Anyone ever used or use a Microbiometer?

ClaytonNewbilFontaine

Well-Known Member
Is it an unnecessary gadget? I've been doing some reading about it, but it's so hard to sift between advice that's being paid for by the company. I just real peoples experience with the thing. If anyone even uses it.

This is it
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
Is it an unnecessary gadget? I've been doing some reading about it, but it's so hard to sift between advice that's being paid for by the company. I just real peoples experience with the thing. If anyone even uses it.

This is it
I don't mean to sound like a smart ass when I say this, and I very well could be wrong, but couldn't our plants themselves be considered "microbiometers"?

The plants we grow are a direct reflection of what is below in our soils. You can get a guesstimate of whether your soil is fungal or bacterial dominate based on pH, and visual cues such as fungal webs, spores, and well, fungi (mushrooms).

Again, not to be a smart ass and I could be wrong. But this just seems unnecessary to me, personally.
 

ClaytonNewbilFontaine

Well-Known Member
I don't mean to sound like a smart ass when I say this, and I very well could be wrong, but couldn't our plants themselves be considered "microbiometers"?

The plants we grow are a direct reflection of what is below in our soils. You can get a guesstimate of whether your soil is fungal or bacterial dominate based on pH, and visual cues such as fungal webs, spores, and well, fungi (mushrooms).

Again, not to be a smart ass and I could be wrong. But this just seems unnecessary to me, personally.
No man you don't sound that way. I appreciate the honestly. I'd prob struggle at my experience level to be able to judge that way. But I'm not sure the meter would help much either. I've still got very much to learn about living soil. I'm hammering away at it though. Thanks for the reply.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
No man you don't sound that way. I appreciate the honestly. I'd prob struggle at my experience level to be able to judge that way. But I'm not sure the meter would help much either. I've still got very much to learn about living soil. I'm hammering away at it though. Thanks for the reply.

Appreciate that! I'm no expert either, and with how much there is to learn about microbes and living soil, I doubt anyone could be even if they had multiple lifetimes. In fact, there are about one trillion species of microbes on Earth, and 99.999 percent of them have yet to be discovered.

All I'm going on is my personal experiences with living soil. With most growing methods, people see a sick plant and attempt to fix the plant. But with a living soil, when we living soil growers see a sick plant, we're actually seeing a "sick" and "unbalanced" soil microbiology. The plant is simply a reflection of what is below.

The best experience is through trial and error. Don't be afraid to fuck things up and take note of what works for you, no one grow is the same.

As for the meter, I'm sure it's a pretty nifty little gadget for sure. I just hate to pull out my wallet unless absolutely necessary, and I say that as someone whose soil consists of a literal handful of ingredients.

40% peat/40% aeration/20% compost instead of the 1:1:1 ratio. I prefer the extra drainage, opting in favor to top dress with compost as opposed to incorporating it into the soil. Eventually, the peat moss will decompose and become compost as well, hence the extra aeration/drainage.

I get my NPK from urine (N), a cheap $10 bag of bone meal from the hardware store (P and Ca), and a 50lb bag of Lanbeinite for $80 (K, Mg, S). I use TM7 for my micronutrients.

My personal opinion, and experience, is that you can grow plants with a simple soil and a handful of inputs. I believe that anyone that tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something 99% of the time. My advice would be to keep things as simple as possible, and simplify them even more as you go.

You'll get there in no time! In the meanwhile, enjoy the journey, have fun, and all the best in growing big, beautiful, dank buds.
 

ClaytonNewbilFontaine

Well-Known Member
Appreciate that! I'm no expert either, and with how much there is to learn about microbes and living soil, I doubt anyone could be even if they had multiple lifetimes. In fact, there are about one trillion species of microbes on Earth, and 99.999 percent of them have yet to be discovered.

All I'm going on is my personal experiences with living soil. With most growing methods, people see a sick plant and attempt to fix the plant. But with a living soil, when we living soil growers see a sick plant, we're actually seeing a "sick" and "unbalanced" soil microbiology. The plant is simply a reflection of what is below.

The best experience is through trial and error. Don't be afraid to fuck things up and take note of what works for you, no one grow is the same.

As for the meter, I'm sure it's a pretty nifty little gadget for sure. I just hate to pull out my wallet unless absolutely necessary, and I say that as someone whose soil consists of a literal handful of ingredients.

40% peat/40% aeration/20% compost instead of the 1:1:1 ratio. I prefer the extra drainage, opting in favor to top dress with compost as opposed to incorporating it into the soil. Eventually, the peat moss will decompose and become compost as well, hence the extra aeration/drainage.

I get my NPK from urine (N), a cheap $10 bag of bone meal from the hardware store (P and Ca), and a 50lb bag of Lanbeinite for $80 (K, Mg, S). I use TM7 for my micronutrients.

My personal opinion, and experience, is that you can grow plants with a simple soil and a handful of inputs. I believe that anyone that tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something 99% of the time. My advice would be to keep things as simple as possible, and simplify them even more as you go.

You'll get there in no time! In the meanwhile, enjoy the journey, have fun, and all the best in growing big, beautiful, dank buds.
That was very helpful to read. What's you stance on compost teas. At first I was hearing ask this great stuff, but I realized a lot of that info was from a few years ago. I'm reading more about it not being as effective as just top dressing with compost. Why take the microbes out of the soil just to put them back in. I don't know enough and you can find info supporting either opinion. But if I don't have to go through the process of brewing it that would be better.

I've got everything together, almost, to make my first soil. My plan is to follow Coot's mix. Then I thought about getting my soil tested and contacting the soil doctor for consulting. It's for more than just the soil, I thought it would be a good chance to learn. I've got a bunch of questions and like I said it's hard to find legit info. I know a lot of growers use him for help with getting their soil dialed in.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
That was very helpful to read. What's you stance on compost teas. At first I was hearing ask this great stuff, but I realized a lot of that info was from a few years ago. I'm reading more about it not being as effective as just top dressing with compost. Why take the microbes out of the soil just to put them back in. I don't know enough and you can find info supporting either opinion. But if I don't have to go through the process of brewing it that would be better.

I've got everything together, almost, to make my first soil. My plan is to follow Coot's mix. Then I thought about getting my soil tested and contacting the soil doctor for consulting. It's for more than just the soil, I thought it would be a good chance to learn. I've got a bunch of questions and like I said it's hard to find legit info. I know a lot of growers use him for help with getting their soil dialed in.
Happy to help!

You're pretty spot on with your thinking on compost teas though. Coots was, and still is the man. I learned a ton from reading the threads he posted in on other forums. That said, compost teas were super popular back in the day because not many cannabis growers were making their own compost/worm castings like they are today. They were buying compost from stores which, is subpar at best, and rarely fully decomposed. To kickstart things, they'd aerate it with air stones to increase the microbiology in the not fully decomposed compost to get more microbiology going.

But today, we stoners know about worm castings and compost piles, so compost teas have mostly become a thing of the past. This is especially true with the introduction of a product called "Grower's Recharge" that was introduced a few years back. It's pretty much various strains of dormant bacteria that become "active" once in contact with water. Instead of brewing compost teas, you add 1tsp of Recharge to a gallon of water, shake it up for a few seconds, and water it into your soil. Does the exact same thing as compost tea. In fact, I'd argue it's better than compost tea. Why? If compost tea is made to jumpstart the microbiology in a mediocre compost, then the diversity in said compost is also mediocre. Grower's Recharge will be more diverse than the majority of EWC/Compost you find on the market.

Coast of Maine and Bu's Compost make good products, and brewing those into a tea can make those compost products stretch further. It's not that teas are "bad", just that they are more of a bandaid solution. Rather than brewing teas religiously, you can fix your soil and get a quality source of compost, and never have to brew teas again. Even if one is in a small apartment, a worm bin won't take up much room, and will produce better compost than anything on the market.

Coot's mix is the "standard" for a reason, it is as amazing as it is simple. However, consider running the 40/40/20 ratio instead of the 33/33/33 ratio until you get good compost. Coots himself said the reason he can do 33/33/33 is because "you don't have my worm castings", his words. Since most growers don't have the same quality EWC/compost that Coots does, they'll find more success using 40% peat/40% aeration/20% compost instead of 33/33/33.

Coot's worm castings are light, fluffy, and filled with nutrition. Store bought compost/EWC are devoid of nutrition, clumpy, and dense. This will cause problems within 6-12 months if attempting to do a no-till style grow.

My biggest piece of advice would be to check your water source, and look up your municipal water district's water report online if you're using tap water. More often than not, a grower's water supply will interfere with things in their soil, specifically Calcium. Many sources of tap water are full of Calcium, so loading up your soil with Crab Meal, Gypsum, and OSF/Dolomite Lime is bound to cause issues. You'll want to look for something on the report that says something along the lines of "water as hardness" or "source of hardness" or something along those lines. It'll tell you if your water has Calcium Carbonate (Lime) in it or not.

Biggest issue with new living soil growers is using tap water that has Calcium Carbonate in it, causing excessively alkaline pH levels, and ruining many a grow. If your water source has Calcium Carbonate in it, and has a pH of 7.5 or higher, consider cutting Coot's recommended dose of Oyster Shell Flour/Dolomite Lime in half, if not omitting it outright.

Other than that, you're spot on. Start with Coot's recipe as a base, keep observing and taking notes as you grow, and add or remove things as needed for your particular grow.

Coots is amazing and is still very much the man. That said? He grows in Oregon and cultivates his own worm castings that are of the highest quality. Even if you get EWC/compost as good as Coot's is, you still don't live/grow where he does. You'll have your own unique and individual environmental factors that will help and/or hurt your grow because you're in a different environment/area.

Sorry for the book. Hope it helped, and feel free to ask any questions you may have and I'll answer them to the best of my ability once I see them.

All the best.
 

ClaytonNewbilFontaine

Well-Known Member
Happy to help!

You're pretty spot on with your thinking on compost teas though. Coots was, and still is the man. I learned a ton from reading the threads he posted in on other forums. That said, compost teas were super popular back in the day because not many cannabis growers were making their own compost/worm castings like they are today. They were buying compost from stores which, is subpar at best, and rarely fully decomposed. To kickstart things, they'd aerate it with air stones to increase the microbiology in the not fully decomposed compost to get more microbiology going.

But today, we stoners know about worm castings and compost piles, so compost teas have mostly become a thing of the past. This is especially true with the introduction of a product called "Grower's Recharge" that was introduced a few years back. It's pretty much various strains of dormant bacteria that become "active" once in contact with water. Instead of brewing compost teas, you add 1tsp of Recharge to a gallon of water, shake it up for a few seconds, and water it into your soil. Does the exact same thing as compost tea. In fact, I'd argue it's better than compost tea. Why? If compost tea is made to jumpstart the microbiology in a mediocre compost, then the diversity in said compost is also mediocre. Grower's Recharge will be more diverse than the majority of EWC/Compost you find on the market.

Coast of Maine and Bu's Compost make good products, and brewing those into a tea can make those compost products stretch further. It's not that teas are "bad", just that they are more of a bandaid solution. Rather than brewing teas religiously, you can fix your soil and get a quality source of compost, and never have to brew teas again. Even if one is in a small apartment, a worm bin won't take up much room, and will produce better compost than anything on the market.

Coot's mix is the "standard" for a reason, it is as amazing as it is simple. However, consider running the 40/40/20 ratio instead of the 33/33/33 ratio until you get good compost. Coots himself said the reason he can do 33/33/33 is because "you don't have my worm castings", his words. Since most growers don't have the same quality EWC/compost that Coots does, they'll find more success using 40% peat/40% aeration/20% compost instead of 33/33/33.

Coot's worm castings are light, fluffy, and filled with nutrition. Store bought compost/EWC are devoid of nutrition, clumpy, and dense. This will cause problems within 6-12 months if attempting to do a no-till style grow.

My biggest piece of advice would be to check your water source, and look up your municipal water district's water report online if you're using tap water. More often than not, a grower's water supply will interfere with things in their soil, specifically Calcium. Many sources of tap water are full of Calcium, so loading up your soil with Crab Meal, Gypsum, and OSF/Dolomite Lime is bound to cause issues. You'll want to look for something on the report that says something along the lines of "water as hardness" or "source of hardness" or something along those lines. It'll tell you if your water has Calcium Carbonate (Lime) in it or not.

Biggest issue with new living soil growers is using tap water that has Calcium Carbonate in it, causing excessively alkaline pH levels, and ruining many a grow. If your water source has Calcium Carbonate in it, and has a pH of 7.5 or higher, consider cutting Coot's recommended dose of Oyster Shell Flour/Dolomite Lime in half, if not omitting it outright.

Other than that, you're spot on. Start with Coot's recipe as a base, keep observing and taking notes as you grow, and add or remove things as needed for your particular grow.

Coots is amazing and is still very much the man. That said? He grows in Oregon and cultivates his own worm castings that are of the highest quality. Even if you get EWC/compost as good as Coot's is, you still don't live/grow where he does. You'll have your own unique and individual environmental factors that will help and/or hurt your grow because you're in a different environment/area.

Sorry for the book. Hope it helped, and feel free to ask any questions you may have and I'll answer them to the best of my ability once I see them.

All the best.
No way bro, that was again very helpful to read. A lot of stuff in there that you said.

I've heard a podcast with Coot's where he said exactly that about his mix. It works bc of "his" EWC. That's really why I figured I'd get the soil tested.

What i really got excited about was the water test you mentioned. I get my water from a local spring. I was beginning to have concerns about its hardness so I sent it to Logan's lab for an analysis. It is pretty damn hard. The thing is I don't really know what I'm looking at. Kis organics has a water quality blog with a sample test from Logan's that I was able to compare to. But nothing is way off. I posted it to a couple forums and asked for people advice. I got some help, but again mostly everyone told me nothing major was out of whack. If you're curious I'll show it to you. I'd love to know what you think.

My last grow went badly right after switching to flower. I ended up correcting it some and harvesting some great herb though. I'm growing in 5 gallon pots, using Fox farm soil and nutes. I've been working on figuring it out for a month. The best piece of info I had is it started happening on the last grow when I started using just that spring water. Previously I was mixing it 50/50 with bottled spring water. After I started using it straight, I got issues. So i tested it. The way I figure is I got salt build up bc I never once flushed and I wasn't watering to run off. I've got one more grow like this before the living soil.

The info about Recharge was great. I think that's what I'll do.

I joined icmag just to find Coot's posts but kinda forgot about that. I'll have to go back and look. I started worm bins bc of him and I feed them kelp, alfalfa and malted barley. Plus my kitchen scraps. I just redid a bin yesterday bc I had added too much compost to it and it would've been years before the worms castings were able to over take all the fucking compost I added to that bin. So i took the worms out and basically added them to a bin of bedding and food. They were trying to get out last night. I actually have to go check them right now. I left a light on them all night. Gonna go see if it helped.

Bender is the. I have a tattoo of space on my back and if I ever did get it finished I was going to get bender floating through, talking to god. Futurama is one of my all time favorite shows. I used to ask people if they liked Futurama or family guy more. I won't say what conclusions I came to if they answered family guy.

Thanks again for the help
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
No way bro, that was again very helpful to read. A lot of stuff in there that you said.

I've heard a podcast with Coot's where he said exactly that about his mix. It works bc of "his" EWC. That's really why I figured I'd get the soil tested.

What i really got excited about was the water test you mentioned. I get my water from a local spring. I was beginning to have concerns about its hardness so I sent it to Logan's lab for an analysis. It is pretty damn hard. The thing is I don't really know what I'm looking at. Kis organics has a water quality blog with a sample test from Logan's that I was able to compare to. But nothing is way off. I posted it to a couple forums and asked for people advice. I got some help, but again mostly everyone told me nothing major was out of whack. If you're curious I'll show it to you. I'd love to know what you think.

My last grow went badly right after switching to flower. I ended up correcting it some and harvesting some great herb though. I'm growing in 5 gallon pots, using Fox farm soil and nutes. I've been working on figuring it out for a month. The best piece of info I had is it started happening on the last grow when I started using just that spring water. Previously I was mixing it 50/50 with bottled spring water. After I started using it straight, I got issues. So i tested it. The way I figure is I got salt build up bc I never once flushed and I wasn't watering to run off. I've got one more grow like this before the living soil.

The info about Recharge was great. I think that's what I'll do.

I joined icmag just to find Coot's posts but kinda forgot about that. I'll have to go back and look. I started worm bins bc of him and I feed them kelp, alfalfa and malted barley. Plus my kitchen scraps. I just redid a bin yesterday bc I had added too much compost to it and it would've been years before the worms castings were able to over take all the fucking compost I added to that bin. So i took the worms out and basically added them to a bin of bedding and food. They were trying to get out last night. I actually have to go check them right now. I left a light on them all night. Gonna go see if it helped.

Bender is the. I have a tattoo of space on my back and if I ever did get it finished I was going to get bender floating through, talking to god. Futurama is one of my all time favorite shows. I used to ask people if they liked Futurama or family guy more. I won't say what conclusions I came to if they answered family guy.

Thanks again for the help
Happy to do it. I enjoy writing (maybe a little too much as you'll see from below lol), and this is my way of paying it forward by sharing the information as freely as I received it. Answering questions not only helps the person asking them, but anyone that may be lurkers or from a Google search that need the help.

Exactly spot on about Coots and the EWC. Unfortunately, people read the Coot's thread, think they can dump the amendments and minerals into some peat moss and get the results he does. But 90% of Coot's results are from his EWC. In fact, I forget if it's a podcast or an interview I read, but he mostly doesn't use amendments in the soil anymore. Instead, he puts the amendments into the worm bin, then has the worms eat it. The OSF specifically, because the grit really helps them thrive.

Compost/EWC can be a source of life, or a source of life and nutrition. Our goal should be to produce the latter. By doing this, we only need to occasionally top dress with the compost and nothing more.

Feel free to post your water report if you'd like, I'd be happy to chime in and I'm sure others will do the same. I do already have my suspicions though from it being a local spring source. Local spring/well water = hardness. This is because that water flows, and flowing water erodes rocks, eroding rocks equates to minerals in the water. This is why people use mineral/spring water as a marketing gimmick for including electrolytes (K, Ca, Mg, etc.)

Anyway, spring/well water almost always equates to hardness in some form of Calcium Carbonate. The result is that your water source is practically liquid dolomite lime. The limestone/source of Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) erodes into your water source. The problem is, it stays in your water. This is why your faucets, hoses, and so forth get that "scaling" on it. That scaling is all the CaCO3 residue that gets left on your faucets. Except instead of it being your faucets, it's inside of your soil now. Keep in mind that CaCO3 is technically a "salt". Salt build up in soil is not a hydro/synthetic exclusive problem.

So, what's happening is every time you water, you are watering with dolomite infused water (7.5-8.0 pH). Furthermore, once your water in the medium evaporates/gets absorbed by the roots, the CaCO3 is left behind in your soil. The CaCO3 does not evaporate. It can be absorbed by the plants, but I'll get into why that doesn't happen later. This causes a twofold problem. Not only are you watering with alkaline water, but creating a salt buildup of CaCO3 on top of it.



Do you use fabric pots, and if so, do any of them look like this now?

20211030_102546(1).jpg

or this?

20211030_102621(1).jpg

or this?

20211030_102632.jpg

Same exact scaling as you get on your faucets.

I can already tell you what happened to you after you triggered flower. Right after the flower stretch, you got loads of phantom deficiencies, mostly Ca, Mg, and K (the electrolytes again, more on that later), but also P. So, you top dressed or possibly made a tea, and that still didn't solve the problem. You made it to harvest, and the smoke was great overall, but your yields were mediocre. I've been there, and spent over a year dealing with that bullshit until I figured out my problem was my water.

This is because flower uses different nutrients than veg does, as we all know. I bring that up because we don't often see phantom deficiencies of things like K and P in veg. Once flower gets triggered though, the problems arise for three reasons.

1) Because now your plant actually needs P and K more than it did in veg. And,

2) Because the plant is larger in flower than it was in veg, resulting in larger nutrient uptake. And

3) The CaCO3 residue from all of your watering in seedling/veg stages have resulted in a "salt" build up of CaCO3, resulting in an "overlimed" and alkaline soil with a constant pH of 7.5-8.0 all throughout flower. Those "phantom deficiencies" actually being lockout from the CaCO3 buildup as discussed earlier.

How do you know 100% if your water has CaCO3 in it and is your problem?

Thankfully, there is an extremely simple test that only requires a few cups, those pH drops from General Hydroponics, and a few days of time. There are 2 parts to this test.

1) Fill a glass cup with water from your water source. Drop the pH drops into said cup until it shows the expected 7.5-8.0 pH result. Now, drop a bunch of lemon juice, vinegar, pH down, or anything acidic until the color corresponds to 3.5-4.0 pH, typically red. Wait 24-48 hours. If the color turns back to dark green for 7.5-8.0 pH, your water has CaCO3 in it.

2) Next, we'll confirm that it's having a negative impact on your soil. Grab some RO water from a water machine in front of a store, or get some distilled water. Grab some of your soil, and let it soak in the distilled/RO water for 48 hours. Strain the water, then use the pH drops, observe the color and pH. Wait another 24 hours and check the color once more. If it even changes to the dark green, your soil has a CaCO3 salt build up.

How to solve the problem?

There's the easy way, and the hard way. The hard way is getting an RO system, or filling up jugs of water from the water machines.

The easy way is like with anything else, we find a way to work with it instead of against it. We do this simply by omitting dolomite lime/OSF/etc from our soil, as well as cutting any other sources of Ca (Crab Meal, Gypsum, etc) from our soils. Why? Well, the water has CaCO3 in it, so let's use it to our advantage instead of working against it! The water will not only keep the peat moss the perfect pH just like lime does, but will also be a source of Ca and other minerals for the plant to absorb!

Why doesn't this result in a salt build up? Because the plants can absorb it this way! The reason your plants can't absorb the Ca from your water is because there's already Ca in your soil from the recommended Crab Meals, OSF, Gypsum, and so forth. By omitting these sources of Ca from our soil recipes entirely, there is now no excess Ca in the soil, nor any excess CaCO3 salt buildup, keeping in mind dolomite lime is literally a "salt" by definition.

You'll also need to source some Langbeinite, for multiple reasons. Langbeinite's chemical composition is "Mg2K2(SO4)3"

SO4 = Sulfate, which is directly responsible for breaking apart salts in a soil. People recommend using Elemental Sulfur to break down salts and lower pH, but the problem with this is that we need to wait for months on specific microbes to break down the Elemental Sulfur (S) into SO4. Rather than waiting months on Elemental S to become SO4, simply use Langbeinite, which has SO4 in it already. Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate/CaSO4) can technically be used to break apart the CaCO3 salt build up via the SO4 in the Gypsum, but there is the risk of excess Ca in the soil as a result of this.

(Continued below)
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
Langbeinite is the best thing to use, doesn't have Ca in it, and is a great source of Mg and K. Don't be offput by the 0-0-22 NPK of Langbeinite, use it in small doses because a little goes a long way. Not to mention, the plants will make full use of all that K.

It gets even simpler if you're growing outdoors. Simply plant the plants directly in the ground instead of in a pot. The CaCO3 infused water will flow below the root zone and, as a result, the CaCO3 salt build up will be outside of your root zone and will not screw with your plants as a result.

Why did I mention the electrolytes earlier? Because Ca, Mg, P, and K all have a direct relationship with one another in terms of absorption. When one is in excess, the others are locked out. Excess K locks out Ca, Mg and P. Excess Ca locks out Mg, K, and P. And so on.



Electrolytes are minerals that carry an electrical charge and they play a direct role in the Cation Exchange Capacity of our soils. My understanding of Chemistry is very basic, but it's enough to be able to understand what's going on within the soil.

To truly take one's knowledge and understanding of living soil to the next level, studying Chemistry and Organic Chemistry is absolutely game changing and will teach you more than any of these stoner science books on the market (looking at you, Rev!).

And don't feel bad about the worm bins. Those take a good deal of troubleshooting for sure. Put your scraps on one half of the bin, and leave the other half of the bin nothing but bedding. Why? The scraps/amendments are mixing with the bedding and are decomposing as a result. Composting get hot, up to 150F in fact. That's likely why your worms are running away. Keeping the scraps/amendments to one side of the worm bin will prevent this because it gives the worms somewhere safe to be until the scraps fully decompose.

You can also put your scraps in a separate bucket and cover it with peat moss, turning/shaking it daily until the composting temps have cooled down, then put it in your worm bin. Worms don't actually "eat" the scraps, they eat the microbes on the scraps.

"Worms eat living organisms such as nematodes, protozoans, rotifers, bacteria, fungi in soil." - Source

So feed them the scraps after they've decomposed. The worms are likely running away because the scraps are decomposing in the bin, resulting in extremely hot temps. Be sure to cover the compost with loads of OSF. The OSF is the perfect grit for worms. Worms, like chickens and other animals, don't actually "eat" and "chew" food, they swallow things whole with a source of "grit" and the gizzard processes the food for them.

All the best.
 

Actinolite

Member
Dang kratos that's as thorough and detailed as one could hope for. The one thing I would add (sorry I'm not as good of a writer) is to be mindful when working with hard water of the amount of pH adjustment you're doing.
You'll find you have to add a lot of pH down to hard water, and the pH adjusters people typically use are Phosphoric Acid based (often with a bit of citric acid mixed in). Every ml you add is adding some % of Phosphorous to your nutrient mix, which can lead to nutrient imbalances down the road. This can result in unexpected results, like actually locking out Ca & Mg uptake if you go overboard on the Phosphorous. You can avoid this by using Sulfuric Acid based pH down (which, as you might guess, results in adding Sulfur to your nutrients), or using Nitric acid in (this results in adding Nitrogen to your mix though, so typically people do this mainly in Veg), but keep in mind Nitric acid is significantly more dangerous to handle than Phosphoric acid based pH down.
The added Phosphorous isn't something you need to worry a ton about unless you're using *a lot* of pH down, but it is something to keep in mind.

Also worth noting that phosphorous acid will react a some with the CaCO3 in your water, knocking some of it out and becoming insoluble. I assume in Soil this eventually breaks down again and becomes usable to your plants, but in hydro situations the resulting compounds aren't typically usable.

At least this is my understanding of the chemistry, I could be entirely wrong but that's just what I've gathered from an excessive amount of reading
 

ClaytonNewbilFontaine

Well-Known Member
Langbeinite is the best thing to use, doesn't have Ca in it, and is a great source of Mg and K. Don't be offput by the 0-0-22 NPK of Langbeinite, use it in small doses because a little goes a long way. Not to mention, the plants will make full use of all that K.

It gets even simpler if you're growing outdoors. Simply plant the plants directly in the ground instead of in a pot. The CaCO3 infused water will flow below the root zone and, as a result, the CaCO3 salt build up will be outside of your root zone and will not screw with your plants as a result.

Why did I mention the electrolytes earlier? Because Ca, Mg, P, and K all have a direct relationship with one another in terms of absorption. When one is in excess, the others are locked out. Excess K locks out Ca, Mg and P. Excess Ca locks out Mg, K, and P. And so on.



Electrolytes are minerals that carry an electrical charge and they play a direct role in the Cation Exchange Capacity of our soils. My understanding of Chemistry is very basic, but it's enough to be able to understand what's going on within the soil.

To truly take one's knowledge and understanding of living soil to the next level, studying Chemistry and Organic Chemistry is absolutely game changing and will teach you more than any of these stoner science books on the market (looking at you, Rev!).

And don't feel bad about the worm bins. Those take a good deal of troubleshooting for sure. Put your scraps on one half of the bin, and leave the other half of the bin nothing but bedding. Why? The scraps/amendments are mixing with the bedding and are decomposing as a result. Composting get hot, up to 150F in fact. That's likely why your worms are running away. Keeping the scraps/amendments to one side of the worm bin will prevent this because it gives the worms somewhere safe to be until the scraps fully decompose.

You can also put your scraps in a separate bucket and cover it with peat moss, turning/shaking it daily until the composting temps have cooled down, then put it in your worm bin. Worms don't actually "eat" the scraps, they eat the microbes on the scraps.

"Worms eat living organisms such as nematodes, protozoans, rotifers, bacteria, fungi in soil." - Source

So feed them the scraps after they've decomposed. The worms are likely running away because the scraps are decomposing in the bin, resulting in extremely hot temps. Be sure to cover the compost with loads of OSF. The OSF is the perfect grit for worms. Worms, like chickens and other animals, don't actually "eat" and "chew" food, they swallow things whole with a source of "grit" and the gizzard processes the food for them.

All the best.
Well bro I love reading! I got get going to work but I'll have this to look forward to reading later. Everything else you've shared has been very helpful, so I've got some pretty high expectations, lol.
 

ClaytonNewbilFontaine

Well-Known Member
Happy to do it. I enjoy writing (maybe a little too much as you'll see from below lol), and this is my way of paying it forward by sharing the information as freely as I received it. Answering questions not only helps the person asking them, but anyone that may be lurkers or from a Google search that need the help.

Exactly spot on about Coots and the EWC. Unfortunately, people read the Coot's thread, think they can dump the amendments and minerals into some peat moss and get the results he does. But 90% of Coot's results are from his EWC. In fact, I forget if it's a podcast or an interview I read, but he mostly doesn't use amendments in the soil anymore. Instead, he puts the amendments into the worm bin, then has the worms eat it. The OSF specifically, because the grit really helps them thrive.

Compost/EWC can be a source of life, or a source of life and nutrition. Our goal should be to produce the latter. By doing this, we only need to occasionally top dress with the compost and nothing more.

Feel free to post your water report if you'd like, I'd be happy to chime in and I'm sure others will do the same. I do already have my suspicions though from it being a local spring source. Local spring/well water = hardness. This is because that water flows, and flowing water erodes rocks, eroding rocks equates to minerals in the water. This is why people use mineral/spring water as a marketing gimmick for including electrolytes (K, Ca, Mg, etc.)

Anyway, spring/well water almost always equates to hardness in some form of Calcium Carbonate. The result is that your water source is practically liquid dolomite lime. The limestone/source of Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) erodes into your water source. The problem is, it stays in your water. This is why your faucets, hoses, and so forth get that "scaling" on it. That scaling is all the CaCO3 residue that gets left on your faucets. Except instead of it being your faucets, it's inside of your soil now. Keep in mind that CaCO3 is technically a "salt". Salt build up in soil is not a hydro/synthetic exclusive problem.

So, what's happening is every time you water, you are watering with dolomite infused water (7.5-8.0 pH). Furthermore, once your water in the medium evaporates/gets absorbed by the roots, the CaCO3 is left behind in your soil. The CaCO3 does not evaporate. It can be absorbed by the plants, but I'll get into why that doesn't happen later. This causes a twofold problem. Not only are you watering with alkaline water, but creating a salt buildup of CaCO3 on top of it.



Do you use fabric pots, and if so, do any of them look like this now?

View attachment 5251867

or this?

View attachment 5251868

or this?

View attachment 5251869

Same exact scaling as you get on your faucets.

I can already tell you what happened to you after you triggered flower. Right after the flower stretch, you got loads of phantom deficiencies, mostly Ca, Mg, and K (the electrolytes again, more on that later), but also P. So, you top dressed or possibly made a tea, and that still didn't solve the problem. You made it to harvest, and the smoke was great overall, but your yields were mediocre. I've been there, and spent over a year dealing with that bullshit until I figured out my problem was my water.

This is because flower uses different nutrients than veg does, as we all know. I bring that up because we don't often see phantom deficiencies of things like K and P in veg. Once flower gets triggered though, the problems arise for three reasons.

1) Because now your plant actually needs P and K more than it did in veg. And,

2) Because the plant is larger in flower than it was in veg, resulting in larger nutrient uptake. And

3) The CaCO3 residue from all of your watering in seedling/veg stages have resulted in a "salt" build up of CaCO3, resulting in an "overlimed" and alkaline soil with a constant pH of 7.5-8.0 all throughout flower. Those "phantom deficiencies" actually being lockout from the CaCO3 buildup as discussed earlier.

How do you know 100% if your water has CaCO3 in it and is your problem?

Thankfully, there is an extremely simple test that only requires a few cups, those pH drops from General Hydroponics, and a few days of time. There are 2 parts to this test.

1) Fill a glass cup with water from your water source. Drop the pH drops into said cup until it shows the expected 7.5-8.0 pH result. Now, drop a bunch of lemon juice, vinegar, pH down, or anything acidic until the color corresponds to 3.5-4.0 pH, typically red. Wait 24-48 hours. If the color turns back to dark green for 7.5-8.0 pH, your water has CaCO3 in it.

2) Next, we'll confirm that it's having a negative impact on your soil. Grab some RO water from a water machine in front of a store, or get some distilled water. Grab some of your soil, and let it soak in the distilled/RO water for 48 hours. Strain the water, then use the pH drops, observe the color and pH. Wait another 24 hours and check the color once more. If it even changes to the dark green, your soil has a CaCO3 salt build up.

How to solve the problem?

There's the easy way, and the hard way. The hard way is getting an RO system, or filling up jugs of water from the water machines.

The easy way is like with anything else, we find a way to work with it instead of against it. We do this simply by omitting dolomite lime/OSF/etc from our soil, as well as cutting any other sources of Ca (Crab Meal, Gypsum, etc) from our soils. Why? Well, the water has CaCO3 in it, so let's use it to our advantage instead of working against it! The water will not only keep the peat moss the perfect pH just like lime does, but will also be a source of Ca and other minerals for the plant to absorb!

Why doesn't this result in a salt build up? Because the plants can absorb it this way! The reason your plants can't absorb the Ca from your water is because there's already Ca in your soil from the recommended Crab Meals, OSF, Gypsum, and so forth. By omitting these sources of Ca from our soil recipes entirely, there is now no excess Ca in the soil, nor any excess CaCO3 salt buildup, keeping in mind dolomite lime is literally a "salt" by definition.

You'll also need to source some Langbeinite, for multiple reasons. Langbeinite's chemical composition is "Mg2K2(SO4)3"

SO4 = Sulfate, which is directly responsible for breaking apart salts in a soil. People recommend using Elemental Sulfur to break down salts and lower pH, but the problem with this is that we need to wait for months on specific microbes to break down the Elemental Sulfur (S) into SO4. Rather than waiting months on Elemental S to become SO4, simply use Langbeinite, which has SO4 in it already. Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate/CaSO4) can technically be used to break apart the CaCO3 salt build up via the SO4 in the Gypsum, but there is the risk of excess Ca in the soil as a result of this.

(Continued below)
I couldn't help myself, I had a little time to read. I've only read through the water stuff but almost everything single thing you've inferred was correct. Except the water doesn't come from my faucet. I go once a month to fill up buckets, it's close by, but we still have city water at the faucet. And the other thing is my pots look worse than that.
20220708_110533.jpg

I'm also not yet growing in living soil. I started with fox farm soil and nutrients and followed their schedule. Except the flushing part and some of the other nutrients the make. It didn't take me too long to realize it had to do with the water bc it was the only thing I had changed. I started with bottled spring water in my first grow that was like 8ppm. Then I started mixing it with that spring water which was around 130ppm. That was fine. But in flower in my second grow when I started using just the local spring water, I got issues exactly like you described. Then on this last grow, my third grow, i used that spring water straight the whole time. They did fine through veg which was 8 weeks long bc of spacing issues. But 1.5 weeks into flower stuff started happening. I tried a few things to fix it but eventually remembered the water. So i got a water analysis done. As much to learn from as to find out about the water. I was pretty lost as to what I was looking at when i got it.
Kis organics has a sample report. Did I say all this already? Here's the report
Screenshot_20221222_185824.jpg

That's all i had time to read. I'm very much looking forward to reading the rest of this later tonight. Thanks again.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
Dang kratos that's as thorough and detailed as one could hope for. The one thing I would add (sorry I'm not as good of a writer) is to be mindful when working with hard water of the amount of pH adjustment you're doing.
You'll find you have to add a lot of pH down to hard water, and the pH adjusters people typically use are Phosphoric Acid based (often with a bit of citric acid mixed in). Every ml you add is adding some % of Phosphorous to your nutrient mix, which can lead to nutrient imbalances down the road. This can result in unexpected results, like actually locking out Ca & Mg uptake if you go overboard on the Phosphorous. You can avoid this by using Sulfuric Acid based pH down (which, as you might guess, results in adding Sulfur to your nutrients), or using Nitric acid in (this results in adding Nitrogen to your mix though, so typically people do this mainly in Veg), but keep in mind Nitric acid is significantly more dangerous to handle than Phosphoric acid based pH down.
The added Phosphorous isn't something you need to worry a ton about unless you're using *a lot* of pH down, but it is something to keep in mind.

Also worth noting that phosphorous acid will react a some with the CaCO3 in your water, knocking some of it out and becoming insoluble. I assume in Soil this eventually breaks down again and becomes usable to your plants, but in hydro situations the resulting compounds aren't typically usable.

At least this is my understanding of the chemistry, I could be entirely wrong but that's just what I've gathered from an excessive amount of reading
Sounds like you're into Chemistry and more well versed with it than I am? Was hoping someone like you with a better Chem knowledge would chime in, because my understanding and knowledge of it is basic, at best.

"be mindful when working with hard water of the amount of pH adjustment you're doing."
Cannot agree enough. I didn't post many pH adjusting methods in my wall of text because, like you said, it could potentially cause more harm than good. Furthermore, it is much simpler to work with the hard water rather than against it. Use it to our advantage! It's a free pH buffer, and free Calcium and other minerals/nutrients.

I know plenty of people that use Citric Acid as a solution as well, and that's awesome. I just prefer to find a way to work with something, rather than against it. Saves me money and time. If I can find a way to not have to pull out my wallet, I'm going that route for sure!
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
I couldn't help myself, I had a little time to read. I've only read through the water stuff but almost everything single thing you've inferred was correct. Except the water doesn't come from my faucet. I go once a month to fill up buckets, it's close by, but we still have city water at the faucet. And the other thing is my pots look worse than that.


I'm also not yet growing in living soil. I started with fox farm soil and nutrients and followed their schedule. Except the flushing part and some of the other nutrients the make. It didn't take me too long to realize it had to do with the water bc it was the only thing I had changed. I started with bottled spring water in my first grow that was like 8ppm. Then I started mixing it with that spring water which was around 130ppm. That was fine. But in flower in my second grow when I started using just the local spring water, I got issues exactly like you described. Then on this last grow, my third grow, i used that spring water straight the whole time. They did fine through veg which was 8 weeks long bc of spacing issues. But 1.5 weeks into flower stuff started happening. I tried a few things to fix it but eventually remembered the water. So i got a water analysis done. As much to learn from as to find out about the water. I was pretty lost as to what I was looking at when i got it.
Kis organics has a sample report. Did I say all this already? Here's the report


That's all i had time to read. I'm very much looking forward to reading the rest of this later tonight. Thanks again.
What's your city water look like? Anyway you can find a report of that and post it? Just block out the names to keep things anonymous, of course. It should be easy enough to find. Just do a Google search for "(insert city/town name) water report" and it should pop up on the first page.

Tap water typically isn't as bad as people make it out to be. It can have it's issues, sure, but nothing like hard water will cause. Look into using your tap water exclusively, or perhaps mixing your tap water with your spring water. Or, as I suggested above, you could continue to use your spring water exclusively and simply omit the Calcium input and liming from your future recipes.

Regardless, now that you know the issue is the water, you have a good place to start and can get the issue fixed! Do loads of pH tests on how the various types of water interact with your soils.

Prior to building your soil, soak some of the peat in water, then strain the water and apply your pH drops. If the results show the water is buffering the pH of the peat, you can simply use your spring water without having to "lime" the soil.

You can also do tests on your tap water, and your tap water mixed with your spring water. Observe the pH of both water solutions, and see how they interact with acids like vinegar and lemon juice. If the pH doesn't buffer back up to 7.0, then you'll have to use lime in your soil to keep things buffered.

My course of action personally, would be to confirm that your water is a buffering agent, then simply use your water as a liming agent instead of buying Dolomite lime. Less work and money spent, which is always a plus in my book.
 

Actinolite

Member
Cannot agree enough. I didn't post many pH adjusting methods in my wall of text because, like you said, it could potentially cause more harm than good. Furthermore, it is much simpler to work with the hard water rather than against it. Use it to our advantage! It's a free pH buffer, and free Calcium and other minerals/nutrients.
If you're gonna use hard water 100% you've gotta try and work with it. Its certainly not the best but not everyone can afford or deal with an RO system. Hard water isn't the end of the world, but definitely makes life challenging.
 

ClaytonNewbilFontaine

Well-Known Member
What's your city water look like? Anyway you can find a report of that and post it? Just block out the names to keep things anonymous, of course. It should be easy enough to find. Just do a Google search for "(insert city/town name) water report" and it should pop up on the first page.

Tap water typically isn't as bad as people make it out to be. It can have it's issues, sure, but nothing like hard water will cause. Look into using your tap water exclusively, or perhaps mixing your tap water with your spring water. Or, as I suggested above, you could continue to use your spring water exclusively and simply omit the Calcium input and liming from your future recipes.

Regardless, now that you know the issue is the water, you have a good place to start and can get the issue fixed! Do loads of pH tests on how the various types of water interact with your soils.

Prior to building your soil, soak some of the peat in water, then strain the water and apply your pH drops. If the results show the water is buffering the pH of the peat, you can simply use your spring water without having to "lime" the soil.

You can also do tests on your tap water, and your tap water mixed with your spring water. Observe the pH of both water solutions, and see how they interact with acids like vinegar and lemon juice. If the pH doesn't buffer back up to 7.0, then you'll have to use lime in your soil to keep things buffered.

My course of action personally, would be to confirm that your water is a buffering agent, then simply use your water as a liming agent instead of buying Dolomite lime. Less work and money spent, which is always a plus in my book.
What about rain water? I've recently gotten everything together to collect it
 

ClaytonNewbilFontaine

Well-Known Member
Dang kratos that's as thorough and detailed as one could hope for. The one thing I would add (sorry I'm not as good of a writer) is to be mindful when working with hard water of the amount of pH adjustment you're doing.
You'll find you have to add a lot of pH down to hard water, and the pH adjusters people typically use are Phosphoric Acid based (often with a bit of citric acid mixed in). Every ml you add is adding some % of Phosphorous to your nutrient mix, which can lead to nutrient imbalances down the road. This can result in unexpected results, like actually locking out Ca & Mg uptake if you go overboard on the Phosphorous. You can avoid this by using Sulfuric Acid based pH down (which, as you might guess, results in adding Sulfur to your nutrients), or using Nitric acid in (this results in adding Nitrogen to your mix though, so typically people do this mainly in Veg), but keep in mind Nitric acid is significantly more dangerous to handle than Phosphoric acid based pH down.
The added Phosphorous isn't something you need to worry a ton about unless you're using *a lot* of pH down, but it is something to keep in mind.

Also worth noting that phosphorous acid will react a some with the CaCO3 in your water, knocking some of it out and becoming insoluble. I assume in Soil this eventually breaks down again and becomes usable to your plants, but in hydro situations the resulting compounds aren't typically usable.

At least this is my understanding of the chemistry, I could be entirely wrong but that's just what I've gathered from an excessive amount of reading
I do have to add a lot of pH down to lower it. Much more than when I use bottled spring water. You guys have both been very informative. I'll have to read through this quite a few times. My understanding of science is pretty embarrassing. But I'm learning slowly. Things like what you posted help greatly. I'm still trying to process everything I just read. I just got home from work and read all this.
 

ClaytonNewbilFontaine

Well-Known Member
If you're gonna use hard water 100% you've gotta try and work with it. Its certainly not the best but not everyone can afford or deal with an RO system. Hard water isn't the end of the world, but definitely makes life challenging.
I don't have to use this water. I only grow 3 plants. I could buy spring water. When i did that the plants did fine. I've got the stuff together to start collecting rain water if that would be better. I don't really have the "know how" to deal with the changes I'd have to make to deal with the hard water. That might sound ridiculous and may be a simple thing, but at this time I don't understand enough. I really appreciate the info though. Because it does help
 

ClaytonNewbilFontaine

Well-Known Member
Langbeinite is the best thing to use, doesn't have Ca in it, and is a great source of Mg and K. Don't be offput by the 0-0-22 NPK of Langbeinite, use it in small doses because a little goes a long way. Not to mention, the plants will make full use of all that K.
I have some Langbeinite. I'll look for a report on the tap water. What did you think about the one for the spring water? I don't think I'll use it anymore. I may try tap or just buy bottled spring water. It's like $5 a week to grow 3 plants. I can afford that.
 

Actinolite

Member
I don't have to use this water. I only grow 3 plants. I could buy spring water. When i did that the plants did fine. I've got the stuff together to start collecting rain water if that would be better. I don't really have the "know how" to deal with the changes I'd have to make to deal with the hard water. That might sound ridiculous and may be a simple thing, but at this time I don't understand enough. I really appreciate the info though. Because it does help
It's not so much that hard water is more complicated, its just that you've gotta figure your own out, each source is a bit different in composition so you gotta just mess with your nutrients until you find what works.
Spring water or tap water would certainly be easier (though spring water is often basically just tap water as far as TDS goes, so honestly you may as well use tap). If you use rain water that's essentially RO water, it's great. I've seen a lot of people go that route, it's free and endless if you live somewhere with a lot of rain. The only thing to be cautious of is getting bugs in your water (most typically mosquito larvae) or algae growing in it. You can deal with that by treating the water or just making sure how you collect it is kept as clean as possible.
In the end, it's all just a big experiment until you find what works for you, and once you find what works, go with it. People have a lot of opinions on what's right and what's wrong but imo, what's right is what works for you.
 
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