4 leaf sets per node?????

Candybeast said:

I don't think I ever used any of these terms, except for whorled phyllotaxy. Which I found on Google. Which is my only reference point alot of times. I am simply describing what I see. Not giving botany classes. I have never contended that this was a good or bad. Neither did I claim to have any knowledge of advanced botany. I simply said something interesting is happening. That I hadn't seen it before. And asking for opinions or advice or to just simply write it down. Mainly I would like to hear from someone who grew this particular strain. Thank you though.

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Your last post has the words triploidism, hermaphoditism and whorlled phylotaxy in. Far from advanced biology yet but i hope you can see that all this stuff is bad if you see it in your plants. Good luck.

I can see how it could be. But I can also see the benefits. I'm not going to discount a plant. That by all means looks vey healthy. Because you or even ten people had a bad experience. Every strain is different. Hopefully I learn something new from this and if you could stop judging my lack of botany linguistics maybe you can too. I plan to grow this plant out along with her sister. And we will do a side by side at the end. I will add a grow journal later. Then we can determine if it was as you say not good.
Here are two pics from the morning after a topped for last time and today. Five days and this is the recovery. If it hasn't stunted the plant . The only thing I am really worried about is yield and you guys say potency. Stay tuned I guess.

And I fixed my previous post to not be misleading

Sire Killem All said:

@GroErr might disagree, he is breeding to stabilize the triployd trait is one of jhis strains

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Thanks but not exactly, what I have is two of them (whorlled phylotaxy, triploid, tri-leaf pheno, mutants whatever you want to call it)) coming up, first one turned out male (pollen collected/stored), second one is still in a cup and hoping it's a female. Everything I've read is pointing to a mutation and apparently it cannot be passed on. But I figure if the second one is female, the chances of passing that mutation through would be better and if the opportunity presents itself (2nd one sexes female), then I'll give it a go and cross them. Worst case scenario is I get some extra seeds to share. If there is a chance of passing on the mutation, crossing a mutant male x mutant fem is probably about the best chance of doing it. Who knows, but it's worth a try if the stars align and I get 1x male and 1x fem...

Too bad @Sativied hasn't been around lately, would love to hear his take on whorlled phylotaxy and how it relates to breeding, he's like the king of it around here.

Cheers...

Candybeast said:

I can see how it could be. But I can also see the benefits. I'm not going to discount a plant. That by all means looks vey healthy. Because you or even ten people had a bad experience. Every strain is different. Hopefully I learn something new from this and if you could stop judging my lack of botany linguistics maybe you can too. I plan to grow this plant out along with her sister. And we will do a side by side at the end. I will add a grow journal later. Then we can determine if it was as you say not good.
Here are two pics from the morning after a topped for last time and today. Five days and this is the recovery. If it hasn't stunted the plant . The only thing I am really worried about is yield and you guys say potency. Stay tuned I guess.

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Its hard to get potent whorlled bud as with all them extra nodes and leaves theres not a lot of actual bud, probably why they dont taste good as smoking stem sucks.

^agreed
Decent hash material at best.

GroErr said:

Thanks but not exactly, what I have is two of them (whorlled phylotaxy, triploid, tri-leaf pheno, mutants whatever you want to call it)) coming up, first one turned out male (pollen collected/stored), second one is still in a cup and hoping it's a female. Everything I've read is pointing to a mutation and apparently it cannot be passed on. But I figure if the second one is female, the chances of passing that mutation through would be better and if the opportunity presents itself (2nd one sexes female), then I'll give it a go and cross them. Worst case scenario is I get some extra seeds to share. If there is a chance of passing on the mutation, crossing a mutant male x mutant fem is probably about the best chance of doing it. Who knows, but it's worth a try if the stars align and I get 1x male and 1x fem...

Too bad @Sativied hasn't been around lately, would love to hear his take on whorlled phylotaxy and how it relates to breeding, he's like the king of it around here.

Cheers...

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I would hope Sativied would agree with a lot of what im saying, certainly he has a handle on the more complicated points. If you post up in advanced he seems to be there quite often.

HydroRed said:

^agreed
Decent hash material at best.

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Like even if this was genetic its not desirable, worst bud ive ever grown or smoked...

No, I surely wouldn't seek it out to consume in any way really but it was a trip to watch grow. Not fun to trim/dry/smoke. Once was enough for me lol

Kingrow1 said:

I would hope Sativied would agree with a lot of what im saying, certainly he has a handle on the more complicated points. If you post up in advanced he seems to be there quite often.

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yeah I haven't seen him post anywhere for a while, could be on a sabbatical or just pissed off at the site

GroErr said:

yeah I haven't seen him post anywhere for a while, could be on a sabbatical or just pissed off at the site

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Lol he liked your post, certainly intresting to hear his veiws.

GroErr said:

Too bad @Sativied hasn't been around lately, would love to hear his take on whorlled phylotaxy and how it relates to breeding, he's like the king of it around here.

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You rang? I still check up on your thread occasionally, just takes too many clicks to like anything while account is on slomo.

Triploid refers to the sets of chromosomes. Cannabis is normally a diploid, as in 2 sets of 10 chromosomes (10 from each parent). A triploid has an additional set, as in three. A tetraploid has 4. More than two is called polyploidy.

The pollen as well as the female ovule contains a haploid. (If you cultivate that in TC and self it you get a truebred on every level.)

Now, most, if not all triploids and tetraploids express whorled phyllotaxy. The simplest way to define that is more than two leaves (and thus axilarry branches / buds) per node. It is like a spiral, but with three or more at the same level. Most plants with whorled phyllotaxy however are not actually polyploids.

Trifoliate refers to a single leaf only. The tri there refers to the number of leaflets/blades on a leaf, not the number of leaves on the axis. It has zero to do with whorled phyllotaxy. Phyllotaxy litterally means leaf arrangement

Trifoliate maple:



Cannabis has palmately compound leaves. The second set of true leaves on most cannabis plants are trifoliate.


Yeah hehehe, they said penis. And nice cotton plant...

Mutations are simply changes in the genetic code and changes can be good or bad. Our eyes, and penis, all caused by ancenstors mutating. The changed code (genes) usually inherits, but that doesn't mean the trait does. That depends on what else the parent and what the other parent contributes, on dominance, so a lot on what you cross it with. I have one inbred line that produces over 50% whorlers (as I call plants with whorled phyllotaxy), 3 outcrosses of which two produce over half whorlers (up to 80% given enough nodes), and the other just some (long stretchy almost hemp like). From F1-F3. I'm expecting results of dna analysis of three of my whorlers soon. Not all whorlers (phenotype) have the same underlying genetic mutation (not the same genotype), and there are phenotypical differences too. I've grown out at least a hundred over the past years.

Potency is not related unless its has whorled phyllotaxy because it's a polyploid (
extremely rare). Those would actually produce more cannabinoids but also come with several downsides. More often it is caused by a different cytokinin and auxin balance.

For completeness, a cannabis seedling starts out as a dicot nornally. As in two cotyledons. Sometimes they are tricots, some times quads. The tricots and up usually express whorled phyllotaxy too. New leaves always appear at the furthest distance from the previous (see Hofmeister rule for more info). A set of leaves is rotated half the degrees between two leaves. So with a regular opposite phyllotaxy plant that means a set of two leaves is rotated 90 degrees, and it will look like a plus sign from the top.

Like this:

Light will litterally hit some of the ground. Triwhorled phyllotaxy is factually better phyllotaxy for intercepting light. Doesn't mean every tri is better than regular. Two different things.

It's an extreme example cause many varieties do not stay this perfect opposite throughout the bud site. When whorled phyllotaxy matures and alternates you get what many plants have normally, spiral phyllotaxy, but with shorter node distance. Whorled phyllotaxy applies mostly during veg. It does not determine bud structure nor its leafiness.

Spiral:

(Both are PCK from Ace, not my whorlers, just for illustration).

People tend to freak out when you claim you have genetics that produce more than regular plants but I've been logging them for years now and for my whorlers it's as obvious as the increased veg rate. That is true for tris only though, I don't like quads. The tris have 6 non-overlappig leaves per axis. Regular phyllotaxy and quad whorled have only 4. This combined with the exponential growth of plants results in fast vegging. Also nice to have 6 non-overlapping bud sites (obvious for those who follow UB topping technique).



Regular - spiral (like spiral stair) - whorled phyllotaxy


Largest cola is fasciated (which is like a mutant whorler lol, too much, way too leafy), second largest is quad, then a tri whorled, and two regular collettes... Just one of many examples I logged elsewhere.








Typical Sativied-whorler (yeah i just said that lol)

Mine don't start as tricot but as regular dicots. After X nodes one leaf deviates, usually at a perfect golden angle. My breeding efforts never went into getting it to inherit, but to stablize when they whorl and how long. Tricots and up often become whorlers but often grow out of it. Mine basically grow into it.

In short, whorled phyllotaxy can have several causes and by itself doesn't automatically mean much more than the obvious physical difference. The outcome, whether postive of negative, depends a lot on what variety it is in as well as on how they are grown. If they are broad leaflet varieties and/or leafy and/or very shortnoded already, it's best to veg till alternating nodes or simply top/prune/train as desired.

Scratch that i didnt read it right. I agree with all youve said, well worded and great knowledge. This is also my experience with this

Thanks for your article bro. You've convinced me to go with my gut feeling in the beginning. I may have grown only 2-3 years. But I've delved deep into this. I can't stop. What you said about the leaf deviating to be offset from its counterpart. That's exactly what This cheese pheno did. sativied, have you ever seen anything like what this photo show the same happened on another branch but it was just one shoot instead of a pair. As you can see there is no existing leaves or internode which would normally be the precursor for new growth. These branches are now the tallest on the plant . They make up the middle portion of the plant . You can see well in this photo after I tied branches down This is the same plant exhibiting the whorled phyllotaxy.
Which you can see here.
Have you heard of Dinafems cheese doing this?

Can I ask your opinion potency and it's association with whorled traits and other similar growth patterns.

Dude i hope you can see that our info dosent deviate much, many causes, unable to breed. He talks about keeping it stable and has quite obviously taken it to the next level...

Candybeast said:

sativied, have you ever seen anything like what this photo showView attachment 3759849

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Nope, that one is new to me, thanks for sharing. It shows there is something off in the hormone production (cytokinin and auxin in this case). Did it happen after topping? Topping removes a terminal, where most auxin is produced. I can force my late whorlers (if they take too long for that deviating leaf) to whorl on branches by topping them.

Candybeast said:

Can I ask your opinion potency and it's association with whorled traits and other similar growth patterns.

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Like I said in my previous post, there is no direct relation between whorled phyllotaxy and potency. Not an obvious one anyway. It is possible whatever is causing whorled phyllotaxy in a specific plant can also affect potency but no, whorled phyllotaxy does not create stronger weed. It creates more plant, which in the right varieties and grows can be utilized for more bud in the same time.

And you tamed it nicely with the topping and wires, that's the best way to handle them, top and spread them out.

Sativied said:

Nope, that one is new to me, thanks for sharing. It shows there is something off in the hormone production (cytokinin and auxin in this case). Did it happen after topping? Topping removes a terminal, where most auxin is produced. I can force my late whorlers (if they take too long for that deviating leaf) to whorl on branches by topping them.

Like I said in my previous post, there is no direct relation between whorled phyllotaxy and potency. Not an obvious one anyway. It is possible whatever is causing whorled phyllotaxy in a specific plant can also affect potency but no, whorled phyllotaxy does not create stronger weed. It creates more plant, which in the right varieties and grows can be utilized for more bud in the same time.

And you tamed it nicely with the topping and wires, that's the best way to handle them, top and spread them out.

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I think he is refering to the comment i and others have made about our whorlled buds tasting a bit crappy, i certainly found a lot more stem in my whorlled bud from all those extra nodes.

Yeah it happened after topping. That was kind if my feelings at first that it might be hormonal or a response to stress. It only did it on the 1st cut though. The branch that has the four nodes is the one that appeared out of no where as well. Probably why it has four nodes all bunched together. Maybe it contained the cells for two branches but they never separated or something. Sorry for the layman's terms. What strains have you had success with may I ask, sativies

Kingrow1 said:

I think he is refering to the comment i and others have made about our whorlled buds tasting a bit crappy, i certainly found a lot more stem in my whorlled bud from all those extra nodes.

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Whorled phyllotaxy affects the leaf arrangement and number and thus also the axillary branches and buds that start at those leaves, and thus indirectly the colas. It does however not affect bud structure (the inflorescence) or create more stems in the buds that make up that cola. At least it does not in my whorlers. I also don't smoke stems, and barely any leaves so those don't determine potency for me. Taste and potency, basically the chemotype, the terpene and cannabinoid profile are not affected by leaf arrangement but whatever causes whorled phyllotaxy in a specific instance indirectly might. I have had both crappy and great tasting whorlers, in very different varieties (haze to afghanica and in between), doesn't mean one caused the other.

Do you think that strains are predisposed to working? Or that it happens solely from stress? I would think it would have to have the genetics first, and then it could be brought out by stressing or I'm sure it happens on its own. like this platinum cookies plant from seed.