Aliens

Wow, your work here is huge Ernie. Please tell me that you cut and pasted alot of that info! Thanks for all the great reads, and links. I will throw in my two cents at some point..Thanks again

Wow. Just... wow.

I was going to say something regarding the massive un-scientific distortions espoused by those who proclaim these "ancient astronaut theories", but then I realized it would just fall on deaf ears. Ah, the hell with it. I'll speak my peace.

As I said before, I believe there is absolutely some form of life on other heavenly bodies. It's possible that there may even be intelligent life out there. Though it's generally agreed that they would not resemble those popular depictions of bipeds who share our anatomy almost to a tee. These theories depend upon the aliens in question looking exactly like us.

Just keep in mind nearly every scientist in the world regards people such as Erich von Daniken and Zecharia Sitchin as about the looniest people to ever walk this earth along with UFO cult leaders like Rael of the Raelians and L. Ron Hubbard of Scientology. Erich even has a theme park devoted to his ideas, charging people a sum for a tour of his revisionist history and treating them to rides which feature his distortions of actual work done in anthropology and physics. Although no one in the scientific community entertains their ideas, people like Erich and Zecharia are actually seen as pariahs by various educational establishments since they sway so many that are unfamiliar with the actual work done in these scientific fields.

I honestly respect you Ernie, but surely you know that their work is no more credible than the work of creation scientists who believe God created the world in seven days... 6,000 years ago. Their theories run almost contrary to everything we know anthopologically, historically, geologically, linguistically, sociologically, and archaeologically. More often than not, they get what science they do feature in their work wrong (especially regarding physics, astronomy, genetics, and archaeology), and present no empirical evidence for their "findings". As an anthropologist, it's sort of insulting that they discredit the work of people who have spent their entire lives uncovering the truth about past civilizations so they may desperately fit it into their beliefs regarding extraterrestrials.

And for those who are wondering, since the 1980's, astronomers concur that the "tenth planet" isn't there. It doesn't exist. The fact that these people make stuff up as they go along is evidenced by the fact that they leap on anything that supports their theories, arguing for the "truth" of these things, and then disavow those ideas when it's found that they don't have a leg to stand on.

I seriously don't understand how anyone can believe these quacks. Please, honestly, explain why they're any more credible than "creation scientists". A lot of people buy into their work too, but they are also pariahs in the scientific community because they present no real evidence and have to alter every field of scientific knowledge in some way in order to fit it into their worldview. It's not good science. It's not even science at all.

The anecdotal and incongruent stories of abductees is more credible than their drivel.

Well, you could argue I suppose that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is simply distorting the ACTUAL evidence that they're right with his noodly appendage.

I'm not denying the possibility that intelligent extraterrestrial life has visited this planet, though the statistical improbability makes it almost impossible. But presenting these people as evidence for it? Why?

~Ethno

All I'm getting at is the fact that there is overwhelming evidence that aliens have visited earth for thousands of years, and still do so to this day. I know that some great guy in the sky did not wave his hand and create all of us, nor did we evolve from monkeys on our own. Combine that with all the overwhelming evidence that shows aliens have been coming here for thousands of years, and this is where I am now. I do not take any one single persons work as the cold hard facts. As I stated before, I have researched this subject since I was a kid, and to me it is undeniable. Take these people's (Danican & Sitchen)work out of the equation, you are still left with ancient cave paintings, renaissance art with UFOs in them, all the unexplained heiroglyphs in the Egyptian pyramids, the dropa stones, etc.... All the reading material I just posted was the best way for me to convey my beliefs so that everyone here could possibly understand where I am coming from. I must agree with you on the point that these theories are no more credible that "creationism", but I must say, they do make more sense. With all due respect Ethno....isn't everbody that supports the theory that aliens are here/visiting deemed a quack by the scientific community? We are taught at an early age that anything that can not be proven with science is simply not true, but this is something that is beyond our idea of "science". It cannot be proven, and that is exactly what they want....the government AND the aliens; for us to remain dumb and blind just like the herd of cattle we are in the pasture that is this universe

daddychrisg said:

Wow, your work here is huge Ernie. Please tell me that you cut and pasted alot of that info! Thanks for all the great reads, and links. I will throw in my two cents at some point..Thanks again

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Thanks man....as much as I would like to take credit for all of that, I did not write it. Everything I posted and more can all be found here in the "info" section:
Aliens & UFOs Among Us

Erniedytn said:

All I'm getting at is the fact that there is overwhelming evidence that aliens have visited earth for thousands of years, and still do so to this day. I know that some great guy in the sky did not wave his hand and create all of us, nor did we evolve from monkeys on our own. Combine that with all the overwhelming evidence that shows aliens have been coming here for thousands of years, and this is where I am now. I do not take any one single persons work as the cold hard facts. As I stated before, I have researched this subject since I was a kid, and to me it is undeniable. Take these people's (Danican & Sitchen)work out of the equation, you are still left with ancient cave paintings, renaissance art with UFOs in them, all the unexplained heiroglyphs in the Egyptian pyramids, the dropa stones, etc.... All the reading material I just posted was the best way for me to convey my beliefs so that everyone here could possibly understand where I am coming from. I must agree with you on the point that these theories are no more credible that "creationism", but I must say, they do make more sense. With all due respect Ethno....isn't everbody that supports the theory that aliens are here/visiting deemed a quack by the scientific community? We are taught at an early age that anything that can not be proven with science is simply not true, but this is something that is beyond our idea of "science". It cannot be proven, and that is exactly what they want....the government AND the aliens; for us to remain dumb and blind just like the herd of cattle we are in the pasture that is this universe

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An excellent response. But it is exactly that kind of archaeological and anthropological evidence that is taken out of context. I'll briefly examine some of what you mentioned.

First, let's look at the Dropa Stones. There is no evidence that the Dropa Stones ever existed in the first place. The only evidence are a few washed out photographs that do not match the literary description of the stones, including the "alien text" and the "deep groves". They are believed in fact to be photographs of "bi disc" reproductions, and poor ones at that. The earliest mention of them is in one of Erich's "Ancient Astronaut" books, discovered by an "official" expedition funded by a historical society that doesn't exist, by a Dr. Tsum Um Nui. Tsum Um Nui is not a real Chinese name, by the way (it is not pronouncable in any Chinese language), and there is no documentation for him ever having existed. The fact that they translated a completely "unknown" language is dubious, as this has never happened before; this is analogous to Joseph Smith translating the "Golden Tablets", and he supposedly had the help of an angel and the breast plate of the High Priest of Israel. The museums that supposedly had possession of these stones before they were "lost" said that Erich von Daniken simply made the story up for his book, and they never had possession of these artifacts, nor examined them. The secondary sources mentioning them were later proved to be hoaxes or "works of fiction", by the admittance of the actual authors, who support Daniken's theories. Lastly, the Dropa are not a "tribe of dwarf people" in China, but an actual Tibetan tribe that is quite average sized. When an anthropologist related the story to some of the tribal elders, they laughed their fucking heads off, one of them even urinating on himself he was laughing so hard. No one has produced evidence for the actual existence of these caves, the "alien bodies", or anything of the sort.

What neolithic cave painting depict spacecraft? Sources, please. The "Sorcerer" is one example of such an archaeological source being taken out of context. Erich once again believes it is an alien who upon visiting "morphed" himself into a beast before the eyes of "primitive" people. Every expert says that is it is either a shaman doing a dance for a hunt while wearing a headress (the most common consensus), or it depicts a spirit.

I'm quite familiar with Renaissance art and Art History. Everything from mannerism to the fantastic altar pieces of Hieronymus Bosch. Which paintings are they, and by whom are they painted? I assure you there are quite logical explanations that fit the timeperiod for whatever you put forth, and I can prove to you that the artist(s) in question did not have extraterrestrials in their worldview, let alone document any such sighting. There is no evidence of sightings, so far as I know, before the years leading up to this previous century. Coinciding with the appearance of science fiction.

And so far as I know, almost all of the Demotic hieroglyphs have been deciphere. I can even read some myself, though I'm more familiar with the Coptic phase of the Egyptian language. It is due to our familiarity with Coptic and Hieratic that these symbols can now be completely deciphered. If you're speaking of the depiction of what look like helicopters, some have suggested that the ancient Egyptians built flying craft themselves, and they haven't been laughed completely out of academia. That they are spacecraft is reaching... by leaps and bounds. Most likely though, they are a religious symbol comparable to the sun disc or the ankh. In fact, I believe Erich has even suggested the sun disc is a spacecraft as well. They may also be composite images: two or more images combined, which is common in hieroglyphs.

People have devoted their entire lives to researching these things. None of them have come up with these answers. If they believed it were so, they would certainly put their professional career on the line. That's science. It's the province of these supposed "quacks" who have neither the education nor the scruples to interpret what they see.

Your argument for a massive world-wide conspiracy is logically flawed. I'm willing to concede it's possible that some things occur. Perhaps something crashed in Roswell and the goverment covered it up. But you know what... other governments have asked to conduct their own investigations of it, so they're not taking it all out of the equation. But to change the actual archaeological and geological record, as well as world governments being UNITED in this effort? Educational institutitons? Scientists who want nothing more than the truth? What you're suggesting is basically the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" argument; the evidence is changed by his "noodly appendage", distorting the facts to challenge the faith of those who "know he exists." The same argument put forth by a good number of creation scientists. Yes, there are realms that the scientific community cannot even remotely begin to explore yet, but the theories of quantum mechanics such as "the multiverse" prove that they're not denying any possibilities, no matter how far-fetched they seem. They just want empirical evidence, and due to string theory, some of their theories are now actually panning out. Technology will advance, and we can look into some of the unexplored realms that are currently in the domain of the "paranormal". But... isn't it more likely that these "ancient astronaut researchers" have more reason to distort the evidence than any human agency that is otherwise considered reliable in other areas? And that since your childhood your need for this all to be true colours your perception of the actual evidence laid bare before you?

As I said before, it's possible that extraterrestrials exist. But the things you mentioned aren't technically "evidence". They're theories put forth to reinforce the worldviews of people who already believe what they're being told. Abductions and spacecraft sightings are more credible to people who are familiar with these fields, especially after these individuals have been proven to be involved in some very shady activities to support their claims.

~Ethno

Several good points there ethno', particularly on the emergence of aliens coinciding with science fiction...

Also how people's depictions of these aliens changed right in line with sci fi. Back in the 50's people were drawing pic's of monstrous beasts, now they are grey men, that look much more human. Man doesn't really fear beasts when he is in his own element, he fears other men. So giving the aliens a more man-like appearance has led to a greater fear, a greater sense of wonder...

I look at the evolution of life, and maybe my version of it is skewed, due to my tendency to take the fundamentals, and twist them around in my mind to form a logical opinion. Not knowing the intricacies has gotten me into trouble before... anyway, i look at evolution much like science looks at the birth of the universe. I believe all life started from a single strand of protein, and from there it exploded into every life form we have on the planet today, and some we probably don't. Just because we don't see the dodo anymore, doesn't mean it didn't simply evolve into something else.

So life is an evolution, a seeking out of the best way for a life form to survive given the set of circumstance (environment) it is forced to live in. Life has so many options to deal with the basics, that life has evolved all kinds of different ways to get them.

This would work the same way on other planets too... not only would you have these man-like aliens (if any) but you would also have a vast array of other life forms too. If these aliens were as advanced as they'd need to be to visit our planet, then they would not need to kidnap us, for there would be enough life forms on their own planet to study. They would also understand that all life pretty much works in the same way.

The sun is the giver of this life.

ya there's a story of them landing im my home state Rosewell n.m.

Here is a link to some of the oldest possible ufo and alien sightings ever and they are believed to be 40,000 years old or more.
If you scroll to the bottom of the page it shows cave paintings that are supposed to be of aliens and their craft(probably)

http://www.ufoarea.com/aas_ancientaustralia.html

I've decided to tone it down a bit, as I'm being overly critical for the sake of eliciting some skepticism out of people. But, people see whatever they want to see. This is a bit of as problem in historical anthropology and archaeology: people imposing their modern worldviews on ancient peoples. This doesn't just apply to the "ancient astronaut" theories. A similar problem, for instance, is imposing Western ideas on non-western peoples: a problem that plagued early anthropology in the scheme of the "evolution" of civilizations from "primitive" to civilized. But we've realized for a long time how to avoid this, and to take a subjective stance. People who believed in multiple gods are no more "primitive" than monotheists, for example. In fact, it's generally acknowledged by modern scholars that polytheism makes a bit more sense theologically, but we've been raised to believe it's a nonsensical idea and are thus prejudiced against it.

That's the problem I see with a lot of these theories. Bad science that's long been abandoned due to faulty logic and un-scientific views for better methods... Is creeping back in, at least in the case of these undeniably subjective authors. In the example of cave paintings from Australia and Italy, it's generally thought that these "space helmets" are nothing of the sort. They're halos, an artistic motif found in all cultures, during all ages. You can tell in part by the "lines" often within the halo, radiating from the head. Modern Australians, some of whom still draw these cave paintings on a regular basis, have also given interpretations referring back to their mythology (the Dreamtime), and are likely correct as many of these motifs are still depicted. Aboriginal art is also highly geometric compared to the art of other cultures, leading people to see meaning where there are none. Because Europeans came recently to Australia, we know more about Aboriginal Australian art than other forms of rock paintings, and the aborigines themselves deny such attributions to extraterrestrials based on their cultural knowledge. Also, it seems reasonable to me that extraterrestrials capable of travelling vast distances to our planet would wear something that doesn't resemble the technology of the 1960's Apollo missions. Force fields, bubble of breathable atmosphere, you name it. We're starting to abandon these designs now ourselves in favour of more practical designs in line with our own technological advancements, so it would stand to reason that visiting aliens who would by default have to be significantly more advanced than us would have discarded such technology long before they ever made it here.

~Ethno

Ethnobotanist said:

An excellent response. But it is exactly that kind of archaeological and anthropological evidence that is taken out of context. I'll briefly examine some of what you mentioned.

First, let's look at the Dropa Stones. There is no evidence that the Dropa Stones ever existed in the first place. The only evidence are a few washed out photographs that do not match the literary description of the stones, including the "alien text" and the "deep groves". They are believed in fact to be photographs of "bi disc" reproductions, and poor ones at that. The earliest mention of them is in one of Erich's "Ancient Astronaut" books, discovered by an "official" expedition funded by a historical society that doesn't exist, by a Dr. Tsum Um Nui. Tsum Um Nui is not a real Chinese name, by the way (it is not pronouncable in any Chinese language), and there is no documentation for him ever having existed. The fact that they translated a completely "unknown" language is dubious, as this has never happened before; this is analogous to Joseph Smith translating the "Golden Tablets", and he supposedly had the help of an angel and the breast plate of the High Priest of Israel. The museums that supposedly had possession of these stones before they were "lost" said that Erich von Daniken simply made the story up for his book, and they never had possession of these artifacts, nor examined them. The secondary sources mentioning them were later proved to be hoaxes or "works of fiction", by the admittance of the actual authors, who support Daniken's theories. Lastly, the Dropa are not a "tribe of dwarf people" in China, but an actual Tibetan tribe that is quite average sized. When an anthropologist related the story to some of the tribal elders, they laughed their fucking heads off, one of them even urinating on himself he was laughing so hard. No one has produced evidence for the actual existence of these caves, the "alien bodies", or anything of the sort.

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Perhaps the only way to know one way or the other would be to locate the caves in the Bayan-Kara-Ula Mountains and see if those tiny skeletons or, perhaps, more stone discs could be found.

Ethnobotanist said:

What neolithic cave painting depict spacecraft? Sources, please. The "Sorcerer" is one example of such an archaeological source being taken out of context. Erich once again believes it is an alien who upon visiting "morphed" himself into a beast before the eyes of "primitive" people. Every expert says that is it is either a shaman doing a dance for a hunt while wearing a headress (the most common consensus), or it depicts a spirit.

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UFO's in Earth's History - Crystalinks

Ancient Astronauts, Crystalinks

Ethnobotanist said:

I'm quite familiar with Renaissance art and Art History. Everything from mannerism to the fantastic altar pieces of Hieronymus Bosch. Which paintings are they, and by whom are they painted? I assure you there are quite logical explanations that fit the timeperiod for whatever you put forth, and I can prove to you that the artist(s) in question did not have extraterrestrials in their worldview, let alone document any such sighting. There is no evidence of sightings, so far as I know, before the years leading up to this previous century. Coinciding with the appearance of science fiction.

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http://www.2012.com.au/Historical.paintings.pdf

Ethnobotanist said:

And so far as I know, almost all of the Demotic hieroglyphs have been deciphere. I can even read some myself, though I'm more familiar with the Coptic phase of the Egyptian language. It is due to our familiarity with Coptic and Hieratic that these symbols can now be completely deciphered. If you're speaking of the depiction of what look like helicopters, some have suggested that the ancient Egyptians built flying craft themselves, and they haven't been laughed completely out of academia. That they are spacecraft is reaching... by leaps and bounds. Most likely though, they are a religious symbol comparable to the sun disc or the ankh. In fact, I believe Erich has even suggested the sun disc is a spacecraft as well. They may also be composite images: two or more images combined, which is common in hieroglyphs.

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You can see some of the images I'm talkin about in the earlier links. There is one that is plainly a helicopter, and another that has 2 greys standing on either side of a UFO.

Ethnobotanist said:

People have devoted their entire lives to researching these things. None of them have come up with these answers. If they believed it were so, they would certainly put their professional career on the line. That's science. It's the province of these supposed "quacks" who have neither the education nor the scruples to interpret what they see.

Your argument for a massive world-wide conspiracy is logically flawed. I'm willing to concede it's possible that some things occur. Perhaps something crashed in Roswell and the goverment covered it up. But you know what... other governments have asked to conduct their own investigations of it, so they're not taking it all out of the equation.

As I said before, it's possible that extraterrestrials exist. But the things you mentioned aren't technically "evidence". They're theories put forth to reinforce the worldviews of people who already believe what they're being told. Abductions and spacecraft sightings are more credible to people who are familiar with these fields, especially after these individuals have been proven to be involved in some very shady activities to support their claims.

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I'm sure those scientists would be ready to put their carrers on the line, but not their lives. Many people have been threatened with their life if they even dared to talk about the things they seen at Roswell, or at Wright Pat AFB in Ohio.

I never said that there was a "worldwide conspiracy". I just said that "the powers that be" want to keep us in the dark.Our own government still denies that a UFO crashed in Roswell in 1947, they damn sure aren't going to let other countries investigate the matter. On top of that, they have blatently lied to the public for so long, you actually think that they are just going to come out and say "Hey...you know what...there are aliens visiting here, and we recovered a craft. Then we took the technology we found and reverse engineered it." I think not. Besides, there are reports of other Roswell like occurences worldwide:

Famous UFO Crashes - UFO Evidence

skunkushybrid said:

Several good points there ethno', particularly on the emergence of aliens coinciding with science fiction...

Also how people's depictions of these aliens changed right in line with sci fi. Back in the 50's people were drawing pic's of monstrous beasts, now they are grey men, that look much more human. Man doesn't really fear beasts when he is in his own element, he fears other men. So giving the aliens a more man-like appearance has led to a greater fear, a greater sense of wonder...

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Once again Skunk, this is not correct. The first reported case of abduction was by Betty and Barney Hill in September 1961. They described their captors as being "small with whitish skin and large catlike eyes".
Betty and Barney Hill

Erniedytn said:

Once again Skunk, this is not correct. The first reported case of abduction was by Betty and Barney Hill in September 1961. They described their captors as being "small with whitish skin and large catlike eyes".
Betty and Barney Hill

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What about the rest of the reports from that era? They all bullshit?

Erniedytn said:

Once again Skunk, this is not correct. The first reported case of abduction was by Betty and Barney Hill in September 1961. They described their captors as being "small with whitish skin and large catlike eyes".
Betty and Barney Hill

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Ok here's a 1 liner from that link

One thing that sceptics cannot explain is, Betty could draw a detailed sketch of the star system Zeta Reticuli which is in the Reticulum constellation, 6 years before astronomers even discovered it?

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That's fantastic! With respect Ethno I would be interested to hear your views on how that could happen.

All the best

[edit] Dr. Simon's hypnosis sessions

Simon began hypnotizing the Hills on January 4, 1964. He hypnotized Betty and Barney several times each, and the sessions lasted until June 6, 1964. Simon conducted the sessions on Barney and Betty separately, so they could not overhear one another's recollections.

[edit] Barney's sessions

Simon hypnotized Barney first. His sessions were often quite emotional, punctuated with angry outbursts, expressions of fear, and episodes of hysterical crying. Barney said that, due to his fear, he kept his eyes closed for much of the UFO encounter. Based on these early responses, Simon told Barney that he would not remember the hypnosis sessions until they were certain he could remember them without being further traumatised.
Under hypnosis, Barney also reported that the binocular strap had broken when he ran from the UFO back to his car. He recalled driving the car away from the UFO, but that afterwards he felt irresistibly compelled to pull off the road, and drive into the woods. He eventually sighted six men standing in the woods. Commanding Barney to stop driving, three of the men approached the car. They told Barney to not fear them. He was still anxious, however, and he reported that the leader told Barney to close his eyes. While hypnotized, Barney said, "I felt like the eyes had pushed into my eyes." (Clark, 284)
Barney described the creatures as generally similar to Betty's hypnotic, not dream recollection. However, he described their eyes as being much larger, extending even to the sides of their heads. The creatures often stared into his eyes, said Barney, with a terrifying, mesmerizing effect. Under hypnosis, Barney said things like, "Only the eyes are talking to me" (Clark 291) and "All I see are these eyes... I'm not even afraid that they're not connected to a body. They're just there. They're just up close to me, pressing against my eyes." (Clark 291)
Barney related that he and Betty were taken onto the disc-shaped craft, where he and Betty were separated. Taken to a room by three of the short men. they undressed Barney and was told to lie on a rectangular exam table. Unlike Betty, Barney's narrative of the exam was fragmented, and he continued to keep his eyes closed for most of the exam. A cup-like device was placed over his genitals. He did not experience an orgasm though Barney thought that a sperm sample had been taken. The men scraped his skin, and peered in his ears and mouth. A tube or cylinder was inserted in his anus. They pressed his chest and pinched his nipples very hard.Someone felt his spine, and seemed to be counting his vertebrae.
While Betty reported extended conversations with the creatures in English, Barney said that he heard them speaking in a mumbling language he did not understand. The few times they communicated with him, Barney said it seemed to be "thought transference"; at that time, he was unfamiliar with the word "telepathy". (Clark, 285)
He recalled being escorted from the ship, and taken to his car, which was now near the road rather than in the woods. In a daze, he watched the ship leave. Barney remembered a light appearing on the road, and he said, "Oh no, not again." He recalled Betty's speculation that the light might have been the moon, though the moon had in fact set several hours earlier.

[edit] Betty's sessions

Betty's hypnosis sessions were not as eventful. Under hypnosis, her account was very similar to the events of her recurrent dreams about the UFO encounter, with two notable differences: under hypnosis, the short men did not have large noses, and they had no hair. Simon suggested that Betty sketch a copy of the "star map". She hesitated, thinking she would be unable to accurately depict the three-dimensional quality of the map she says she saw on the ship. Eventually, however, she did what Simon suggested. Although she said the map had many stars, she drew only those that stood out in her memory. Her map consisted of twelve prominent stars connected by lines and three lesser ones that formed a distinctive triangle. (see below) She said she was told the stars connected by solid lines formed "trade routes" whereas dashed lines were to less-traveled stars.

[edit] Dr. Simon's conclusions

After extensive hypnosis sessions, Dr. Simon concluded that Barney's recall of the UFO encounter was a fantasy inspired by Betty's recurrent dreams. Though Simon admitted this hypothesis did not explain every aspect of the experience, he thought it was the most plausible and consistent explanation. Barney rejected this idea, noting that while their memories were in some regards interlocking, there were also portions of both their narratives that were unique to each. Barney was now ready to accept that they had been abducted by the occupants of a UFO, though he never embraced it as fully as Betty did.
Though the Hills and Simon disagreed about the nature of the case, they all concurred that the hypnosis sessions were effective: the Hills were no longer tormented by nightmares or anxiety about the UFO encounter.
Afterwards, Simon wrote an article about the Hills for the journal Psychiatric Opinion, explaining his conclusions that the case was a singular psychological aberration.

[edit] "Deciphering" the star map


Map of Zeta Reticuli, according to Betty Hill and Marjorie Fish


In 1968, Marjorie Fish of Oak Harbor, Ohio read Fuller's Interrupted Journey. She was an elementary school teacher and amateur astronomer. Intrigued by the "star map", Fish wondered if it might be "deciphered" to determine which star system the UFO came from.
Assuming that one of the fifteen stars on the map must represent the Earth's sun, Fish constructed a 3-dimensional model of nearby sun-like stars using thread and beads, basing stellar distances on those published in the 1969 Gliese Star Catalog. Studying thousands of vantage points over several years, the only one that seemed to match the Hill map was from the viewpoint of the double star system of Zeta Reticuli. Therefore she concluded that the UFO might have come from planets orbiting Zeta Reticuli.
As a result of Fish's hypothesis, some have dubbed the Hills' account The Zeta Reticuli Incident. Most Ufologists, however, continue to prefer the Hill Abduction or some similar term.
Distance information needed to match three stars, forming the distinctive triangle Hill said she remembered, was not generally available until the 1969 Gliese Catalog came out. Fish also was the first to note that all the stars on the map connected by lines (which Betty Hill said she was told were trade or frequently-traveled routes) fell in a plane, with Zeta Reticuli acting as a hub. Thus the displayed routes would be the most logical and efficient way of exploring the nearby stellar neighborhood for a civilization located in Zeta Reticuli. These points played critical roles in the subsequent debates over the validity of the Fish match to the Hill map.
Fish sent her analysis to Webb. Agreeing with her conclusions, Webb sent the map to Terrence Dickinson, editor of the journal Astronomy. Dickinson did not endorse Fish and Webb's conclusions, but he was intrigued, and, for the first time in the journal's history, Astronomy invited comments and debate on a UFO report, starting with an opening article in the December 1974 issue. For about a year afterwards, the opinions page of Astronomy carried arguments pro and con regarding Fish's star map. Notable was an argument made by Carl Sagan and Stephen Soter[1], arguing that the seeming "star map" was little more than a random alignment of chance points. In contrast, those more favorable to the map, such as Dr. David Saunders, a statistician who had been on the Condon UFO study, argued that unusual alignment of key sun-like stars in a plane centered around Zeta Reticuli (first described by Fish) was statistically improbable to have happened by chance from a random group of stars in our immediate neighborhood. [2]
It was also pointed out that Zeta Reticuli is highly unusual in being the only known example of a wide double star system consisting of two stars very similar to the sun. One of the articles in the Astronomy magazine debate, on the ages of the stars in the Hill/Fish map, said evidence pointed to the Reticulan system being 1 to 3 billion years older than our own, with the suggestion that this would have permitted another intelligence race to have evolved much sooner than we did and be considerably more advanced. Furthermore, it was noted the two stars are very close together (now believed to be only 1/8 light year apart), whereas the nearest star similar to the sun, Tau Ceti, is 12 light years away. It was argued that the closeness of the two sun-like stars would likely have acted as a considerable spur to developing interstellar travel.
However, it was also noted that the Zeta Reticulan stars are metal poor compared to the sun, raising questions as to whether a solar system like our own would have developed, whether sufficient carbon existed for life to have even arisen, or whether sufficient quantities of such metals would have been available to create a technological civilization even if there was an earthlike planet and advanced life in the Reticulan system.
Skeptic Robert Sheaffer in an accompanying article said that a map devised by Charles W. Atterberg, about the same time as Fish, was an even better match to Hill's map and made more sense. The base stars, Epsilon Indi and Epsilon Eridani plus the others were also closer to the sun than the Hill map. Fish counterargued that the base stars in the Atterberg map were considered much less likely to harbor life than Zeta Reticuli and the map lacked a consistent grouping of sun-like stars along the lined routes, unlike her map.
In 1993, a new theory with regard to the map in question (as drawn by Betty Hill under hypnosis) was proposed. Two German crop circle researchers, Joachim Koch and Hans-Jürgen Kyborg, proposed that the map was, in reality, drawn from the perspective of the alien spacecraft as it was positioned to the eyes of the Hill's in the solar system on September 16, 1961 along U.S. Route 3 near Lincoln, NH.[

[edit] Analysis

• Psychiatrists reportedly later suggested that the supposed abduction was a hallucination brought on by the stress of being an interracial couple in early 60s America. [5] Betty discounted this suggestion, noting her relationship with Barney was happy, and their interracial marriage caused no notable problems with their friends or family. As noted in The Interrupted Journey, Dr. Simon thought that the Hills marital status had nothing to do with the UFO encounter.
• Critics have suggested the Hills' hypnosis brought on confabulation — the blending of fantasy with memory — arguing that recovered memories are unreliable.[citation needed]
• 
  An alien seen on TV 12 days prior to the making of Hill's 'Grey' hypnosis tape
  
  
  In his 1990 article Entirely Unpredisposed, Martin Kottmeyer suggested that Barney's memories revealed under hypnosis might have been influenced by an episode of the science fiction television show The Outer Limits titled "The Bellero Shield", which was broadcast about two weeks before Barney's first hypnotic session. The episode featured an extraterrestrial with large eyes who says, "In all the universes, in all the unities beyond the universes, all who have eyes have eyes that speak." The report from the regression featured a scenario that was in some respects similar to the television show. In part, Kottmeyer wrote:

"Wraparound eyes are an extreme rarity in science fiction films. I know of only one instance. They appeared on the alien of an episode of an old TV series "The Outer Limits" entitled "The Bellero Shield". A person familiar with Barney's sketch in "The Interrupted Journey" and the sketch done in collaboration with the artist David Baker will find a "frisson" of "deja vu" creeping up his spine when seeing this episode. The resemblance is much abetted by an absence of ears, hair, and nose on both aliens. Could it be by chance? Consider this: Barney first described and drew the wraparound eyes during the hypnosis session dated 22 February 1964. "The Bellero Shield" was first broadcast on "10 February 1964. Only twelve days separate the two instances. If the identification is admitted, the commonness of wraparound eyes in the abduction literature falls to cultural forces." (see "external links" below for Kottmeyer's full article.) Though Betty was alive when Kottmeyer made his claims, he never sought her out to ask if she or Barney had seen the episode. When a different researcher asked Betty about The Outer Limits, she insisted she had "never heard of it". (Clark, 291) She further noted that it was unlikely that Barney would have seen the episode in question because he usually worked in the evenings when the episode was broadcast, and when Barney was home in the evenings, Betty reported that they were both usually occupied with the NAACP or other community activities.

• Folklorist Dr. Thomas E. Bullard agrees that the similarities between "The Bellero Shield" and Barney's story are in fact striking and "persuasive", but he also notes that there are several facts that blunt the impact of the similarities: First, it has not been demonstrated conclusively that Barney watched the episode in question, and, second, as Bullard writes, in Barney's "earlier, conscious recall ... he remembered a being with compelling eyes looking down at him from a UFO." (Bullard, 15; included in Clark, 199 Bullard thinks it plausible that the Outer Limits episode might have helped shape Barney's hypnotically recalled memory, but he also stresses that Barney's "preoccupation with the staring entity and its eyes began years before this television image could have influenced him." (Bullard, 15; included in Clark, 199
• A new site has proposed a solution to the Hill's abduction story, arguing that a common but little known feature of human physiology related to the human vision "startle reflex" — in conjunction with confabulation — may explain the Hills' episode.

Ok Mr SKB I read all that the pro's and the cons but look at an excerpt from it.

Dr. David Saunders, a statistician who had been on the Condon UFO study, argued that unusual alignment of key sun-like stars in a plane centered around Zeta Reticuli (first described by Fish) was statistically improbable to have happened by chance from a random group of stars in our immediate neighborhood. [2]

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Interesting no?

skunkushybrid said:

What about the rest of the reports from that era? They all bullshit?

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See that's the thing man, it's hard to weed out what is bullshit and what could be concieved as probable. The point I was trying to make is that not all of the early abduction cases specify big monsters as being their captors. There are quite a few cases that change with the sci-fi times I agree, but not all of them. I'm not sure what you are getting at with all the info you just posted, I will have to take some time and read it all. I will report back after.

One thing that sceptics cannot explain is, Betty could draw a detailed sketch of the star system Zeta Reticuli which is in the Reticulum constellation, 6 years before astronomers even discovered it?

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This is fascinating to me because Zeta Reticulu is supposed to be where the greys are from.

OK I get it.....that's basically an unbiased detailed report of the incident and the hypnosis sessions. It does present some pretty good evidence for both sides. This is my favorite:

The few times they communicated with him, Barney said it seemed to be "thought transference"; at that time, he was unfamiliar with the word "telepathy".

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So this man did not even know what telepathy was, but he reported that to be their means of communications, which, once again, goes hand in hand with the abduction cases reported today.

Here's another interesting abduction story; they even made a movie out of this one called "Fire In the Sky":

The Walton Experience - An Ordinary Day

Here is his official website:

The Official Travis Walton Web Site

What do you think?