Aerated reservoir; high pH and organics.

BluJayz

Well-Known Member
Using only organics and a soil/mix.

Recently we setup a large reservoir of RO water to be aerated on a constant basis to be used for watering and flushing.

Theres nothing in the water; five gallon buckets would be filled to mix feed.

However the pH of the h2O alone is upwards of 8.5-9.0. (Aerated)

What are some of the recommendations to deal with this.

I have read about turning off the air and letting it sit and go back to its "normal" pH and using ACV to bring the ph down.

However when using on average 35 gallons a week neither option sound like a long term solution.

Does anyone have experience with a setup like this, is it safe to water and flush with this "manipulated" pH; and just up and down when feeding nutes?
 

jondamon

Well-Known Member
I thought RO units were supposed to make the remaining water between 6-7 pH.

Anyways.

A possible thought is to run something similar to a fish tank filter filled with peat moss instead of any actual fish tank filter media.

The peat moss should naturally lower the pH.

You may get some tanning in the water though.




J
 

BluJayz

Well-Known Member
The pH is higher due to the highly aerated water; maybe someone will chime in with the technicals.

Also doesn't peat moss have some sort of NPK value?
 

Jimdamick

Well-Known Member
If you are using RO water, there should be no way you are almost at 9 PH. Something is wrong there. I aerate a large res that circulates thru a Hydroton drip system, and have to adjust daily with PH down, but I have ever heard of aeration causing an increase in PH by itself. I guess you are going to need to stock up on PH down, or add a charcoal filter to the mix. Good luck
 

BluJayz

Well-Known Member
pH down although labeled "organic" they wont use.

As for why the pH rises, the easiest way to explain it is that some of the carbon dioxide in water is carbonic acid -- that is, carbon dioxide plus water makes carbonic acid -- so removing carbon dioxide with air is like removing carbonic acid. Removing an acid from the water makes the pH rise.
 

JohnDee

Well-Known Member
RO water does not need to be aerated. There's no nutrients so nothing can grow in it. I say shut off the air pump.
JD
 

BluJayz

Well-Known Member
RO water does not need to be aerated. There's no nutrients so nothing can grow in it. I say shut off the air pump.
JD
Aerated pots and oxygenated water are the only ways to bring additional oxygen to the root zone in soil. I know its an arguable topic but works well in their environment.

I am able to dial it down and will give that a try.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
I aerate my RO and get NO change in it's pH (6.0) ! I aerate to put Oxy into the water as water that sets, looses Oxy.....Oxy to roots - GOOD.

Now read this

.....Water that has been produced by a properly functioning reverse osmosis system is some of the purest water available, yet often RO users are surprised and a little alarmed to find that their very clean water is also “acidic”, that is, that it has a low pH. Neutral pH is defined as 7.00, but RO water typically shows a pH of between 5.00 and 6.00.
.....Given that the pH scale, like the Richter scale for earthquakes, is logarithmic, that means that pH 5.00 water is actually 100 times as acidic as pH 7.00 water. Certainly, that sounds very drastic, but due to the somewhat unique properties of RO water, there really is no cause for alarm.
.....First, it may be helpful to look at what pH measures. pH is a measurement of the relative acidity or alkalinity of a solution. Some substances, such as hydrogen ions, lower the pH of a solution. They are considered acids. Other substances, such as hydroxide ions, raise the pH of a solution. Those are called bases.
.....There are many different acids and bases that affect pH, but for clarity sake it will be easiest to think only in terms of hydrogen ions (H+) and hydroxide ions (OH-). When water has more free hydrogen ions floating around than hydroxide ions, it is acidic (pH less than 7). When there are more hydroxide ions than hydrogen ions, it is basic (pH greater than 7).
.....Water, as we have all learned, is described by the chemical formula H2O. If you could shrink down small enough to be able to see molecules, when you looked at a glass of water, you would see that the water molecules did not simply stay put as H2O, but were always separating and recombining. An H2O would break in to two pieces: an H+ and an OH-, and then get back together. In that glass of water there would be gazillions of water molecules, all splitting and rejoining constantly. If that water were very pure RO water and didn’t have any other substances dissolved in it, the pH would be neutral.
.....Because there are only H2O molecules there, the number of H’s and OH’s would be even. There wouldn’t be more H’s than OH’s, or the other way around, and so the acidity of an H+ would be “cancelled out” by the alkalinity of an OH-. This balance between hydrogen ions and hydroxide ions is what makes a solution neutral. Therefore, extremely pure water is always neutral because it doesn’t contain any other substances to throw off that H/OH balance.
.....Why then does RO water test to have a low pH? The very purity that means it is neutral also makes it very sensitive to the addition of other substances. Technically speaking, RO water has little or no buffering capacity. That means that the addition of even a small amount of acid will have a large effect on pH.
.....Consider this example. A man is blindfolded and put in a room. He is told that he must raise his hand when he hears a baby start to cry. If the room is quiet, free of other’“contaminating” noises, and a baby starts to cry, he will raise his hand immediately. If, however, the room contains a large flock of seagulls, several construction workers with jackhammers, a roaring jet engine, an 80’s heavy metal band, and other noisy things, and then a baby starts to cry, he will not be able to notice it.
.....The empty, quiet room is like the glass of RO water. If only a tiny amount of acid (a single baby crying) is added, the change will be easily noticed. The noisy room is like a glass of tap water, full of amounts of salt and minerals and other things commonly found in water. The addition of one more thing will go basically unnoticed.
.....Regular, untreated tap water typically contains chemicals that act as “buffers”. When some H+ is added to typical tap water, some of those buffers “catch” the H+ and combine with it. Then, even though H+ has been added, the pH doesn’t change because the amount of free H+ floating around is still the same relative to the amount of free OH-. Because a reverse osmosis removes the vast majority of those buffer chemicals, when a little bit of H+ is added, it upsets the balance between free H+ and free OH-.
.....Reverse osmosis membranes do not remove gasses, such as carbon dioxide in water. Also, when RO water is exposed to the air, a small amount of carbon dioxide will begin to dissolve in the water. So RO product water has the buffering alkalinity chemicals removed and the acid causing gasses remaining.
.....Again, if you were small enough to see molecules, what you would see happening is this: You would see the carbon dioxide molecules combine with some of the OH-‘s in the water. That means that there would be relatively more free H+’s floating around, because some OH-‘s had been “caught” by the carbon dioxide in the water. Having more free H+’s than OH-‘s floating about is how we earlier defined an acidic solution, so that is why the pH of RO water is typically lower than neutral.
.....Having low pH RO water should not be of concern because the “acidity” in RO water is very weak. In order to bring RO water to a neutral pH, it takes only a tiny amount of base. For example, if you had a glass of RO water with a pH of 5.0 and you added 2-3 specks of baking soda (a base) that would likely neutralize the tiny amount of acidity in the water.
.....For someone who is concerned about the effect of low pH RO water on the body, I would not recommend going through the trouble to add specks of baking soda to every glass of drinking water. The moment a person drinks some low pH RO water, that water will combine with the saliva, and, moments later, the stomach contents. It will cease to be extremely pure (because it will have saliva and chewed up food in it), and so it will no longer have the unique pH characteristics described above. Additionally, the pH in the stomach of a healthy person is typically less than 2. That is very, very acidic. As soon as the water gets to the stomach, it will become very acidic, also.
.....That acidity is essential to human health. Without the acid in our stomach, we would not be able to digest our food, and we would get sick much, much more often because stomach acid kills many bacteria and other things that we ingest. The only way that drinking low pH RO water could upset the pH balance of the body might be if someone drank ridiculously large amounts, and didn’t eat anything, and continued that for some time. Barring that situation, drinking low pH RO water will have basically no effect on the pH of the body.



Now then,,,,SOMETHING is changing your pH. Something that has come "in" the water from the outside, after the RO to effect the pH! Is the airstone putting in an Alkaloid! The container it fills have/had a residue of something? Maybe some Plaster dust settling into the container from the air? What to do???
Try sanitizing the stone/container/airline, everything that comes into contact with the RO water. Cover the container.
If your PPMs from the RO water are over like 20 PPM then you may need a new membrane.

At any rate you have some type of contamination going on as aerating RO does NOT raise the pH!

Always remember = SANITIZE, SANITIZE, CLEAN AGAIN and SANITIZE!
 

JohnDee

Well-Known Member
BluJayz wrote: Aerated pots and oxygenated water are the only ways to bring additional oxygen to the root zone in soil.
Well you said it was arguable...so here I go. How do you think the other 99.9% of soil growers who don't aerate their water manage to keep their plants alive?

Proper soil structure using perlite or whatever helps alot. But the other major factor in root aeration is a proper wet/dry cycle. As the water is used up, it draws air down into the root zone. So no offence BluJayz, but you're wrong.
JD
 

BluJayz

Well-Known Member
....Reverse osmosis membranes do not remove gasses, such as carbon dioxide in water. Also, when RO water is exposed to the air, a small amount of carbon dioxide will begin to dissolve in the water. So RO product water has the buffering alkalinity chemicals removed and the acid causing gasses remaining.
Sounds right, then after aerating the carbon is removed increasing the pH. I did not catch otherwise.

I am not opposed to re-sanatizing the area its an easy place to start.

@JohnDee To each his own. They like many prefer it.
 

BluJayz

Well-Known Member
A long but good read.

http://www.membranes.com/docs/papers/04_ro_water_chemistry.pdf

"Carbon Dioxide (CO2): Carbon dioxide is a gas that when dissolved in water reacts with the water to form weak carbonic acid (H2CO3). If a pure water was completely saturated with carbon dioxide, its concentration would be about 1600 ppm and the pH would be about 4.0. A typical source for carbon dioxide in natural waters is the result of a balance with bicarbonate alkalinity based on the pH of the water. The concentration of carbon dioxide in water is typically indirectly determined by graphical comparison to the bicarbonate concentration and pH. Carbon dioxide and the bicarbonate ion are in a balance between the pH range of 4.4 and 8.2. The alkalinity is all carbon dioxide at pH 4.4 and is all bicarbonate at pH 8.4. The RO design program calculates the carbon dioxide level based on the bicarbonate level and pH of the water. Carbon dioxide, being a gas, is not rejected or concentrated by a RO membrane, therefore its concentration will the same in the feed, permeate and concentrate. Acidifying the RO feed water will lower pH by converting bicarbonate to carbon dioxide."
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Read that quote again dude.....
"Also, when RO water is exposed to the air, a small amount of carbon dioxide will begin to dissolve in the water. So RO product water has the buffering alkalinity chemicals removed and the acid causing gasses remaining."

It will NOT increase the pH. If anything it may lower it a TAD....The increase in your pH is telling me that something (An alkaloid) is getting "IN" to it, thus raising your pH!
It could be SO many things, in very small amounts that can make this happen.

What is your storage container made of ? If it's some sort of stone, change to a plastic one!
Was it cleaned and rinsed thoroughly enough?
Take a glass of the RO water and pH it.....now put the air stone in it with NO air running and let it sit for 12 hrs. Now pH the water in the glass again. Did it go up? If so the stone is the problem. Repeat this with the airline....
Is contaminate getting in from the air pump? Is the filter on the pump dirty? Change it! Is it even there? Put one in/get another pump with one in it!
Things dropping in it from above or from the air? It should be covered!

I do hope this helps.

JohnDee: yeah your right, but more sure don't hurt.....AND, most importantly, setting water looses Oxy. So Blu is doing the right thing! The Oxy levels might as well be the same/better then everyone that does not use stored RO!
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
A long but good read.

http://www.membranes.com/docs/papers/04_ro_water_chemistry.pdf

"Carbon Dioxide (CO2): Carbon dioxide is a gas that when dissolved in water reacts with the water to form weak carbonic acid (H2CO3). If a pure water was completely saturated with carbon dioxide, its concentration would be about 1600 ppm and the pH would be about 4.0. A typical source for carbon dioxide in natural waters is the result of a balance with bicarbonate alkalinity based on the pH of the water. The concentration of carbon dioxide in water is typically indirectly determined by graphical comparison to the bicarbonate concentration and pH. Carbon dioxide and the bicarbonate ion are in a balance between the pH range of 4.4 and 8.2. The alkalinity is all carbon dioxide at pH 4.4 and is all bicarbonate at pH 8.4. The RO design program calculates the carbon dioxide level based on the bicarbonate level and pH of the water. Carbon dioxide, being a gas, is not rejected or concentrated by a RO membrane, therefore its concentration will the same in the feed, permeate and concentrate. Acidifying the RO feed water will lower pH by converting bicarbonate to carbon dioxide."
Yes that's it! yours is RAISING....thus your getting an Alkaloid contaminate!
 

BluJayz

Well-Known Member
Hum I am, still reading it differently but plan to clean everything next time i'm in.

Is there a particular favorite cleaner for water reservoirs and equip?
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
I use a peroxide mix (from the beauty supply store, ask for the liquid 40 %) Search around the net for your ratio (I use 2 TBL a gallon) and wash everything using platex gloves on your hands and don't spill it on your cloths.
 

supertiger

Well-Known Member
Is your reservoir in a warm area where you experience significant evaporation? If not I would guess your reservoir is too big and you don't go through it fast enough. Just a guess..
 
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