Aggressive "Defoliation" Pruning Technique Test

I'm still for you finishing this, but let's not call it a fair representation of the type of defoliation most of us practice. I think if we reach that consensus, and all agree that this experiment is quite extensive in it's defoliation, then any attempt to use this thread by a leaf huger could easily be countered by referring to the page of this thread where we all discuss this. I just wanted it out in the open that I do not consider this an actual representation of beneficial, selective leaf removal.

Yepper, have to definately agree, not a selective leaf removal for sure. If it were, then I would be selectively removing for light penetration and not to teh extreme of "IF IT SHADES A GROWING TIP AT ALL IT"S GONE". In fact I find it ever increasingly difficult not to "manicure" the controls here. Another fault I'm finding is that on the TATANKA, I should be topping now but to do this, while cutting pretty much all mature leaves from the test plant bastardizes the test and and borders on cruel and unusual punishment for the test plants.

I kind of still want to see you pull all of the leaves off and see what happens. Not the newest growth, but all of the larger ones, and keep doing that until the new growth is deformed and then just let her go and see how it does. See if it goes polyploid, who cares if it doesn't work, it's not hurting anything.

That is debatable, as the plant is suffering from stunted growth

Wolverine97 said:

I kind of still want to see you pull all of the leaves off and see what happens. Not the newest growth, but all of the larger ones, and keep doing that until the new growth is deformed and then just let her go and see how it does. See if it goes polyploid, who cares if it doesn't work, it's not hurting anything.

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subbed, really wanna see the results... and i think thats not selective... kinda think over doing it? i might be wrong.

This test is great and we need to do about 10 more like it. I just did a massive leaf removal on 20 Lavader crosses to reduce the overall diameter and allow some light down the outside of the plants. Could be a test all on its own. There's just so many opinions on leaf removal that some specific testing is sooooo needed. I'm really interested on how much, if any, it hurts a plant (yield) to remove the leaves.


Before leaf removal


After leaf removal

Prior to removing the leaves on the 20 plants my veg spread under 4 - 1000 watt MH's was a totally sealed off canopy. After, I had nice rows with light getting down both sides of the plants, hopefully developing more bud sites for bloom in a week or so.

I don't mean to jack your thread. Is anyone interested in developing some parameters for a group of tests that several grows can participate in? OP, you really sparked my interest in the effects of this. Great job in just doing it and sharing with us.

https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/407048-20-000-watt-medical-grow.html

OP, great work sharing this with us. I believe there needs to be several more tests done on this subject. Maybe with different "rules" as far as which leaves are removed.

Today I removed quite a few leaves from 20 Lavander crosses to reduce the overall diameter, allowing more light to reach the lower outside tops. I simply cut everything back to the ends of the outer most branches.

View attachment 1506101
Before leaf removal

View attachment 1506102
After leaf removal

Prior to removing the leaves, the canopy under my 4 - 1000 watt MH's was totally sealed. After, I had nice clean rows with light striking at least double the amount of tops. The question, I guess, is will the increased light to the tops outweigh any yield loss from the removed leaves.

Could a few grows get together and run a series of tests with different "rules" regarding which leaves get removed? Maybe the OP could moderate the deal? Just a thought. There is just not nearly enough real info on this subject besides the leaf huggers "no leaves ever", and a huge group of folks doing all sorts of different trimming.

Didn't mean to jack your thread, OP. You just really got me thinking how much this is needed. Would love to be able to direct the leaf huggers to some real tests with real results.

collective gardener said:

OP, great work sharing this with us. I believe there needs to be several more tests done on this subject. Maybe with different "rules" as far as which leaves are removed.

Today I removed quite a few leaves from 20 Lavander crosses to reduce the overall diameter, allowing more light to reach the lower outside tops. I simply cut everything back to the ends of the outer most branches.

View attachment 1506101
Before leaf removal

View attachment 1506102
After leaf removal

Prior to removing the leaves, the canopy under my 4 - 1000 watt MH's was totally sealed. After, I had nice clean rows with light striking at least double the amount of tops. The question, I guess, is will the increased light to the tops outweigh any yield loss from the removed leaves.

Could a few grows get together and run a series of tests with different "rules" regarding which leaves get removed? Maybe the OP could moderate the deal? Just a thought. There is just not nearly enough real info on this subject besides the leaf huggers "no leaves ever", and a huge group of folks doing all sorts of different trimming.

Didn't mean to jack your thread, OP. You just really got me thinking how much this is needed. Would love to be able to direct the leaf huggers to some real tests with real results.

Click to expand...

I'll do a test in a few weeks maybe like 50 plants vs 50 or something

Wolverine97 said:

I kind of still want to see you pull all of the leaves off and see what happens. Not the newest growth, but all of the larger ones, and keep doing that until the new growth is deformed and then just let her go and see how it does. See if it goes polyploid, who cares if it doesn't work, it's not hurting anything.

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ya know, once I end this one I may set out to do just that .., attempt to manipulate to poly that is.

bangkok101 said:

subbed, really wanna see the results... and i think thats not selective... kinda think over doing it? i might be wrong.

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Definately not selective.., if it shades a growth tip.., it's gone...

I've been doing alot of "diameter reduction" leaf removal to facilitate more plants in a given area, or the same amout of plants with better light penetration down the sides.

I've also used a technique on topped plants where I remove all inward facing fan leaves on each main branch. This opens up the inside of the plant for better light penetration. This gives me better node spacing deeper down into the plant.

My helper, "Helper D", likes to remove the top 3 - 4 fan leaves on every branch on topped plants. Those large leaves cast alot of shade on the plant.

A commercial growing friend removes all fan leaves week 3 of bloom. He ends up with nice tight nugs all the way to the soil on 2.5 - 3 foot plants.

What I haven't done, is side by side tests for any of these techniques to see if the advantages outweigh any losses caused by the leaf removal.

collective gardener said:

I've also used a technique on topped plants where I remove all inward facing fan leaves on each main branch. This opens up the inside of the plant for better light penetration. This gives me better node spacing deeper down into the plant.

What I haven't done, is side by side tests for any of these techniques to see if the advantages outweigh any losses caused by the leaf removal.

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The inward leaf thing has me intrigued, any pics?

Okay, well this is how I'm seein things. As stated in an earlier post I think the test has definately been deemed since onset and extrime defoliation way beyond benefit to the plant comparitively speaking with normal defoliation to increase air flow and light penetration.

That being said, the plants are ready for a few things at this time. First, the Tatanka is in need of topping to increase volume and growth tips. Next, both of the control subjects are ready to move to the 10 gallon tubs while the test subjects have slowed growth and are not currently in need of the transplant. However, when I transplant I trim roots and just to ensure that the tests don't become root bound I will "tickle" the roots. Thats the term I gave a process I have been using in which I take a 10" chefs knife (or reasonable facsimile thereof) and stick it down as deep as possible in the pot starting from the center just a couple inches away from the stem and then cut outward to the edge. i do this 4 times, once in each side. My theory on this is that when a plants growth slows without showing any other reason, often times its due to being rootbound so I help this out by cuting roots.. thining the existing root structure. Seems to give her a lil shot in the arm and a growth spurt after.
And of course the third thing I need to do is another defoliation. i figure tomorrow I do the defoliation, and the transplant and top 2 days after this. I decided to go ahead and finish out the test just in case theres more to be seen and after all, were talking 30 more days of veg or there abouts.

Also, I have included a pic of the third sister here which is defoliated in a much more reserved, "normal" method just to increase air flow and light penetration. Same date of clone and the works. Actually should've had it in since the start but this way I know it was done as a normal plant because it was. No guessing or wondering if I was skewing for the test. Anyrate, here they are. Need some opinion to guide me on any and all of these topics. Particularly including the 3rd sister here on out. Thx again all.
Erkle Subjects The Erkle Sisters


The Erkle Sisters


DENSITY
NO DEFOLIATION SELECTIVE AGRESSIVE


TATANKA TEST SUBJECTS



JUST A GLIMPSE AT MY VEG

Serapis said:

That is debatable, as the plant is suffering from stunted growth

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Clearly. I'd still like to see the experiment furthered. Who cares if it doesn't work.

A mthod I have adopted last few grows that works very well is as follows. Instead of removing any actual full leaves I remove all but the large single blade on a leaf or sometimes leave the large single and a couple of the smaller. THus allowing a lot more light in, better airflow and still giving the plant a leaf to help it grow. The only reason you ever really benifit fro removing leaves in terms of yield is when you have a crowded grow. This was at 35 days bloom about 12 strains. Previously I took all the larger fan leaves off by week three of bloom with great results but I also had 4 plants per sq foot then. Now I only have 2 so I am not as agressive, makes life a little easier even though my yields are not as high.
Here is a tray I did some removal on. Not as drastic as I usually do and you cant really see much of it specifically in this pic.

i'd like to see what would happen to the butchered plants if they were left alone from this point on. leave the control plants alone and leave the butchered plants alone and see if the recovery spawns anything interesting. the butchered plants might take a month to look like a healthy plant but as long as you went there we may as well find out if there is in fact anything fun that would result.

Well Gardner and bangcok, When you start these shoot me a message so I can sub if you wouldnt mind preciate it And yepper Gardner, lots to test and learn , All it needs to have is parameters spelled out clearly to begin with ( which mine were far to grey in the objective department ) and a matching control group defined also.., ie.., regular pruning or noe at all... that kinda thing (again, where this test was a bit weak ) Anyrate.., definately intrested in the subject guys.. Thx

Total Head said:

i'd like to see what would happen to the butchered plants if they were left alone from this point on. leave the control plants alone and leave the butchered plants alone and see if the recovery spawns anything interesting. the butchered plants might take a month to look like a healthy plant but as long as you went there we may as well find out if there is in fact anything fun that would result.

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LOL, Test the resiliance of a strain to recovery after that type of defoliation through the veg. This does bring another question as I decided to let it finish the 90 days veg cycle as origionally planned. Do I stop this process at flowering or continue the cutting? Personally, i think i should stop trimming when it goes to the flower room.

SimplySmokin said:

LOL, Test the resiliance of a strain to recovery after that type of defoliation through the veg. This does bring another question as I decided to let it finish the 90 days veg cycle as origionally planned. Do I stop this process at flowering or continue the cutting? Personally, i think i should stop trimming when it goes to the flower room.

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You get TONS more stretch and vegatative growth after the switch though. Hell I never even really trim my plants until they hit the bloom room. Usually start week one and heaviest cuttin at week 3. After 21 days no more cutting . The thing is all those little side leaves will get big to compensate. Personally I like the blade removal method best now. They do it in Holland which is how I heard of it.

dlively11 said:

You get TONS more stretch and vegatative growth after the switch though. Hell I never even really trim my plants until they hit the bloom room. Usually start week one and heaviest cuttin at week 3. After 21 days no more cutting . The thing is all those little side leaves will get big to compensate. Personally I like the blade removal method best now. They do it in Holland which is how I heard of it.

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I second the smaller leaves getting big to compensate. I had removed most large fan leaves at week 3, and today (week 4.5) It looked as if I hadn't removed anything. Where did all those fan leaves come from? I continue to remove the top 3 or 4 fan leaves on every branch to allow light a little deeper. I figure the buds associated with those leaves are always PLENTY big, and can sacrifice some power for the sake of the lower buds which is really what this is all about.

Since starting this leaf removal trip (I was a leaf hugger for 18 years), I've noticed that just the tiniest extra light reaching down into a topped plant can make a huge difference in the size of the buds down there.

I also removed every fan leaf off of 1 branch on a 4 week bloom plant, and left every fan leaf on another branch (same plant). Here at 7 weeks, I cannot tell any difference in the size or density of the buds that grew weeks 4, 5, and 6 with fan leaves, and the buds without. This, to me, speaks volumes. At some point, these leaves are, without doubt, doing more harm by shading lower areas of the plant than doing any good.

We grow 1/2 lb plants under 1000 watt lights. I need as much vertical production area as possible. I'm starting to think that the only way to maximize growth deep down into a topped plant is serious leaf removal. We're just trying to work out the timing. We have noticed the plant "feels" a big leaf removal and stunts slightly. I believe this is energy used to heal the wounds.

Lively is an inspiration for leaf removal. His yields are very high, and he credits much of this to that removal. Even though we grow different styles (I use 6 - 8 sq ft/plant, and he uses 2 plants/sq ft), I believe the general theory to be the same.

OP, you have really started something here. I have a bunch of picks in my thread, but I'll try to post one here of the inside leaf removal.