Alright, A few serious questions about Obama's 'historic speech' n a few other things

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HotNSexyMILF

Well-Known Member
My grandmother is a hard core democrat, always has been, and always will tow the party line no matter where it leads. She knows I will vote for Ron Paul no matter what anyone says. However she asked that I watch Obama's speech online anyways as the whole media is saying it will be as historic as King's "I have a dream" speech and JFK's "Ask not what your country can do for you" speech. (I do not have tv here, by choice)

Some of you know I have dial up (again by choice, I won't give my money to corporations that think it's ok to spy on you) so, you can imagine how long it took for me to buffer all the parts to Obama's speech- but I love my grandmother and was curious to see the ridiculous rhetoric Obama was feeding the public this time. After watching his speech I even went a step further and checked out his site (shutters) to see the 'map out' of how he was going to amass all this "change"- especially regarding the economy.

As a former resident of Illinois, born and raised, I personally knew that Obama has done basically nothing note worthy and consistently did not show up to vote when there were controversial bills.

Now, to my questions..
First regarding this speech-

1. When did the 'American dream' become the 'American promise'? Who made this promise of the perfect life for everyone equally and where did this idea come from?

2. Why is the idea that working hard, (yes, even when you have nothing) to carve out a life for yourself a laughable idea? And when did the idea of working (on your own) to make your life better become an outdated seemingly 'unAmerican' idea?

3. When did the state become our nanny and promise to be there for our every trip through life? As I always understood, when you became an adult 'you were on your own'. When did this idea become outdated and no longer a part of the American way of life?

4. How come Obama keeps laying all governmental problems of the last 8 years at the feet of the Bush administration? I am by no means a fan of Bush AT ALL, however over the past two years particularly the DEMOCRATIC Congress has been supporting Bush, supporting the outrageous spending, and continuing to fund the wars overseas. I fail to see how only the Republicans can be blamed as the Democrats have been complacent through the whole war and amassing of debt.

5. Obama had criticized McCain's comment about how American's were a 'bunch of winers'. Again, I am no McCain fan at all, but I tend to agree. Obama also claimed these were not the American's he knew. How could that be so when he's standing for all the American's who are standing around wining that they need handouts? If in fact the 'Americans he knew' worked hard, gave back, and kept going without complaints like he claims- why would his base be welfare supporters?


Now, about Obama's stated economic reform policies..

The biggest question I have is

1. WHERE THE FUCK IS ALL THIS MONEY GOING TO COME FROM??? Nearly every single one of his points in his plan to fix the economy involves billions of dollars (most interestingly $10 billion, seems to be his 'fix it number'). Many policies include the $10 billion per policy, other's include 'double federal funding', and ever more policies that will be funded by the federal government to create millions of new jobs. All while stating he is going to hand out so many tax credits that millions of Americans will end up paying zero income tax overall. So again I ask- where is this money going to come from? I see only two options, either a. he is going to greatly expand the national debt that he criticizes so or b. he's just going to print the money out of nothing, further wrecking the economy by making everyone's dollar worth even less.



So please, Obama supporters enlighten me..
 
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shontay12

Active Member
You know you make a good point,I have been listening to all of his promises and they all SOUND great but I have always asked where is the money going to come from ,someone told me he would raise taxes but that is one of his great promises that he wouldn't so I checked out his speech also to see if he would give up a plan on how to accomplish everything he promises and nothing,I'm still on the fence when it comes to him until I hear some definite plans but for now I'm inclined to believe he is full of shit like the rest which is disappointing because he is suppose to be about change.
 
Microdizzey

Microdizzey

Well-Known Member
you do know what his change is right?

GLOBAL COMMUNITY AND CITIZENSHIP. of course, he isn't going to tell you that, yet.
 
H

HotNSexyMILF

Well-Known Member
medicineman said:
One word, tax the rich. Well that's three words but you get the drift.
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The top 1% of American taxpayers already pay 40% of all income taxes- the highest level in 40 years. That same top 1%, earns 22% of all income. The top 10% of income earners pay 71% of the taxes.

I'm just saying, how long do you think it will take before the rich get sick of paying for all these socialism programs and leave?
 
medicineman

medicineman

New Member
HotNSexyMILF said:
The top 1% of American taxpayers already pay 40% of all income taxes- the highest level in 40 years. That same top 1%, earns 22% of all income. The top 10% of income earners pay 71% of the taxes.

I'm just saying, how long do you think it will take before the rich get sick of paying for all these socialism programs and leave?
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The top 1% make more than the bottom 150 Million, what say you to this??? I say tax them till they bleed and bring everyone up to a decent living. Use the money to creat jobs, feed and house the homeless, educate the poor, free medical to all citizens, export the illegals. Make this the best and most humane country on the planet. An America that takes care of it's own and provides opportunities for all. Let them leave. I believe there is a law that they can't take more than ten grand at a time, and if there isn't, we'll pass one. Wow, the haters are going to line up now.
 
ViRedd

ViRedd

New Member
medicineman said:
One word, tax the rich. Well that's three words but you get the drift.
Click to expand...
Yep, that's O'Bama's plan, exactly ... and it appeals to those who belong to and support the Blood Sucking Party ... the Democrats.

See, the new American Dream is similar to the Old American Dream in a sense. It used to be that you graduated High School, entered a trade, worked hard, were frugal and saved your money, made some investments, started a business, grew that business and if you were lucky, you became one of the wealthy in the country and stood as something for other Americans to strive for.

Now, we have the New American Dream, where most of the old way is still in effect, with this difference: There is a limit on success. As soon as a person becomes "too successful," the Blood Sucking Party will punish that success by taxing it away. At that point, your hard-earned wealth is taken by force, at the point of a gun if necessary and used to increase the unearned income of those who either support the Blood Sucking Party, or used to gain even more power by those who run the Blood Sucking Party.

Now then, if only they would define how much success is too much success, so we could stop being successful right before they start Sucking the Blood, all would be fine. But to date, they won't define it.

Vi
 
medicineman

medicineman

New Member
ViRedd said:
Yep, that's O'Bama's plan, exactly ... and it appeals to those who belong to and support the Blood Sucking Party ... the Democrats.

See, the new American Dream is similar to the Old American Dream in a sense. It used to be that you graduated High School, entered a trade, worked hard, were frugal and saved your money, made some investments, started a business, grew that business and if you were lucky, you became one of the wealthy in the country and stood as something for other Americans to strive for.

Now, we have the New American Dream, where most of the old way is still in effect, with this difference: There is a limit on success. As soon as a person becomes "too successful," the Blood Sucking Party will punish that success by taxing it away. At that point, your hard-earned wealth is taken by force, at the point of a gun if necessary and used to increase the unearned income of those who either support the Blood Sucking Party, or used to gain even more power by those who run the Blood Sucking Party.

Now then, if only they would define how much success is too much success, so we could stop being successful right before they start Sucking the Blood, all would be fine. But to date, they won't define it.

Vi
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And the first hater shows up!
 
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HotNSexyMILF

Well-Known Member
I've heard this concept before.. socialism. That step between capitalism and communism. The state gives you your food, the state gives you your job, the state gives you your house, the state provides your health care, the state provides your retirement, the state makes sure everyone is equal..redistribution so everyone has the same.

I just don't understand the appeal of this, as Americans aren't we supposed to be inherently against this? I'm really not trying to be rude or anything, I just don't understand the appeal.
 
medicineman

medicineman

New Member
HotNSexyMILF said:
I've heard this concept before.. socialism. That step between capitalism and communism. The state gives you your food, the state gives you your job, the state gives you your house, the state provides your health care, the state provides your retirement, the state makes sure everyone is equal..redistribution so everyone has the same.

I just don't understand the appeal of this, as Americans aren't we supposed to be inherently against this? I'm really not trying to be rude or anything, I just don't understand the appeal.
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I never said the state should give you all this, just the opportunity to get it. Lets say that 1/2 the people in this country are living from hand to mouth, miss one pay check and you're next to homeless. With the right policies, we could take some of the cream off the top and offer it up to those in need. All these people losing their homes are not doing the general economy any good, we need to help these homeowners, and fuck the speculators, only primary residences. We need to offer these vacated properties to people that can't afford a house, make a few available to the homeless. There are ways to fix this mess, it will just require those with the most to give up some of the gold.
 
Johnnyorganic

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
medicineman said:
The top 1% make more than the bottom 150 Million, what say you to this???
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If the top 1% earns 22% of income, you claim its share is more than the income bottom 50% combined. This would make sense since the bottom half only pays 3% of Federal income taxes.
The latest figures from the IRS (for tax year 2006) show that while the top 1 percent do indeed pay 40 percent of all taxes, their share of total income is only 22 percent. The share of taxes they pay is nearly double the share of income they receive.
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HeraldNet: Top earners do, in fact, pay the most
medicineman said:
I say tax them till they bleed and bring everyone up to a decent living. Use the money to creat jobs, feed and house the homeless, educate the poor, free medical to all citizens, export the illegals. Make this the best and most humane country on the planet. An America that takes care of it's own and provides opportunities for all. Let them leave. I believe there is a law that they can't take more than ten grand at a time, and if there isn't, we'll pass one. Wow, the haters are going to line up now.
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It simply does not add up. Seize wealth and the wealthy will flee with as much wealth as they can escape with. Once the seized wealth is depleted, the generous government programs will continue to demand funding. Where will these tax revenues come from?

Does it not occur to you that targeted and punitive taxes will drive the very people who hold the keys to our economic engine out of the country?

This overt class warfare championed by the New Left frightens me. It is eerily reminiscent of another time in another country where things were not going so well domestically either, so an entire race of people were scapegoated. We all know how that ended up.

You think Atlas Shrugged is a Libertarian fantasy? We'll find out if Obama has the juice to make it across the finish line first. Especially if he gets a filibuster-proof Senate majority. (Personally, I think he won't win.) If that happens, Galt's Gulches will spring up everywhere. The Caribbean looks like a good candidate to host many enclaves of the powerful and wealthy waiting it out. Once the collapse occurs they may return. After the chips fall.
 
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HotNSexyMILF

Well-Known Member
What will anyone have to work for if you can get all your needs met by the government?
What incentives will people have to become successful? It will become more of a burden if you do find success.

Even with a tax increase on the wealthy, I hardly believe it will add up to the tens and tens of billions of dollars Obama's economic policies call for.. he preaches a return to government fiscal responsibility, though I see little of that even in his proposed policies.

Please point me out where I am wrong..
 
ViRedd

ViRedd

New Member
Those last two posts by Johnny and MILF were great!

One thing I've learned on this site ... you cannot get logical points to pierce the concrete brain of Med.

Johnny sez ...

"Does it not occur to you that targeted and punitive taxes will drive the very people who hold the keys to our economic engine out of the country?"

Its already happened, Johnny. We have the second largest corporate tax rate on the planet, second only to Japan. And what do we have? ... Folks like Med clamoring for even higher corporate taxes, while at the same time, slamming corporations for "taking jobs out of the country." These people are either dupes or liars. What they are REALLY against is the capitalist system. Their dream is a socialist/communist/fascist, Utopian society that THEY run.

Vi

 
Johnnyorganic

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
ViRedd said:
Those last two posts by Johnny and MILF were great!

One thing I've learned on this site ... you cannot get logical points to pierce the concrete brain of Med.

Johnny sez ...

"Does it not occur to you that targeted and punitive taxes will drive the very people who hold the keys to our economic engine out of the country?"

Its already happened, Johnny. We have the second largest corporate tax rate on the planet, second only to Japan. And what do we have? ... Folks like Med clamoring for even higher corporate taxes, while at the same time, slamming corporations for "taking jobs out of the country." These people are either dupes or liars. What they are REALLY against is the capitalist system. Their dream is a socialist/communist/fascist, Utopian society that THEY run.

Vi
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Thanks Vi. MILF is quite astute.

No question. Progressive taxation and onerous regulation have chased mountains of capital out of the country and made it very hard to become affluent. I'm not referring to the people who have left already.

I'm talking about the 1% who were here the last time taxes were reported. That 1% here now, but for how long?

Maybe we can keep the onslaught at bay for one more election cycle. That may be enough time. Time for me to implement my own survival plan before the Altruists get their way. It is doubtful I can implement an escape plan in such a short time.
 
H

HotNSexyMILF

Well-Known Member
ViRedd said:
Those last two posts by Johnny and MILF were great!
What they are REALLY against is the capitalist system. Their dream is a socialist/communist/fascist, Utopian society that THEY run.

Vi
Click to expand...
Johnnyorganic said:
MILF is quite astute.

Maybe we can keep the onslaught at bay for one more election cycle. That may be enough time. Time for me to implement my own survival plan before the Altruists get their way. It is doubtful I can implement an escape plan in such a short time.
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Thank you both of you, I've enjoyed both of your posts as well.

I too see the push for a socialist society- what I can't understand is how the public is going along with it. Our history is based on principles starkly opposed to this.

I too Johnny have been working a survival plan of getting ready for this mess I see accumulating.. escape isn't an option- not only by time and money, but I guess in my heart I can't run. I love this country, it runs deep in my blood- I'll go down with the ship fighting the whole way before I leave. :peace:
 
ViRedd

ViRedd

New Member
MILF sez ...

"what I can't understand is how the public is going along with it. Our history is based on principles starkly opposed to this."

I used to wonder the same thing, MILF. Here's what I "think" I've discovered:

We have evolved into a society of people that have an entitlement mentality. Once upon a time (I know, it sounds like a fairy tale), Americans were a fiercely independent class of people. Self reliant to the core, government handouts were considered socially unacceptable. A person "lost face" by taking money from their fellow citizens through welfare. Now, there is no limit and we have become a people who plunder each other with abandon. Med and I plunder the young workers by collecting Social Security checks. The homeowner plunders via the mortgage tax write-offs. The farmer plunders through farm subsidies. New businesses plunder through low-interest government loans. The veteran (God bless 'em) plunders through insured loans and "free," subsidized education. Corporations plunder by contributing to political campaigns, then getting favorable tax treatment. In other words, we all have a hand in each other's wallet.

You'r absolutely correct in your assessment that our history is based on the opposite of the above. But ... we now have revised history taught in our government schools. Why would the government want the truth taught, and that truth is: the intent of the founders was a small, non-intrusive central government, with power residing in the several states? A separation of powers, with no one branch of government having the final say? That the value of money was to be contained in precious metal? That the federal government was to "PROMOTE the general welfare" ... and not PROVIDE the general welfare? That whatever income a citizen earns, how he/she earns it, and how he/she spends it, is none of the government's business, as long as the rights of another are not violated in the process?

Again, why would a government, and the leige lords who run it, want these truths to be known to the Average Joe and Jane and blow the whole scam?


If these truths were to become common knowledge, as they once were, I honestly believe the pitchfork brigades would be marching on Washington as we speak.

Vi


 
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HotNSexyMILF

Well-Known Member
I agree with you Vi.. though it makes me sad to.

I find myself wandering lonely in a country with lost values I cherish, with few to keep me company.. Some people may think because of my libertarian views I must have an easy life and I must not live in poverty. Though I do, by choice, and with pride.

As a teenager I got pregnant, my family ridiculed me as I wouldn't take government assistance for myself or my daughter, I was ridiculed for not going to work and throwing my daughter in daycare to be raised by others. I was ridiculed for living with my mother while I taught myself to make and design clothing then start up a small business so I could stay at home with my daughter and carve out an existence for myself. I slowly paid off the thousands of dollars in hospital and doctor bills from my daughters birth over the past two years, my financial burdens were relieved when a private donor through the hospital paid off the last grand I owed- inspired by my desire to do things myself. People still wonder why I won't take the handout, the government would easily give me free health care for myself and my child, food stamps, a welfare check. I can't take it, I don't want it. Many do not understand my decision, as from their view I have made life a hell of a lot harder for myself. But honestly, I look around and all I see is that society has robbed people of the most precious thing- the pride from their accomplishments. Today we have 100 people standing around, waiting to do all the things you can do for yourself. Nothing beats the feelings of knowing I DID IT.

I have to go get my Sinatra cassette.. "But though it all when there was doubt I ate it up and spit it out. I faced it all and I stood tall and did it my way."

There is no better feeling.
 
mockingbird131313

mockingbird131313

Well-Known Member
Johnnyorganic said:
Thanks Vi. MILF is quite astute.

No question. Progressive taxation and onerous regulation have chased mountains of capital out of the country and made it very hard to become affluent. I'm not referring to the people who have left already.

I'm talking about the 1% who were here the last time taxes were reported. That 1% here now, but for how long?

Maybe we can keep the onslaught at bay for one more election cycle. That may be enough time. Time for me to implement my own survival plan before the Altruists get their way. It is doubtful I can implement an escape plan in such a short time.
Click to expand...

I have a few friends in that 1% group. They do take their investment money off shore when the taxes go up. But, if the taxes stay down, they invest in America. It is really pretty simple behavior, to observe.
 
ViRedd

ViRedd

New Member
MILF ....

I LOVED your last post. I predict that you will have a full, prosperous and rewarding life. And, your daughter will have one as well because you will pass your values on to her.

Vi
 
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