3.19 umol/j

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Another thing to remember is that the whole study was made under monocromatic conditions; they only tested one nm value at a time, never the efficiency of the whole spectrum put together.
Which would mean McCree didn't measure the quenching effect of far red on the red end of the spectrum – otherwise known as the Emerson Effect. All I know is when I started seriously testing LEDs five years ago I noticed the effects of far red straight away. I also noticed the effects on yield of lower CCTs, which aligned with my experiences growing under HPS, MH and even fluroros (way back in the day).

This is why theory is good, but practice is better.
 

Grow Lights Australia

Well-Known Member
Dr. Bruce Bugbee came out with an ePAR that includes far reds and uv
The Apogee ePAR meters do not really cover the UV range. The spectral response curve starts to drop off at 450nm and then really drops off at 400nm. That is why Apogee describes it as a "400-750nm" meter. If you want to measure UV you need a different meter. The Mammoth light you posted has no UV. You have to add it separately. Our light has built-in UVA that runs on the same channel and it comes from the 405nm diodes that are also photosynthetically active. Very few LED grow lights cover the 400-420nm range and below. The Nichia 405nm diode we use covers around 385-440nm. It is incredibly efficient at around 72%. Nichia make the most efficient UV diodes. 2.71 umol/j is very high for a UV diode – probably the most efficient of any UV diode on the market. Technically 405nm is not in the UV range but it spills into the UVA range and gives us the photomorphogenic response we want. We have access to some very good light-testing equipment through our partnership with LED Teknik.

Screenshot 2023-10-21 at 2.33.45 pm.png
 

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
And we have an $80,000 Viso Systems LabSpion Goniometer.

Your point?
For those who dont know: this goniometer s a device which just like a par meter/spectrometer measures par intensity and spectrum but it also measures it in all different angles so it can calculate ppf/w efficiency (just as a sphere test but better suitable for uni directional light) aswell as light throw: how the lightsource throws light around the space. Using this light throw data you can build a virtual light fixture out of for ex strips and simulate your light intensity in 3D space.
Very nifty for a led builder.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Nothing just stating
OK. So are you just in this thread to drop names like Mammoth and Apogee? Because it would be helpful if you could add something that we don't already know. Or maybe ask genuine questions instead of just "product placement".

There is another reason we have no plans to add 530nm diodes to our products and that is one of efficiency. Green is valuable to human lighting because the human eye perceives green (around 555nm) brighter than other colours (blue, then red). But green diodes are the least efficient of the three RGB colours. They are half the theoretical maximum efficiency of 660nm and less than half of 450nm blue. They are less than 2/3 the efficiency of white phosphor diodes (~5000K) that already contain a significant amount of green phosphor. We already use 5000K white diodes for this reason.

When looking at the value of a diode in relation ot horticultural spectrum, there are a number of things to consider:

Overall efficiency – some diodes are more efficient than others, which means they convert more energy to light (and less to heat), which is a good thing. Except . . .

Photosynthetic efficiency – the most efficient diode colour is not necessarily the most efficient driver of photosynthesis. Red is the most efficient, followed by blue, followed by green (the exact opposite of human-centric lighting that weights green, blue and red in that order). Except . . .

Photomorphology – Far red diodes have a theoretical energy efficiency in line with white phosphor diodes, but until recently were thought to have little photosynthetic value (something we have known a long time – at least 3-4 years before Bugbee started spruiking his Apogee ePAR meters). But not only does it have photosynthetic value by boosting the efficiency of red light (Emerson Effect) – as well as regulating the flowering cycle (which can accelerate flowering), it causes cell expansion which can be desireable if you steer it towards larger leaf surface area that can capture more photons (and compound photosynthesis). It can also cause a moderate amount of internodal stretch to allow better light penetration of the entire plant. Conversely, blue is very efficient (in terms of energy consumption and photosynthesis), but it causes cell contraction, which is not always a desirable trait in the plants you are growing (it stunts growth and reduces fowering yield). However, you may want to use blue light to keep your plants compact, or produce thicker leaves (edible leafy greens) or boost by-products of photosynthesis which include . .

Secondary metabolites – These are all the things plants produce that are not primary metabilites used for growth, reproduction and plant health. Some secondary metabolites – such as cannabinoids and terpenes – are desirable. And studies have shown that some wavelengths such as deep blue, violet and ultra-violet can stimulate secondary metabolite production. However, this usually comes at the expense of primary metabolite production, which means there is a trade-off between "quality" and "quantity".

Which brings us back to green light. It is the most ineffcient colour to produce (except as a by-product of white phopsphor technology), it is the most efficient colour to photosynthesise (penetrates leaves deeper), it has the least abosorption (most of it is reflected), but it has the most canopy penetration (apart from far red light, which penetrates further). It does not appear to have any photomorphogenic value.

So what is the argument for using more green over red or blue or UVA or far red light . . . or an optimal combination of all spectra? Are you getting more yield, or does that come at the cost of more energy consumption? Does it accelerate flowering? Does it produce more secondary metabolites? What is the total outcome of all these variables?

Go watch a couple of YouTube videos on growing under each colour to see the answer. Here's one to get you started:

 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Would like to see what yall could throw together with high power diodes , this post made me check out yalls site. very impresssive. I'm a diy led grower In America and if your boards were easier access people around my parts would be buying them I can have a diablo board sitting on my porch in 3 days for $129 us last I checked. Do you have a vendor here?
We don't have a distributor in the US. I wonder how much those Diablo boards would be if they added UVA and Far Red? Remember, that is an added cost that you don't need to spend on ours. And you only need one driver, as our UVA/Far Red run on one channel with all the other diodes.

When you say "Would like to see what yall could throw together with high power diodes" which diodes are you talking about? We already add high-powered 405, 660 and 730 diodes to our boards.
 

thisusernameisnottaken

Well-Known Member
We don't have a distributor in the US. I wonder how much those Diablo boards would be if they added UVA and Far Red? Remember, that is an added cost that you don't need to spend on ours. And you only need one driver, as our UVA/Far Red run on one channel with all the other diodes.

When you say "Would like to see what yall could throw together with high power diodes" which diodes are you talking about? We already add high-powered 405, 660 and 730 diodes to our boards.
Website?
 

Thundercat

Well-Known Member
We don't have a distributor in the US. I wonder how much those Diablo boards would be if they added UVA and Far Red? Remember, that is an added cost that you don't need to spend on ours. And you only need one driver, as our UVA/Far Red run on one channel with all the other diodes.

When you say "Would like to see what yall could throw together with high power diodes" which diodes are you talking about? We already add high-powered 405, 660 and 730 diodes to our boards.
Any idea how much shipping to Oregon might cost? I've been watching you guys develop from the beginning and love your approach. It seems like you've got an excellent product and have really put the work into dialing it in. I also love to support RIU family whenever possible.
 

sfw1960

Well-Known Member
One in the US would be too much for me to take!
Sure I like HLG but the metrics don't lie.
I'd love to lay hands on some of the panels and strips and it would be a better thing than the chinese imitation ones I very rarely hang and use. These look good and I could definitely do a comparison between lights (especially softly driven - my M.O.) with the same strains PLUS I love me some DIY goodness! System efficiency is one thing that often gets avoided but not here.
Nice stuff!
 

Jonesfamily7715

Well-Known Member
With the new advancements in high power whites at cree and nichia that efficiency gap between high and mid power is closing, regardless do you remember the old qb96 boards (I shouldnt mention other company's in your post, apologies. ) anyways just for reference, they weren't the most efficient or best, but people still to this day love them. Or like the old style diy cob setups we could hang em a mile high. I love what you guys are doing going in a diffrent direction than literally 95% of the stuff out there. A million lm301 diode with a few reds is not the future of this industry.
 

Jonesfamily7715

Well-Known Member
We don't have a distributor in the US. I wonder how much those Diablo boards would be if they added UVA and Far Red? Remember, that is an added cost that you don't need to spend on ours. And you only need one driver, as our UVA/Far Red run on one channel with all the other diodes.

When you say "Would like to see what yall could throw together with high power diodes" which diodes are you talking about? We already add high-powered 405, 660 and 730 diodes to our boards.
I have to use flourecents for uv and diy for ir, or nir all that adds up definitely
 

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
With the new advancements in high power whites at cree and nichia that efficiency gap between high and mid power is closing, regardless do you remember the old qb96 boards (I shouldnt mention other company's in your post, apologies. ) anyways just for reference, they weren't the most efficient or best, but people still to this day love them. Or like the old style diy cob setups we could hang em a mile high. I love what you guys are doing going in a diffrent direction than literally 95% of the stuff out there. A million lm301 diode with a few reds is not the future of this industry.
When TEKNIK was still around he had equipment for testing ppf/w: the high power whites never seemed to live up to the numbers the datasheet promised. Could have something to do with temps: most datasheets use numbers for pulsed measurements; temps arent factored in. When you do continuous operation those numbers fall more for highpower diodes; they seem to run a bit hotter than midpowers. I remember Cutter would promise 3.0 ppf/w based on datasheets and product calculators but infact TEKNIK told me he never seen a highpower white higher then 2.5 at nominal. Not sure what the situation is today
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
www.growlightsaustralia.com

I am not the official rep for GLA – he is also on the boards @Grow Lights Australia

Growing is still illegal here in Australia so while I design the LED panels and do a lot of the test grows, I stay at arm's length from the company and let the other guys run it. There is another Australian company LED Teknik (who used to be on RIU but got banned – that's another story, lol!) who does our LED testing and supplies some of the custom LEDs we use. There is a partnership arrangement with Grow Lights Australia and LED Teknik, though it is a cooperative agreement and not an official stake-holding partnership.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Any idea how much shipping to Oregon might cost? I've been watching you guys develop from the beginning and love your approach. It seems like you've got an excellent product and have really put the work into dialing it in. I also love to support RIU family whenever possible.
I'm not sure. It would depend on what you want. GLA does driverless kits that are cheaper to purchase and ship, as you can buy your own driver cheaper and the kits come pre-assembled with the correct plug end for the thrid-party driver.

I know we have shipped a lot of panels and assembled lights to the US oer the years, so it's certainly doable.

I will ask @Grow Lights Australia to have a look at this thread and answer any business-related questions.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
With the new advancements in high power whites at cree and nichia that efficiency gap between high and mid power is closing, regardless do you remember the old qb96 boards (I shouldnt mention other company's in your post, apologies. ) anyways just for reference, they weren't the most efficient or best, but people still to this day love them. Or like the old style diy cob setups we could hang em a mile high. I love what you guys are doing going in a diffrent direction than literally 95% of the stuff out there. A million lm301 diode with a few reds is not the future of this industry.
Yes. I built some QB96s for a freind some years ago – I actually mentioned this in another thread. They worked really well, but the diodes desoldered themselves because the QB96s got too hot on the supplied pincushion heatsinks. So they didn't last long. Too many high-powered diodes on a small (and thin) PCB.

I (personally) don't mind you mentioning other companies in this thread – even though I didn't start it, lol! But I was getting a little annoyed with the other guy because he kept name-dropping instead of avctually discussing the merits of the products he was mentioning.

I have no issue wth anyone discussing other products as long as they want to discuss them by looking at the pros and cons. That's what we're all here for – to learn and improve.

When TEKNIK was still around he had equipment for testing ppf/w: the high power whites never seemed to live up to the numbers the datasheet promised. Could have something to do with temps: most datasheets use numbers for pulsed measurements; temps arent factored in. When you do continuous operation those numbers fall more for highpower diodes; they seem to run a bit hotter than midpowers. I remember Cutter would promise 3.0 ppf/w based on datasheets and product calculators but infact TEKNIK told me he never seen a highpower white higher then 2.5 at nominal. Not sure what the situation is today
Nichia sent me a report a couple of years ago that they asked me to keep confidential comparing their 757 series with Samsung's LM301 series showing that Samsung had inflated its figures and that the Nichias were in fact 5% more efficient.

However, the Samsung diodes used in the test were off-the-shelf and Samsung may well have made a bin that was higher but was not readily available, whereas Nichia used a "typical" flux bin to make the comparisons.

And that's what people forget: just because Samsung can make a 3.14 umol/j chip doesn't mean you can buy it. We use Nichia 5000K CRI70 chips that have been tested at 3.14 umol/j but we also paid for the real top-bin diodes to get the highest available flux bin. We weren't concerned about colour bins, but we also match voltage bins, so when we buy diodes they have to be within 0.1V (Ie; the same voltage bins) and then we select the highest flux bin we can reliably get.

FWIW Sumsung ha coe a long way and I dfon't think Teknik has tested the new Evo chips yet, but I would expect to see the "off-the-shelf" Evos performing under the advertised efficiency for the above reasons.
 

Grow Lights Australia

Well-Known Member
Any idea how much shipping to Oregon might cost? I've been watching you guys develop from the beginning and love your approach. It seems like you've got an excellent product and have really put the work into dialing it in. I also love to support RIU family whenever possible.
Hi Thundercat if you would like to email me and let me know what you are interested in then I can give you a shipping quote.

Email info@growlightsaustralia.com

If you check out the prices on our website, don't forget the following:

All prices are in Australian Dollars (cheaper than USD)
All prices are 10% less for international buyers (no Sales Tax)
All prices are a further 10% less for RIU forum members (use code FORUM)

Discounts apply to all items, even discounted items (unless stated).

We will work with you on the cheapest shipping options and we only charge actual shipping – there are no handling fees or other charges. We will also undervalue the shipment to reduce any taxes or duties at your end. All shipping is in discreet plain cardboard boxes and labelled as "Gift or Sample".

The great thing about our new High Light 420 strips is that they will mount to common T-slot. We recommend using either or these profiles:

8020 Silver: https://8020.net/25-5013.html
8020 Black: https://8020.net/25-5013-black-fb.html
Item Light series: https://www.item24.com/en-be/profile-6-60x12-light-natural-45165
 

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
Hi Thundercat if you would like to email me and let me know what you are interested in then I can give you a shipping quote.

Email info@growlightsaustralia.com

If you check out the prices on our website, don't forget the following:

All prices are in Australian Dollars (cheaper than USD)
All prices are 10% less for international buyers (no Sales Tax)
All prices are a further 10% less for RIU forum members (use code FORUM)

Discounts apply to all items, even discounted items (unless stated).

We will work with you on the cheapest shipping options and we only charge actual shipping – there are no handling fees or other charges. We will also undervalue the shipment to reduce any taxes or duties at your end. All shipping is in discreet plain cardboard boxes and labelled as "Gift or Sample".

The great thing about our new High Light 420 strips is that they will mount to common T-slot. We recommend using either or these profiles:

8020 Silver: https://8020.net/25-5013.html
8020 Black: https://8020.net/25-5013-black-fb.html
Item Light series: https://www.item24.com/en-be/profile-6-60x12-light-natural-45165
What kind of temp increase do you get with these heatsinks when running the strips at recommended 50w? Using 50cm of sinking per strip.
 
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