the loan is payed off, that line item would be removed from the costs and the price would go down for the medication. Make sense?

Now, since some costs may not be available (electricity) at the time of product sales, an estimate is put in the line item. Then, at the end of the year, we balance the books by cutting a check (or product) to all of the collective members based on any over payment. We always hedge on the high side for any estimates so that we don't have to go to the members and ask for additional money. We also round off a little for the sake of easy accounting.

In short, we estimate the costs throughout the year, and at years end, we can establish an exact per unit cost right down to the penny. We then look at how much each member spent per unit and how many units that member purchased. Then, an adjustment is made. Example: A member purchased 10 ozs at $200/oz. At year end we determine that our per/oz cost is $190. That member would get either $100, or a little more than a 1/2oz of product.

I hope this helps.

This is why any dispensary charging different prices based on quantity is actually breaking the law. The price is the price...whether the member is buying an 1/8th at a time or an Oz at a time. The price of an ounce should be 8 times the price of an 1/8th. You could argue that more transactions cost more money, but that would be a very small number, way less than the premium most places charge for buying a small quantity.

This stuff was the first thing our lawyer taught us. He also said most places do not play by these rules and are therefore just waiting to be busted by a sharp DA.

Great, tell them now... lol... now they probably will get busted, and everyone harassed!!! j/k... I hope...

You have to have the members the opportunity to 'be active members' which usually includes 'member meetings.... attendance not required' and other BS little hoops you gotta jump through. This is why there is also the non-business front co-op, that is strictly growing, everyone has paperwork, etc. but without any monetary transactions whatsoever, except privately owned equipment that is dual use, or personally donated equipment, thus completely avoiding the monetary exchange. This makes it much much easier for everyone to get together to grow a lot of pot... especially if you know one who really knows how to grow and only needs equipment, you and a few buddies get together, do the paperwork, pay any applicable fees, start a NFP that does not conduct any monetary transactions, and get it reg'd as a co-op. Heard that it makes it all easier, and also a good way to just get a shitload of return for your investment.

Wolverine97 · Feb 28, 2011

collective gardener said:
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but that's what I meant above when I said ""You could argue that more transactions cost more money, but that would be a very small number, way less than the premium most places charge for buying a small quantity."

Now, how dispensaries do business is just that; their business. I would just advise any newcomers into this industry to track their costs carefully. I spent a good deal of my adult life as a senior project manager for a large construction company that did lots of cost plus work. Unfortunately, that meant considerable time in arbitration fighting for our money. Through this I learned one basic rule: If you can document a cost, you got paid for it...if you couldn't, you didn't get paid for it. This business is no different...just different outcomes. If you can document that all of the money you took in was the same as your costs, your collective is operating legally. If not, you may have some legal problems.

Sorry, I must've missed it when you said that.

collective gardener · Feb 28, 2011

parabear said:
Great, tell them now... lol... now they probably will get busted, and everyone harassed!!! j/k... I hope...

You have to have the members the opportunity to 'be active members' which usually includes 'member meetings.... attendance not required' and other BS little hoops you gotta jump through. This is why there is also the non-business front co-op, that is strictly growing, everyone has paperwork, etc. but without any monetary transactions whatsoever, except privately owned equipment that is dual use, or personally donated equipment, thus completely avoiding the monetary exchange. This makes it much much easier for everyone to get together to grow a lot of pot... especially if you know one who really knows how to grow and only needs equipment, you and a few buddies get together, do the paperwork, pay any applicable fees, start a NFP that does not conduct any monetary transactions, and get it reg'd as a co-op. Heard that it makes it all easier, and also a good way to just get a shitload of return for your investment.

Please be careful using generalizations regarding complicated legal matters in a system that's not even fleshed out yet. I would hate for a "couple of buddies to get together" ..."do the paperwork"...and "get a shitload of return on their investment". That "shitload" is exactly what we've been saying here cannot happen.

Keep in mind a "Collective Association" does not require registration of any kind. This is why we chose it as our structure. We have no storefront, but can legally exchange money between members in the "closed loop".

collective gardener · Feb 28, 2011

We're getting way off topic here and it's my fault. I'm now going to the grow and am going to take a bunch of pics to share. Any pic requests? I'll check RIU from the grow and take whatever angles people want. Anyways, let's grow some killer weed and help others do the same. Let's put away the 400's and bust out some 1000's.; Let's start working together to get everyone 2 grams/watt.

I'm fucking pumped. We have 6 - 1000 watt and 2 - 600 watt ballasts arriving today or tomorrow. We need to put in the vent ducting for them today. Helper D and I put in the sub panel yesterday. We also have some big ol' carbon filters coming...10" x 39". The stink is a coming and we will be ready.

Now, we're back on topic. No more legal talk for a while, anyways. It's a total buzz kill.

incognegro999 · Feb 28, 2011

waiting on those pics haha. Love seeing big grows

Luger187 · Feb 28, 2011

collective gardener said:
Thank you for getting involved. I'd like the info, however, we're trying to #1 deal directly with patients and #2 work locally. I'm sure, however, that we could donate some trim so long as the trim we donate goes to the patients without charge. Thanks again.

collective gardener said:
We're getting way off topic here and it's my fault. I'm now going to the grow and am going to take a bunch of pics to share. Any pic requests? I'll check RIU from the grow and take whatever angles people want. Anyways, let's grow some killer weed and help others do the same. Let's put away the 400's and bust out some 1000's.; Let's start working together to get everyone 2 grams/watt.

I'm fucking pumped. We have 6 - 1000 watt and 2 - 600 watt ballasts arriving today or tomorrow. We need to put in the vent ducting for them today. Helper D and I put in the sub panel yesterday. We also have some big ol' carbon filters coming...10" x 39". The stink is a coming and we will be ready.

Now, we're back on topic. No more legal talk for a while, anyways. It's a total buzz kill.

u may have answered this already, but what soil r u guys usin?
what do u use for runoff trays? i remember one pic where helper D was sitting down, and it looked like a big bag of soil in a plastic bucket. thats what the plastic bucket is for right? do u guys have to remove the plant to empty the runoff water? or is there enough space between the bag of soil and bucket to fit the pump hose in?

chiefmanuel · Feb 28, 2011

Gopedxr said:
Were can I get my state card? I have my rec and all but i am in socal as well and would like my state card. Or do I become apart of the collective?

if u live in LA take your rec to the health dept and pay the fee and u fill out the application and thats it and its a couty Id card. the state of california left it up to the individual countys to set up a medical identification card for patients with doctors recomendations

TheLastWood · Feb 28, 2011

Keep up the good work man, I like ur style. Forget all the mumbo jumbo and grow some dank. Enough of a hassle without arguing about technicalities n whatnot.

chiefmanuel · Feb 28, 2011

thats right

sensisensai · Feb 28, 2011

Impressive at the least. Subbed

southside420 · Feb 28, 2011

collective gardener said:
We're getting way off topic here and it's my fault. I'm now going to the grow and am going to take a bunch of pics to share. Any pic requests? I'll check RIU from the grow and take whatever angles people want. Anyways, let's grow some killer weed and help others do the same. Let's put away the 400's and bust out some 1000's.; Let's start working together to get everyone 2 grams/watt.

I'm fucking pumped. We have 6 - 1000 watt and 2 - 600 watt ballasts arriving today or tomorrow. We need to put in the vent ducting for them today. Helper D and I put in the sub panel yesterday. We also have some big ol' carbon filters coming...10" x 39". The stink is a coming and we will be ready.

Now, we're back on topic. No more legal talk for a while, anyways. It's a total buzz kill.

I would personally like to see the infrastructure setup (power/ventilation/irrigation?) on a grow this size. Also maybe a bird´s eye view of the whole room so we can see how things are laid out. If there is anything flowering, bud porn is always a plus! Thx CG

southside420 · Feb 28, 2011

collective gardener said:
I'm now going to the grow and am going to take a bunch of pics to share. Any pic requests? I'll check RIU from the grow and take whatever angles people want.

I have an IT background so please don´t take this as me being paranoid, I know just how easily people get traced online. This is a handy tool for anyone stuck in a situation where they have to research, post, order stuff online, etc.. from their grow location, or whoever just wants some anonymity online. - https://www.torproject.org/ . Hope this helps guys, stay safe, keep it green..or purple.

collective gardener · Feb 28, 2011

incognegro999 said:
waiting on those pics haha. Love seeing big grows

We had a big shopping spree today: 6 - 1000 watt Ballasts, 6 - 600 watt Ballasts, Digilux bulbs for all, a couple reflectors, 2 - 10" Inline Fans, 1 - 8" Inline Fan, 2 - 8" Booster Fans, 2 - 6" Booster Fans, a bunch of ducting and fittings, 70 Pint Dehumidifier, 12,000btu Portabe Air Conditioner, Rope Ratchets, and some rough electrical gear. All told: $6,200. We're expecting delivery on 2 - 10" x 39" carbon filters tomorrow...just in time!

The bloom room is way too crowded. We're installing 6 new 1000 watt lights tomorrow. We spent today getting parts and installing a new sub-panel for the lights and cooling fans. Once the new lights are in, we can bring about 6 more plants in from the veg room to fill out the flower room. Then we'll hang 4 - 600 watt bare bulbs around a few smaller un topped Lavander crosses I have just for this purpose.

Here's 9 Bubba Kush plants 2 weeks into bloom. They're in 10 gallon buckets with Sunshine #4. I'm switching to this great coarse/fine coco blend I found for all future planting

This Bubba is 3 weeks into bloom. I'm very happy with the amount of bud sites and the current size. I'm going to go out on a limb an estimate this plant will yield 6ozs.

Here's a close up on a Bubba 3 weeks into bloom. By tomorrow night these girls are going to be getting blasted with alot more light than they have right now. These first couple crops are all about getting a feel for canopy shape, training, and light distribution. This is my first grow with real plant limits. Typically with a grow this size I'd have...well...uhhhh...let's just say alot more plants than I have here. So, we're trying to get a feel for how to maximize yield with only about 45 plants in an 8 x 24 foot area under 12,000+ watts of light. The other 45 plants are in the veg room, and I reserve 9 plant spots for a mother or 2 and some new strains.

collective gardener · Feb 28, 2011

Luger187 said:
u may have answered this already, but what soil r u guys usin?
what do u use for runoff trays? i remember one pic where helper D was sitting down, and it looked like a big bag of soil in a plastic bucket. thats what the plastic bucket is for right? do u guys have to remove the plant to empty the runoff water? or is there enough space between the bag of soil and bucket to fit the pump hose in?

We're growing in Sunshine #4, but are switching to coco on all future planting. We use 5 and 10 gallon nursery pots. The pots must be removed from their drain buckets to drain them off. I'll be installing a suction tube in each drain bucket so Helper D can just hook the pump out hose to it and suck it dry.

collective gardener · Feb 28, 2011

southside420 said:
I would personally like to see the infrastructure setup (power/ventilation/irrigation?) on a grow this size. Also maybe a bird´s eye view of the whole room so we can see how things are laid out. If there is anything flowering, bud porn is always a plus! Thx CG

I'll get you some pics of the electrical, plumbing, and HVAC. Getting a bird's eye view is impossible. I tried. Even with my 10' ceilings and the camera up in the joists, I just can't get more than about half the room. I do have some picks of when we were framing that may give you a better perspective. I posted the plants 3 weeks into bloom. Not quite porn yet...softcore, maybe.

RC7 · Feb 28, 2011

amazing setup, everything looks excellent! definitely subscribed +rep

20,000 Watt Medical Grow Op Construction

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