Abundance or deficiency?

Hello again everyone

It is week 8 now of my endeavor, here are a few photos. Here are links to my two previous posts as well (w/ photos):

http://rollitup.org/t/whats-going-on-with-these-plants.839469/

http://rollitup.org/t/when-to-do-topping-fiming.840665/#post-10773118

It has been a somewhat difficult road so far. The color of the leaves has been inconsistent, except for the bit of yellowing which I am having a hard time figuring out the cause. I did have this: http://www.420magazine.com/gallery/data/500/leavedeficiencies5.jpg to refer to, though I am finding myself looking at it and not quite being able to draw a real comparison on the actual plants. Maybe some of you will find that chart helpful for your own grow.

I have experimented with watering and nutes but cannot get any consistent results to give me an answer. Nute burn? Not enough of a nutrient or a couple different ones?

I appreciate all the tips from everyone, and anyone who's maybe encountered the same problem

I hope everyone had a lovely weekend

Almost looks like over or under watering to me at first glance. What is your water/feed schedule? Do you feed nutrients with every watering, or do you give plain water sometime? How often?

Those are overwatered, the way the leaves are drooping looks more over than under watering. Maybe a little more cal-mag with your next watering and youll be fine. Let them dry if it is in fact overwatering. You didn't give much info on you watering/feed schedule so that why your not getting many replies and people don't like to guess. Give us some more details and youll get a more fine tuned diagnosis.

You've got some confusing stuff going on. I suspect your soil structure is poor, maybe lacking aeration. Can you describe your mix?

I wouldn't make any decisions about deficiencies like ca/mg. When soil dries the ph rises. Overwatering limits the range of ph the roots experience, holding it lower. That can look like a nute lockout. (I see a little P deficiency with some purple'ish blotches too.). The following chart shows ca/mg are locked out at relatively high ph.


How frequently do you water? (What kind of soil? I see round clay balls, like they use in hydro?). What is the source of your water? I've seen high ppm tap water (and perhaps the combination of chlorine) cause plants to look like lockout. Do you have a fan blowing on the plants, another exhausting the air (if the plants are held in a closed tent)?

Rentaldog said:

Almost looks like over or under watering to me at first glance. What is your water/feed schedule? Do you feed nutrients with every watering, or do you give plain water sometime? How often?

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Cpappa27 said:

Those are overwatered, the way the leaves are drooping looks more over than under watering. Maybe a little more cal-mag with your next watering and youll be fine. Let them dry if it is in fact overwatering. You didn't give much info on you watering/feed schedule so that why your not getting many replies and people don't like to guess. Give us some more details and youll get a more fine tuned diagnosis.

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Bugeye said:

You've got some confusing stuff going on. I suspect your soil structure is poor, maybe lacking aeration. Can you describe your mix?

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az2000 said:

I wouldn't make any decisions about deficiencies like ca/mg. When soil dries the ph rises. Overwatering limits the range of ph the roots experience, holding it lower. That can look like a nute lockout. (I see a little P deficiency with some purple'ish blotches too.). The following chart shows ca/mg are locked out at relatively high ph.

View attachment 3253928​

How frequently do you water? (What kind of soil? I see round clay balls, like they use in hydro?). What is the source of your water? I've seen high ppm tap water (and perhaps the combination of chlorine) cause plants to look like lockout. Do you have a fan blowing on the plants, another exhausting the air (if the plants are held in a closed tent)?

Click to expand...

I included the 2 links to my previous posts because there is a lot of information in those, as well as additional photos earlier in the grow. Is it supposed to be a hyperlink? I'll re-answer.

The plants haven't had water yet today, following the every 3 days schedule I've been doing. If it is over-watering I would be surprised just due to that fact, also I use a porous wooden skewer stick (like the kind to make kebab) to see if the soil is wet further down. I wait until the soil is dry, which takes about 3 days.

Watering is done in proportion to the planting pot size (about 1 L, and let it drain) When watering, nutes are given 1 mL per 1.5 L bottle. BioBiz Gro are the nutes being used. I have withheld nutes to test what kind of effect that would have, but it didn't seem to worsen or better the condition. This has really been an ongoing problem, the plants have been struggling almost the whole time as you can see from the other photos in my earlier posts here http://rollitup.org/t/whats-going-on-with-these-plants.839469/ and here http://rollitup.org/t/when-to-do-topping-fiming.840665/#post-10773118

The water is from the tap, and I have tested it with a kit which is done by putting the water in a vial and adding 2 drops of a colored liquid, then comparing it with a color chart. Someone said that this type of testing kit isn't very accurate, but the reading was 8.

The soil mix is 50% organic potting soil, 50% perlite, with some hydrocorrals.

There is a fan inside the tent and there is an intake fan as well.

Thank you for the replies so far, and for the ph chart, interesting and helpful.

I don't see how it could be overwatering with 50% perlite. (It could be too dry, which produces droopy leaves too.). To test when to water, poke your finger into the soil to the first knuckle. If it's dry there you should water. (You can also let it dry and lift your containers to get a feel for how light they are, then use that weight measurement to know when to water.).

I'm leaning toward it being your tap water. I would switch to filtered (reverse osmosis) water until you can determine the TDS ppm of your tap water and whether it contains chlorine or chloramine.

All you did was test the ph. If you live in an area with high TDS in the water it will compete with the nutrients you add. For example, let's say you'd have 700 ppm after adding your nutrients to RO water (which has about 50 ppm). That's 650 from the nutes and 50 from what exists in the water. But, if your tape water has 600 ppm (hard water, for example), you'd have 1250 which is about as high as you'd want to go in soil, and half of that would be mostly useless garbage, adding to salt buildup and nutrient lockout.

And then there is chlorine. If you don't aerate the water for 24 hours it will be in the water. If your provider uses chloramine it won't aerate out.

The fastest way to eliminate that variable is to use RO water until you get a TDS meter or get information from your water provider.

Overwatered, likely pythium.

az2000 said:

I don't see how it could be overwatering with 50% perlite. (It could be too dry, which produces droopy leaves too.). To test when to water, poke your finger into the soil to the first knuckle. If it's dry there you should water. (You can also let it dry and lift your containers to get a feel for how light they are, then use that weight measurement to know when to water.).

I'm leaning toward it being your tap water. I would switch to filtered (reverse osmosis) water until you can determine the TDS ppm of your tap water and whether it contains chlorine or chloramine.

All you did was test the ph. If you live in an area with high TDS in the water it will compete with the nutrients you add. For example, let's say you'd have 700 ppm after adding your nutrients to RO water (which has about 50 ppm). That's 650 from the nutes and 50 from what exists in the water. But, if your tape water has 600 ppm (hard water, for example), you'd have 1250 which is about as high as you'd want to go in soil, and half of that would be mostly useless garbage, adding to salt buildup and nutrient lockout.

And then there is chlorine. If you don't aerate the water for 24 hours it will be in the water. If your provider uses chloramine it won't aerate out.

The fastest way to eliminate that variable is to use RO water until you get a TDS meter or get information from your water provider.

Click to expand...

Thanks so much for all of that information. I have set some water out in an open container to prepare for the next watering day. I also found this page http://www.growweedeasy.com/marijuana-symptoms-pictures

and this page http://forum.grasscity.com/absolute-beginners/218218-updated-beginners-guide-ph-marijuana.html which I was particularly interested in this section:

"A great way to regulate the pH of your soil is to use Dolomite Lime(calcium-magnesium carbonate). While growing Cannabis plants in containers, mix one cup of fine dolomite lime for each cubic foot of soil, then lightly water it. After watering, mix it once more and wait a day or two before checking the pH. While growing in an outdoor garden, follow the dolomite lime manufacturers instructions. Dolomite Lime works well because it has a neutral pH rating of 7.0 and tends to keep the soil a constant pH throughout the entire life cycle of the plant. This is a highly recommended method of regulating your soil pH.
If you find the pH of your soil or Hydroponic reservoir to be too acidic or basic you could add either pH up or pH down. These are chemicals sold at places like Home Depot or any Gardening store. They usually come in one liter bottles and are to be diluted in the water used to water the soil growing plants or the Hydroponic reservoir according to directions on the packaging.

Some examples of Home remedies to raise/lower pH are as follows:
1.Lemon juice. 1/4 tbsp can bring a gallon of tap-water from 7.4 to 6.3.
2.Phosphoric acid. lowers pH and provides Phosphor too!
3.Nitric acid. lowers pH.
4.Hydrochloric acid. strongest way to lower pH
5.Hydrated lime. flush soil with a teaspoon per gallon of water to raise pH.
6.Baking Soda. eats acids to raise pH.
7.Calcium carbonate. raises pH (very strong)
8.Potassium silicate. raises pH."

Though I have not found any information yet on how to measure out these things per x amount of water.

Here is a little more info on my setup as well:

Gavita Digistar 400 Classic, Dimmable Electronic Ballast
400w Phillips SON-T PIA Green Power in a Cooltube 20" from "canopy"
S&P TD-350/125 Silent w. attatched 400m3 carbon active filter

11 litre / 3 gallon square pots, organic soil with perlite mixed in, and hydrocorrels top and bottom.

Watering every 3 days w. Biobizz Grow/Bloom, using water straight from tap (measures 7.9ph 446pm).
Latest watering was 3 days ago with 1ml/litre grow.
Temperatures around 78-82f, and humidity ranging between 35-45%

Rentaldog said:

Almost looks like over or under watering to me at first glance. What is your water/feed schedule? Do you feed nutrients with every watering, or do you give plain water sometime? How often?

Click to expand...

Cpappa27 said:

Those are overwatered, the way the leaves are drooping looks more over than under watering. Maybe a little more cal-mag with your next watering and youll be fine. Let them dry if it is in fact overwatering. You didn't give much info on you watering/feed schedule so that why your not getting many replies and people don't like to guess. Give us some more details and youll get a more fine tuned diagnosis.

Click to expand...

Bugeye said:

You've got some confusing stuff going on. I suspect your soil structure is poor, maybe lacking aeration. Can you describe your mix?

Click to expand...

az2000 said:

I don't see how it could be overwatering with 50% perlite. (It could be too dry, which produces droopy leaves too.). To test when to water, poke your finger into the soil to the first knuckle. If it's dry there you should water. (You can also let it dry and lift your containers to get a feel for how light they are, then use that weight measurement to know when to water.).

I'm leaning toward it being your tap water. I would switch to filtered (reverse osmosis) water until you can determine the TDS ppm of your tap water and whether it contains chlorine or chloramine.

All you did was test the ph. If you live in an area with high TDS in the water it will compete with the nutrients you add. For example, let's say you'd have 700 ppm after adding your nutrients to RO water (which has about 50 ppm). That's 650 from the nutes and 50 from what exists in the water. But, if your tape water has 600 ppm (hard water, for example), you'd have 1250 which is about as high as you'd want to go in soil, and half of that would be mostly useless garbage, adding to salt buildup and nutrient lockout.

And then there is chlorine. If you don't aerate the water for 24 hours it will be in the water. If your provider uses chloramine it won't aerate out.

The fastest way to eliminate that variable is to use RO water until you get a TDS meter or get information from your water provider.

Click to expand...

Good day to everyone and happy Saturday

The plants are now at about 9 weeks. I have been using tap water that has been set out for 3 days without being covered. It is strange because though the leaves look more green instead of yellow, there is the appearance of dark spots on just some of the leaves. I have gotten come close-up photos of those particular leaves. When I compare to this chart http://www.420magazine.com/gallery/data/500/leavedeficiencies5.jpg it seems like Phosphorus or Manganese that it isn't absorbing enough of maybe? I am most definitely not over watering. What do you guys think? Is this issue something that is fixable at this point?

Very much an overwatered look but i agree that it couldn't possibly be overwatered with 50% perlite. Sorry man, I'm still confused, but I have to think it is something fundamental. Your source water is pretty high ppm and ph so that would be something to look into, I just can't connect the dots.

Hempowering said:

I have been using tap water that has been set out for 3 days without being covered.

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I would use filtered drinking water (reverse osmosis) to eliminate the variable that your tap water is high TDS and/or contains chloramine which doesn't aerate out like chlorine.

You've mentioned the ph of your tap water, but I don't recall you saying you ph the final nutrient mix before feeding. Do you?

When do you take these pictures. Is it right before the lights go out or right when they come on by any chance?

az2000 said:

I would use filtered drinking water (reverse osmosis) to eliminate the variable that your tap water is high TDS and/or contains chloramine which doesn't aerate out like chlorine.

You've mentioned the ph of your tap water, but I don't recall you saying you ph the final nutrient mix before feeding. Do you?

Click to expand...

That might be really hard to find where I live but I will look for it :-/ I looked up "reverse osmosis drinking water" to see if there was a recognizable brand or something, but home filters that are installed next to the kitchen sink are what I am finding. I definitely cannot afford something like that.

I did measure the ph after mixing with the nutrients, it was reading the highest it could go on the color chart.

Cpappa27 said:

When do you take these pictures. Is it right before the lights go out or right when they come on by any chance?

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I think I can safely say that photos have never been taken near light on/off time. If I had to guess I would say they are taken usually after the lights have been on for a few hours. I don't open and expose them to light when it is supposed to be dark time.

Why do you ask?

Hempowering said:

I think I can safely say that photos have never been taken near light on/off time. If I had to guess I would say they are taken usually after the lights have been on for a few hours. I don't open and expose them to light when it is supposed to be dark time.

Why do you ask?

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Just getting the obvious out of the way. I didn't see anyone asked the question so thought perhaps we were trying to diagnose something simple.

Rentaldog said:

Almost looks like over or under watering to me at first glance. What is your water/feed schedule? Do you feed nutrients with every watering, or do you give plain water sometime? How often?

Click to expand...

Cpappa27 said:

Those are overwatered, the way the leaves are drooping looks more over than under watering. Maybe a little more cal-mag with your next watering and youll be fine. Let them dry if it is in fact overwatering. You didn't give much info on you watering/feed schedule so that why your not getting many replies and people don't like to guess. Give us some more details and youll get a more fine tuned diagnosis.

Click to expand...

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az2000 said:

I would use filtered drinking water (reverse osmosis) to eliminate the variable that your tap water is high TDS and/or contains chloramine which doesn't aerate out like chlorine.

You've mentioned the ph of your tap water, but I don't recall you saying you ph the final nutrient mix before feeding. Do you?

Click to expand...

Cpappa27 said:

Just getting the obvious out of the way. I didn't see anyone asked the question so thought perhaps we were trying to diagnose something simple.

Click to expand...

Hey guys, I wanted to run these latest photos by you and see what you have to say. A ton of the leaves just dried up and fell off. The ones that fell off are all discolored. This is what the plants look like now. The 2 close up photos are only of the leaves that fell off, in a pile on the floor.

Is it even worth putting them into the flowering phase when they look like this? If it is nutrient lockout will this just keep getting worse and worse? Sigh. I'm sitting here thinking "I thought weeds just automatically grew." With the environment and attention they've been given I feel like they should be flourishing.

I don't open and expose them to light when it is supposed to be dark time. ... Is it even worth putting them into the flowering phase when they look like this?

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FYI: When in veg there is no dark time in the same sense of flower. Leaving the tent open, exposed to roomlight, etc., won't hurt them. In the absence of light a hormone builds up. In the presence of light the hormone burns off. 12/12 is where more hormone builds up than burns off, causing the plant to flower. That's when you want to be careful to avoid exposure to more light, confusing the plant that it's not time to flower (after it thought it was time).

I wouldn't turn on the grow lights in veg. But, a room light, a worklight, a CFL in a clamp-on reflector.

I'd go ahead and flip them to flower for no other reason than to continue the learning experience. You've learned a lot during veg. It won't hurt anything to flip them to flower. You might learn a little more which would help on the next one.

Hempowering said:

I'm sitting here thinking "I thought weeds just automatically grew." With the environment and attention they've been given I feel like they should be flourishing.

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A common mistake of new growers is to "kill them with kindness." Our plants aren't that difficult to grow. Well drained soil, proper ph (not strips) of everything you pour in, low-ppm water without chlorine or chloramine (which can't be easily dispatched from tap water), good ventilation (entire area replaced every 5 minutes) and circulation within the area. I'd stay away from soils with pre-amended nutrients, or at least strong or "time-release" nutrients on your first grow.

Find someone who's having good results and copy what they do (nutes, medium).

Yea, sorry things arent looking so good buddy. Id give them their shot at taking things into flower mode, just to let them live our their life

On your next grow, id suggest changing your soil to a 'premade' one like Fox Farms or whatever. If your plants have been like that for this long, I have to assume its a big problem with your soil, or what you're adding to it. Remember, dont 'overdo' with your plant. You might kill them if you worry and water or feed too much!

Let the plant talk to you! It will let you know if its hungry, and its soil will tell you if shes thirsty! Then just relax and let nature do its thing.

i love how people said overwatering when this is a hydroponic system hahaha. come on guys and all these people talkin bout soil when hes clearly on a DWC. also the plant with the dark green leaves and deep ridges have nitrogen abundance.


hope this helps everyone.