45 days of vegging and still no roots?

Day 66 Veg

Al B. Fuct said:

got pix? 1000 words, all that.

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Here are some pix:


My second largest.


Close up of her leaves. That burn around the edges are common on most of her lower leaves.


Closeup of my largest's leaves. Lower growth.


More close ups. This is from the middle of the plant.


My smallest. She's showing burns, but not like either of the out two. The burns are in isolated splotches.


My smallest and largest. I've pruned most of the fucked up leaves. More popped up this morning.


Another close up of my largest's leaves.

I've seen the damage to those leaves before, haven't I? You do know that leaf damage won't repair. It's the new growth looking good that we need to see.

Any chance your pH meter is lying to you? Does it calibrate OK in 4.0 & 7.0 test solns?

You have those big RW blocks in netpots... did you correct that? You needed to work in some more pellets between the blocks & the mist. This looks like a root problem, either root rot caused by overwatering or a nute lockout. You say it is 1400 @ 5.8, so if your metering isn't lying to you, that's not the problem.

You're dosing with H2O2 50% @ 1ml/L every 3-4 days?

What's the nute temp?

Al B. Fuct said:

I've seen the damage to those leaves before, haven't I? You do know that leaf damage won't repair. It's the new growth looking good that we need to see.

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Those burns on the largest are all new. I went and pruned all of the burnt leaves a couple of days ago. Leaves that were completely green before I went to bed are yellow and spotted after I wake up. The damage that I posted prior completely engulfed those leaves and they were 99% brown and curled within 2 - 3 days.

Al B. Fuct said:

Any chance your pH meter is lying to you? Does it calibrate OK in 4.0 & 7.0 test solns?

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That is a possibility. I will try to pick up some calibration soln.

Al B. Fuct said:

You have those big RW blocks in netpots... did you correct that? You needed to work in some more pellets between the blocks & the mist. This looks like a root problem, either root rot caused by overwatering or a nute lockout. You say it is 1400 @ 5.8, so if your metering isn't lying to you, that's not the problem.

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Well, you said that I should not switch back to the DWC until I had a substantial rootmass sticking extruding from the netpot. I have been waiting, but no such luck. The two largest ones are beginning to show a lot of roots at the bottom, but they refuse to extend from the netpot. All of the roots are still only to the pellets. They have stopped growing any lower for about a week now. My watering schedule has not changed and I'm still hand feeding once- twice a day. The netpot is never more than 50% full.

Don't think it's overwatering anymore, I am extremely paranoid about that, but I do think it's nute lockout. I tried the foliar feeding technique to fix that, but I'm not sure if it did anything. I still think it's some sort of Mn def.

Al B. Fuct said:

You're dosing with H2O2 50% @ 1ml/L every 3-4 days?

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I am using 30% H2O2 (all I could get) @ 2 tsp/gallon every 2 - 3 days.

Al B. Fuct said:

What's the nute temp?

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I still refrigerate my soln to help with pathogens. Typically if I am about to feed, I take out the soln and aerate it for a couple of hours to let it warm up a bit and oxygenate it. I usually aim for a temp of 20 C or warmer.

Right, you're handwatering these blocks. If roots are still not catching on, it's still too wet. Cut the watering to 1x/day. Those are really very large RW blocks and should have no trouble supplying water to small plants for at least 24h if not more. Water by the feel of the weight of the netpot & media. Don't water until they feel fairly light. We're looking for about 50% of the water to be gone before watering again.

Learn to love the metric system. It's so much easier to use than gallons & fractional ozs or teaspoons. Would be very nice if you can get yourself a 10ml syringe for measuring stuff. I get them for $0.30 each and just bought some. Would send you some but I don't really wanna know your address! The tsp measurement is rubbery, changes by country. I have 2 different sets of tsp/TBS measures in my kitchen, one set for my US cookbooks and one for Aussie recipes. OK for cooking, not so good for precise measurement. Consequently, I'm not sure if you're dosing your nutes sufficiently.

For 30% H2O2, the dosage rate should be about 2ml/L or about 8ml per US gallon. 8ml is considerably more than your avg teaspoon, but since tsp measures vary, it's really hard for me to tell you precisely what 2tsp is in ml.

Back off the watering to 1x/day and let's see what they do.

We're gonna make this work yet.

Al B. Fuct said:

Right, you're handwatering these blocks. If roots are still not catching on, it's still too wet. Cut the watering to 1x/day. Those are really very large RW blocks and should have no trouble supplying water to small plants for at least 24h if not more. Water by the feel of the weight of the netpot & media. Don't water until they feel fairly light. We're looking for about 50% of the water to be gone before watering again.

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Two of my plants are decently sized now (relatively). My first and second largest are 16 inches and 18 inches, respectively. I guess I need new names for them now. I'll call my ex-largest, Ms. A, my ex-second largest, Ms. B, and my smallest is the Runt.

Anyway, I'm am fairly confident that I am not over-watering them. In fact, I have been extra careful to not underwater them recently, because I woke up one morning to find 2 wilting plants. I sometimes water twice so that I can be sure to give a very light dunk each time without having to worry about over-wetting or drying out.

I have been using your 50% max weight policy since you started helping me out and it's definitely been making them a lot healthier.


Ms. B


Ms. A

Al B. Fuct said:

Learn to love the metric system... Consequently, I'm not sure if you're dosing your nutes sufficiently.

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What do you mean? Like I don't have enough nutes? Shouldn't the PPM be sufficient? I will grab a syringe whenever I can.

Al B. Fuct said:

For 30% H2O2, the dosage rate should be about 2ml/L or about 8ml per US gallon. 8ml is considerably more than your avg teaspoon, but since tsp measures vary, it's really hard for me to tell you precisely what 2tsp is in ml.

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Can I overdose my plants on H202? Does my damage look anything like what that would be?

Al B. Fuct said:

Back off the watering to 1x/day and let's see what they do.

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Recently, instead of a second dipping, I give the netpots a misting by my foliar feeding sprayer. Do you think that's all right?

Al B. Fuct said:

We're gonna make this work yet.

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Man, I just don't understand. How come everything seems so fucked up for me? It's been over almost 70 days now of vegging and flowering still seems like a fantasy.

Update:

Ms. B - Her minor flaws have not changed at all. There is no sign of the problem that Ms. A has. The browning of the tips of a few older fan leaves has not gotten worse. It still looks like the prior pictures I posted. She's surpassed Ms. A as my tallest, healthiest plant.

Ms. A - The problem looks like it has slowed. I am not sure why. Perhaps the foliar attempt worked? Sorry, that a lot of my pix look the same, I just want to give you plenty of info for a diagnosis- here are some pix:


This wasn't here yesterday.


This burning has been slowly growing, but not nearly as fast as pre-spray.


Does this look like the same problem as the other pix? It doesn't seem to have the same splotching of the pix above. It looks like strictly yellowing. Can I have multiple problems fucking me over at the same time?


Fan leaf close-up. This is a fairly new fan leaf.


On the other side. It's happening all over the place.


Another close-up. FUCK!!! What's wrong. This leaf was perfectly green only 3 days ago.

So what do you think? Do you think it actually is manganese deficiency? It doesn't seem to be a problem with either of the other plants. Could it be pathogens? Even if it's low in H2O2, wouldn't the refrigeration prevent that?

I hit up my hydro shop today and I picked up some 4 and 7 calibration soln. I will calibrate and see if that's the problem. I also got some stuff for an e/f system. I am ready to rock when you think I should. I also have the stuff to stick with the DWC. I think I am planning to save the e/f system for my clones.

Thanks!

BTW, would pictures of the roots help?

PS. I also set-up a couple of CO2 bottles in my cabinet. Hopefully they'll help strengthen my plants through these tough times. Any tips on best utilizing them?

edit: My response was irrelevant, I am stoned and its early and i didn't notice the other 10 pages lol

Ngozer said:

Anyway, I'm am fairly confident that I am not over-watering them. In fact, I have been extra careful to not underwater them recently, because I woke up one morning to find 2 wilting plants. I sometimes water twice so that I can be sure to give a very light dunk each time without having to worry about over-wetting or drying out.

I have been using your 50% max weight policy since you started helping me out and it's definitely been making them a lot healthier.

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Okay, we can then eliminate overwatering as a cause... I'm scratching my head now. Beyond that, the only thing I can think of to explain your leaf damage is a nute burn, but you're at 1400 @ 5.8. Might drop it to 700 for a few days and see what happens.

What do you mean? Like I don't have enough nutes? Shouldn't the PPM be sufficient? I will grab a syringe whenever I can.

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No, I was talking about the H2O2 dosage.

Can I overdose my plants on H202? Does my damage look anything like what that would be?

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I'm sure you can, but they're very tolerant of the stuff. I've rescued badly infected grows with 10ml/L one-time doses. I've never deliberately hit them with a nutty dose to see what it looks like. I have some spare clones and may just kill a few to find out.

Recently, instead of a second dipping, I give the netpots a misting by my foliar feeding sprayer. Do you think that's all right?

Click to expand...

Let's hold off on foliar feeding and spraying the netpots for now. I'm trying to eliminate causes one by one and fewer variables will be helpful.

Man, I just don't understand. How come everything seems so fucked up for me? It's been over almost 70 days now of vegging and flowering still seems like a fantasy.

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I understand your frustrations. I've been there myself. That's why I'm on here sharing what I've learned over time. I'm sure your patience is wearing thin, but bear with me.

Does this look like the same problem as the other pix? It doesn't seem to have the same splotching of the pix above. It looks like strictly yellowing. Can I have multiple problems fucking me over at the same time?

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Yes, you can have multiple problems. However, we're trying to pick apart all the inputs to see what's causing this problem for you.

So what do you think? Do you think it actually is manganese deficiency? It doesn't seem to be a problem with either of the other plants. Could it be pathogens? Even if it's low in H2O2, wouldn't the refrigeration prevent that?

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Things can go mouldy in your fridge. Storing at low temps just slows biological activity, doesn't really stop it. H2O2 removes the pathogens completely and protects from reinfection until it breaks down, anyway.

I hit up my hydro shop today and I picked up some 4 and 7 calibration soln. I will calibrate and see if that's the problem.

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Have you not had cal solns to this point or are you just suspicious that the ones you have are not OK?

I also got some stuff for an e/f system. I am ready to rock when you think I should. I also have the stuff to stick with the DWC. I think I am planning to save the e/f system for my clones.

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Good deal, but I would not be using a flood system to water clones. That's a job best done by hand, at first by measuring the weight of RW cubes but learning the feel of a properly damp cube as you go. It's way too easy to overwater RW to automate the clone watering process. Once they have some roots, they're somewhat more tolerant of slightly overshooting with watering.

BTW, would pictures of the roots help?

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More pix is always good.

PS. I also set-up a couple of CO2 bottles in my cabinet. Hopefully they'll help strengthen my plants through these tough times. Any tips on best utilizing them?

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CO2 is not really worth doing unless done right. You need to be assured that you are maintaining CO2 @ 1500ppm for most of the lights-on time. That means a tank, regulator and a controller device which manages your exhaust fans and/or aircon unit so the gas isn't blown out every time the blowers run. The controllers are not cheap, most that I would consider are over $1000.

CO2 ops are set up a bit differently. They usually employ an aircon unit which can keep recirculating air within the op to keep the gas in, while the aircon manages temp & RH.

I'm really sorry for your grief. We'll keep at this until we find the cause. Drop the nutes strength to 700ppm for the time being, let me know what happens when you get your pH ref solns and we'll sally forth from there. We will eventually get you some usable mums and get a harvest out for you.

Al B. Fuct said:

No, I was talking about the H2O2 dosage.

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I got a syringe and I dosed my soln with 8 ml/g of H2O2.

Al B. Fuct said:

I'm sure you can, but they're very tolerant of the stuff. I've rescued badly infected grows with 10ml/L one-time doses. I've never deliberately hit them with a nutty dose to see what it looks like. I have some spare clones and may just kill a few to find out.

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Let me know what you find out. I wouldn't mind giving them more H2O2 if they want it.

Al B. Fuct said:

Let's hold off on foliar feeding and spraying the netpots for now. I'm trying to eliminate causes one by one and fewer variables will be helpful.

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Will do.

Al B. Fuct said:

I understand your frustrations. I've been there myself. That's why I'm on here sharing what I've learned over time. I'm sure your patience is wearing thin, but bear with me.

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I'm trying. Everyday makes me hungrier for homegrown.

Al B. Fuct said:

Have you not had cal solns to this point or are you just suspicious that the ones you have are not OK?

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I didn't have a buffer soln. I've only owned the meter for about a month and a half so I didn't think that I'd need any yet.

Al B. Fuct said:

Good deal, but I would not be using a flood system to water clones. That's a job best done by hand, at first by measuring the weight of RW cubes but learning the feel of a properly damp cube as you go. It's way too easy to overwater RW to automate the clone watering process. Once they have some roots, they're somewhat more tolerant of slightly overshooting with watering.

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What I meant is that I'd use the E/B system for the rooted clones in my flowering chamber.

Al B. Fuct said:

More pix is always good.

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Ms. A






Ms. B

Al B. Fuct said:

CO2 is not really worth doing unless done right. You need to be assured that you are maintaining CO2 @ 1500ppm for most of the lights-on time. That means a tank, regulator and a controller device which manages your exhaust fans and/or aircon unit so the gas isn't blown out every time the blowers run. The controllers are not cheap, most that I would consider are over $1000.

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I have my exhaust fan set to alternate 15 mins on and 30 mins off. I figure some extra CO2 wouldn't hurt.

Al B. Fuct said:

I'm really sorry for your grief. We'll keep at this until we find the cause. Drop the nutes strength to 700ppm for the time being, let me know what happens when you get your pH ref solns and we'll sally forth from there. We will eventually get you some usable mums and get a harvest out for you.

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Sounds good. I'll see how that goes.

Ngozer said:

I got a syringe and I dosed my soln with 8 ml/g of H2O2.

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ok, cool

Let me know what you find out. I wouldn't mind giving them more H2O2 if they want it.

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8ml/gal will do for now

I didn't have a buffer soln. I've only owned the meter for about a month and a half so I didn't think that I'd need any yet.

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I believe we have found the problem. Without pH 4 & 7 reference solutions, you cannot calibrate your pH meter. The meter must be calibrated before EACH use. The pH meter tip must be stored damp. Put a small bit of sponge in the meter cap. I think that when you calibrate the meter then go dip your nutrients, you'll find the pH is fairly well off, probably high. I think you are seeing a Mg lockout from an excessively high pH.

What I meant is that I'd use the E/B system for the rooted clones in my flowering chamber.

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ah, ok

Root pix look great!

Now, if you intend to water those with DWC, there needs to be a 1" layer of pellets all around the RW block. The RW cannot be directly exposed to mist from the DWC. Obviously the mist will go right through the netpot. The roots will find their way into the pellets but they must be damp for them to do so. You need to find a bigger netpot, remove bits of the RW cube that doesn't have any roots in it or something to get some pellets between the cube and the DWC mist.

If you intend to water them with a flood system, the pellets should be much deeper, so there's enough pellets to form a rootmass in the pellets. The RW cube must be nested in pellets but the cube must be 1/2" above the flood level. The flood level must not touch the RW cube.

Now that you have roots out of the cubes, you can do either one, but should be done rather soon.

I have my exhaust fan set to alternate 15 mins on and 30 mins off. I figure some extra CO2 wouldn't hurt.

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Well, it won't help either if the exhaust blower is removing the gas from the room every time it runs.

Let me know how you go with getting more pellets in the netpots, whether you're going to run a flood sys or DWC and what happens when you cal the pH meter.

Al B. Fuct said:

I believe we have found the problem. Without pH 4 & 7 reference solutions, you cannot calibrate your pH meter. The meter must be calibrated before EACH use. The pH meter tip must be stored damp. Put a small bit of sponge in the meter cap. I think that when you calibrate the meter then go dip your nutrients, you'll find the pH is fairly well off, probably high. I think you are seeing a Mg lockout from an excessively high pH.

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I too had been having horrific problems with my op. My spirits are high and I am definitely learning a TON and will not make the same mistakes twice...I hope! Anyhow...I too had been using an electronic pH pen for about a month. I calibrated it when I got it, but I had been lazy about ordering the calibration solutions. Long story short...I thought my pH was 5.8. It was actually 4.3. Bad jewjew!

Calibrate often!!!

If you intend to water them with a flood system, the pellets should be much deeper, so there's enough pellets to form a rootmass in the pellets. The RW cube must be nested in pellets but the cube must be 1/2" above the flood level. The flood level must not touch the RW cube.

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I also repaired ANOTHER cardinal sin today...when I put my RW cubes in my e&f pots I put the bottom of the RW about 1/4 inch into the flood level. Again...bad jewjew! When the system flooded today I gently lifted the cubes 1/2 inch above the flood level. I am using Hydroton pellets, so when the system flooded the pellets became buoyant and it was very easy to gently lift the RW blocks up.

There was NOT a lot of root mass and I figured there would be a LOT more after a couple weeks in the hydroponic system. My bad!

Hey Al...will the plants recover? I'll keep watering them by hand until the roots structure gets built up enough to feed from the e&f. The RW is drying out and the plants didn't wilt from shock. I cut back watering to 3X daily (0600,1200,1800hours). I cut back the nutes to ec 1.4. Why? I don't know. The new growth was very light green, so I upped it back to 1.78. pH is 5.8. Ionic nutes. 140L res inoc w/250ml 35% H2O2 every 3 days.

I need a better pH pen!

corral hollow kid said:

Hey Al...will the plants recover? I'll keep watering them by hand until the roots structure gets built up enough to feed from the e&f. The RW is drying out and the plants didn't wilt from shock.

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Yes, if you get the watering right, they'll make a new rootmass in 7-10 days. Poor Ngozer is struggling through the same thing at the moment.

I cut back watering to 3X daily (0600,1200,1800hours).

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If you are only flooding the pellets, it's OK to flood frequently. It's only when you saturate a RW cube often that you'll have trouble. Now that you've raised the RW block, things will improve. If you are wetting pellets only and the RW is about 1/2" above the flood level, it's OK to water with the flood sys.

I prefer not to water in later than 2h before lights off, unless you have extraordinarily vigorous plants that really need it. Plants don't take up much if any water during lights-off.

If your lights-on period is 0600-1800, flood your pellets for 3-4 mins (or however long it takes your pump to raise the level to the the overflow) at 0600, 0800, 1000, 1400 & 1600.

I cut back the nutes to ec 1.4. Why? I don't know. The new growth was very light green, so I upped it back to 1.78. pH is 5.8. Ionic nutes. 140L res inoc w/250ml 35% H2O2 every 3 days.

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I know your meter displays in EC, but could you kindly do me a small favour? It'd be really helpful to me if you can quote your nute strength figs in ppm when asking me questions. One of us is gonna have to go look up the conversion and I'm a fairly lazy bastard.

The H2O2 is good, that'll help recover your root system faster.

I need a better pH pen!

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They all kinda suck to some degree. The process that reasonably priced pH pens use requires frequent calibration, a pain in the ass compared to nute meters, most which don't require any calibration at all. The test of a good pH meter is long term reliability. I use Eutech pHScan1 meters, got two of them. They are waterproof, with rubber gaskets on the batt cover & on the user-replaceable pH electrode fitting. About $115, replacement tips are about $60 every 2 years. Dead-nuts reliable.

Al B. Fuct said:

Yes, if you get the watering right, they'll make a new rootmass in 7-10 days. Poor Ngozer is struggling through the same thing at the moment.

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Damn Ngozer...sorry dude. Keep in touch and we'll compare recovery sessions!!! The Al B. Fuct clinic for the growing impaired!!!

If you are only flooding the pellets, it's OK to flood frequently. It's only when you saturate a RW cube often that you'll have trouble. Now that you've raised the RW block, things will improve. If you are wetting pellets only and the RW is about 1/2" above the flood level, it's OK to water with the flood sys.

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Cool.

I prefer not to water in later than 2h before lights off, unless you have extraordinarily vigorous plants that really need it. Plants don't take up much if any water during lights-off.

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Lights off at zero hour, no water after 2200 hours. I saw you post that that somewhere else too!

If your lights-on period is 0600-1800, flood your pellets for 3-4 mins (or however long it takes your pump to raise the level to the the overflow) at 0600, 0800, 1000, 1400 & 1600.

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Ok. I flood every 2 hours from 0600 to 2200 horus.

I know your meter displays in EC, but could you kindly do me a small favour? It'd be really helpful to me if you can quote your nute strength figs in ppm when asking me questions. One of us is gonna have to go look up the conversion and I'm a fairly lazy bastard.

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Me 2! Here's the link I used to get these figures:

Convert EC / PPM measurements

1.4 ec = 980ppm 1.8 ec = 1260ppm I hope that's OK for the little ladies? They seem to like the higher ppm better right now. In veg 18/6.

The H2O2 is good, that'll help recover your root system faster.

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Cool...I need faster!!!

They all kinda suck to some degree. The process that reasonably priced pH pens use requires frequent calibration, a pain in the ass compared to nute meters, most which don't require any calibration at all. The test of a good pH meter is long term reliability. I use Eutech pHScan1 meters, got two of them. They are waterproof, with rubber gaskets on the batt cover & on the user-replaceable pH electrode fitting. About $115, replacement tips are about $60 every 2 years. Dead-nuts reliable.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the information. I'll look into a nute meter. Sounds like the most accurate and ease of maintenance way to go!

Thanks again Al!!!

corral hollow kid said:

1.4 ec = 980ppm 1.8 ec = 1260ppm I hope that's OK for the little ladies? They seem to like the higher ppm better right now. In veg 18/6.

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yep, that's fine, I run my mums about 1600-1800. They like a good feed under 24h light.

Thanks for the information. I'll look into a nute meter. Sounds like the most accurate and ease of maintenance way to go!

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If you need a nute meter, look at the Bluelab Truncheon (and avoid any Chinese copies of it).



Mine is more than 8 yrs old, never any trouble.

Al B. Fuct said:

I believe we have found the problem. Without pH 4 & 7 reference solutions, you cannot calibrate your pH meter. The meter must be calibrated before EACH use. The pH meter tip must be stored damp. Put a small bit of sponge in the meter cap. I think that when you calibrate the meter then go dip your nutrients, you'll find the pH is fairly well off, probably high. I think you are seeing a Mg lockout from an excessively high pH.

Click to expand...

When I got my meter, the guy told me about keeping the sensor moist, but not about the calibration. I read the manual and it recommended once a month. It was only about a couple of months old so I didn't think it was a pressing matter. I won't make that mistake again!

After trying out some calibration soln I kept getting an error message. I went to my hydroshop to see what was up and they ended up replacing it. Turns out all my readings were high! Instead of 5.8, the pH was actually in the mid-4's.

So it's been a couple of days of proper soln and the plants look great. The first day of proper pH actually showed a bit of yellowing, but that cleared up pretty quickly. I guess it was just a bit of shock?

Al B. Fuct said:

Root pix look great!

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Thanks! I'm surprised that they look as good as they do considering the whole pH debacle.

Al B. Fuct said:

If you intend to water them with a flood system, the pellets should be much deeper, so there's enough pellets to form a rootmass in the pellets. The RW cube must be nested in pellets but the cube must be 1/2" above the flood level. The flood level must not touch the RW cube.

Now that you have roots out of the cubes, you can do either one, but should be done rather soon.

Click to expand...

I've decided to just go with an e/f system for now. I got everything set up and it's been going for 2 days. Here are some pix:

Al B. Fuct said:

Let me know how you go with getting more pellets in the netpots, whether you're going to run a flood sys or DWC and what happens when you cal the pH meter.

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That about wraps it up thus far. What do ya think?

Ngozer said:

When I got my meter, the guy told me about keeping the sensor moist, but not about the calibration. I read the manual and it recommended once a month. It was only about a couple of months old so I didn't think it was a pressing matter. I won't make that mistake again!

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1x/mo sounds pretty optimistic. Were I you, I'd cal that thing every time for a while until you're sure it's right.

After trying out some calibration soln I kept getting an error message. I went to my hydroshop to see what was up and they ended up replacing it. Turns out all my readings were high! Instead of 5.8, the pH was actually in the mid-4's.

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fuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuck

You have the legal right in most states to go kill the hydro shop & the meter maker...

So it's been a couple of days of proper soln and the plants look great. The first day of proper pH actually showed a bit of yellowing, but that cleared up pretty quickly. I guess it was just a bit of shock?

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Beats hell out of me, I'm just happy that it's correct now.

Thanks! I'm surprised that they look as good as they do considering the whole pH debacle.

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you & me both.



No need for pellets in the tub/flood tray.



see you scored a bake-a-round tube. That'll make a noice cooltoob.

Things are looking up, glad you found the dodgy pH meter problem; had me scratchin the ol noggin.

Al B. Fuct said:

1x/mo sounds pretty optimistic. Were I you, I'd cal that thing every time for a while until you're sure it's right.

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Next time I get the chance I'm going to go pick up some bottles of cal buffer.

Al B. Fuct said:

Beats hell out of me, I'm just happy that it's correct now.

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You can say that again.

Al B. Fuct said:

No need for pellets in the tub/flood tray.

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The reason I tried the pellets is because I thought I was going to have a problem filling up the tray to the right height since my reservoir is fair small. There are still bends to iron out of my design and right now I am redesigning it to be pellet-less.

Al B. Fuct said:

see you scored a bake-a-round tube. That'll make a noice cooltoob.

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Yeah, this is what I was originally planning to use, but then I scored a decent deal on a SunLeaves reflector, which is what I'm using now.

Al B. Fuct said:

Things are looking up, glad you found the dodgy pH meter problem; had me scratchin the ol noggin.

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Yeah, for the most parts things are looking up. The E/F system is still giving me problems, so not everything is rosy yet.

One thing that is still stumping me is the reason why the Runt won't pick up speed. She seems really slow to catch on, unlike the other two. She's also growing crooked which is annoying.

My other problem is why Ms. B's leaves are all curling upwards at the very tips (about 1 mm to 1 cm). What do you think that is?

Thanks.

All sounds good. Dunno offhand about the leaf curl, esp without seeing it. It's sometimes caused by high air temp, could be Mg def. If you've just sorted out a pH error, wait and see what the new growth looks like, perhaps it will sort out.

Sometimes plants just fail to thrive. It could be that this plant was damaged enough by previous overwatering that it's taking an inordinate amt of time to recover.

The leaf curl combined with cooked tips looks like a nutrient burn. That can be caused by an actual excess nute strength or a pH error which locks out some nutes, meaning some nutes are available in excess compared to others; IOW, the NPK ratio, as the plant 'sees' it, is off. If, for example, P & Mg are locked out, the plant may show N toxicity.

You should be able to get 6 clones off of one mum, so if all these characters are vegging, you're probably in pretty good shape.

If your problems are heat related, all plants will be affected, not just one or two. What are the temps running at?

Overwatering tends to appear as yellowing/dropping lower leaves and progresses up the plant. it doesn't usually cause problems all over the plant at the same time.

Keep in mind that deeply shaded lower leaves below a very dense veg mass can yellow and drop, too- this happens when my mother plants are ready for a pass of cuttings.



If you look carefully, you'll see 1-2 yellow leaves on the mother plants in the back.

Your Double Bubble seedling, like usual, needs to be vegged to sexual maturity, sexed and then propagated.

You can take your cuttings any old time; pruning back your vegging plants will make them recover their veg mass more quickly too, as there's a large rootmass grown to suit the big veg mass. When you remove part of the veg mass, new material will quickly grow to replace it.

You can cut the vegging plants back really quite severely:



All the veg material you see in the fist pic redevelops from the above plants in 14 days.

Al B. Fuct said:

The leaf curl combined with cooked tips looks like a nutrient burn. That can be caused by an actual excess nute strength or a pH error which locks out some nutes, meaning some nutes are available in excess compared to others; IOW, the NPK ratio, as the plant 'sees' it, is off. If, for example, P & Mg are locked out, the plant may show N toxicity.

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How can I know? My pH levels are still rising throughout the day. I dose my soln with H2O2 and I adjust my soln daily, but it still changes. I drop it to about 5.6 every night and around the same time the next night it's up to 6.2 - 6.4. I give it about 10ml/g of H2O2, but the soln still has some gunk in it.

Al B. Fuct said:

You should be able to get 6 clones off of one mum, so if all these characters are vegging, you're probably in pretty good shape.

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Can I chop up one of these plants and use a clone as a mother and flower my original? That way I can be guaranteed to flower something this cycle. It's almost 90 days of vegging. I thought I would be lickin' my lips staring at crystals by this time.

Al B. Fuct said:

If your problems are heat related, all plants will be affected, not just one or two. What are the temps running at?

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My plants tips are about 4 inches from the light so I think the temps are about 90. At the base of the plants the temp is about 80 - 82 F.

Al B. Fuct said:

Overwatering tends to appear as yellowing/dropping lower leaves and progresses up the plant. it doesn't usually cause problems all over the plant at the same time.

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So you think it's nute deficiency?

Al B. Fuct said:

Keep in mind that deeply shaded lower leaves below a very dense veg mass can yellow and drop, too- this happens when my mother plants are ready for a pass of cuttings.

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Yeah I noticed this. My problem right now isn't really yellow. Just from the pictures what would be your opinion on my plants' readiness for flowering?

Al B. Fuct said:

Your Double Bubble seedling, like usual, needs to be vegged to sexual maturity, sexed and then propagated.

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Well I just mentioned it as a factor in how many seedlings I should be aiming for with this plant if I have a limit of 6 flowers.