Apache AT600 led vs 1000w HPS Blue Dream Grow

PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
Now it is my understanding that the 850nm heat wave can be beneficial for driving plants to transpire. One led company actually was telling me that best performance would be seen by incorporating a small amount of hps (150w) with led.
In an area were temps are cooler, could you see a scenario where hps outperformed led in transpiration and photosynthesis?
this is true, I have often contemplated dropping a naked vertical hps in my grows during winter ... But never did mostly because there are more efficient ways to generate heat than what is basically a filament bulb designed primarily for producing light.
 

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
Now it is my understanding that the 850nm heat wave can be beneficial for driving plants to transpire. One led company actually was telling me that best performance would be seen by incorporating a small amount of hps (150w) with led.
In an area were temps are cooler, could you see a scenario where hps outperformed led in transpiration and photosynthesis?
If you are going for yield over quality there may be something to this. But you should be able to accomplish the same thing for free by allowing a higher canopy temp during flowering rather than adding IR. There are consequences to get that higher yield though, it takes longer to finish, reduced bud density and the some volatile terpenes can evap off or oxidise. Some varieties do not finish clean with higher canopy temps, foxtailing and or combination of mature and immature calyxs. Some varieties may not be as frosty. Definitely something worth experimenting with.
 

OneHitDone

Well-Known Member
If you are going for yield over quality there may be something to this. But you should be able to accomplish the same thing for free by allowing a higher canopy temp during flowering rather than adding IR. There are consequences to get that higher yield though, it takes longer to finish, reduced bud density and the some volatile terpenes can evap off or oxidise. Some varieties do not finish clean with higher canopy temps, foxtailing and or combination of mature and immature calyxs. Some varieties may not be as frosty. Definitely something worth experimenting with.
But, does the sun not provide IR?
After all in the spirit of "natuaral" and "organic", are we not trying to mimic the sun as close as possible?
 

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
Since you're so confident in supra from his LED use..ask him about his hps yields.
Ya my HPS yields were abysmal, min .3 gpw, averaged .4 gpw, max .57 gpw. That was using 600W HPS bare, horizontal, cheap reflectors, 5 gal buckets organic soil, mid yielding varieties. And I admit, I was trying hard for several years. I mixed in some XTEs XPEs and immediately gpw jumped up and after phasing out the HPS for COB, min 1gpw, avg ~1.2 gpw, max 1.39 gpw.

So the way I see it COB doubled or tripled my yield and clearly from my HPS result I am not a high yield grower, so we will be seeing some very high numbers coming from high yield growers using COB.
 

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
But, does the sun not provide IR?
After all in the spirit of "natuaral" and "organic", are we not trying to mimic the sun as close as possible?
That is a good point but I am not sure plants differentiate between IR (radiant heat) and ambient canopy temp (convective/conductive heat). I suspect that spending any watts on radiant IR would be a double waste because we have to pay to remove that heat, but I am open to being proven wrong.

So I encourage growers to keep it simple and spend those resources in the photosynthetric range where we have high efficiency emitters. If you want to increase canopy temp you can adjust ventilation speed or intake air temp. One of LEDs strengths that I most appreciate is the ability to have high intensity in the canopy while maintaining lower canopy temps, although with COBs I still have to work at controlling canopy temps because the photons do raise bud temps even without IR.
 
Last edited:

OneHitDone

Well-Known Member
That is a good point but I am not sure plants differentiate between IR (radiant heat) and canopy temp (convective/conductive heat). I suspect that spending any watts on radiant IR would be a double waste because we have to pay to remove that heat, but I am open to being proven wrong.
I don't think anything is about proving right or wrong.
There seems to be more than one way of getting to the end result.
I am just glad so many here on this forum are willing to opening share the findings of their experiments so we can all work through different scenarios and find what is best for our needs :bigjoint:
 

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
I don't think anything is about proving right or wrong.
There seems to be more than one way of getting to the end result.
I am just glad so many here on this forum are willing to opening share the findings of their experiments so we can all work through different scenarios and find what is best for our needs :bigjoint:
Right, I just need to qualify that is just my opinion at this point of experimentation and subject to change. Very interested to hear others opinions and experiences on the matter.
 

OneHitDone

Well-Known Member
Right, I just need to qualify that is just my opinion at this point of experimentation and subject to change. Very interested to hear others opinions and experiences on the matter.
That would be a great experiment for a university or a grower with the resources and space to conduct.
All I know is where I live temps rarely break 70 degrees yet even on an overcast day when you put your arm out you immediately feel the heat and the burn. There is something to the IR and UV spectrums that is different than just raising canopy temps.
And to further add to it - how about a light source that varied by time of day? For instance run Metal Halide till what would be mid day and then have HPS come on and shut down the halide to simulate afternoon?
 

vitamin_green_inc

Well-Known Member
That would be a great experiment for a university or a grower with the resources and space to conduct.
All I know is where I live temps rarely break 70 degrees yet even on an overcast day when you put your arm out you immediately feel the heat and the burn. There is something to the IR and UV spectrums that is different than just raising canopy temps.
And to further add to it - how about a light source that varied by time of day? For instance run Metal Halide till what would be mid day and then have HPS come on and shut down the halide to simulate afternoon?
Hmm, but you are also forgetting with that heat often comes high humidity...high humidity and higher temps makes for a better growing plant itself, and seeking to keep that veg enviroment for the first couple of weeks is good, but with higher humidity comes less quality as its not just the light, trichomes protect against, but also predators, and more importantly to my point, dry arid conditions. We seek to cultivate trichomes specifically as that's what gets you high, so that's why people add the Ir at the end and why they seek to get the humidity as low as possible
 

PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
Hmm, but you are also forgetting with that heat often comes high humidity...high humidity and higher temps makes for a better growing plant itself, and seeking to keep that veg enviroment for the first couple of weeks is good, but with higher humidity comes less quality as its not just the light, trichomes protect against, but also predators, and more importantly to my point, dry arid conditions. We seek to cultivate trichomes specifically as that's what gets you high, so that's why people add the Ir at the end and why they seek to get the humidity as low as possible
who adds IR at the end ? after initial stretch I add Far Red at 730nm, but not Infra red.
 
Last edited:

Rahz

Well-Known Member
My best so far has been 1.35 gpw in hydro. I've been growing hydro for several years now but have always played with organic additives, either sugar in the changeout to brew trich for several days, or other additives in an attempt to culture bennies along the same lines I've done in my mycological pursuits. Long story short, I was promoting a low level root rot.

I still have an interest in culturing trich, but growing a sterile culture and ensuring all the sugar has been consumed is a difficult proposition. Funny thing, in mycology trichoderma is the major contam and all efforts are to prevent it.

Currently I'm running the same strain and skipping the organics except for a weekly dose of ZHO directly from the packet to the rez and I'll be adding some Ersa Elixr the last couple weeks. Plants have exploded and roots couldn't be whiter. I'm confident I will beat my old record.

Strain is headband, mid yielding from what I've read. The original mom would be over a year old at this point so not sure how much that can affect potential yield. Flowering under 3000K Vero 29 version 1 (19 par watts per foot), exceptionally sticky.

Which brings up a proposition, that GPW be done using par watts. It would be a more accurate representation of yield to photon count. My 1.35g/w would be 3.1g/pw
 

captainmorgan

Well-Known Member
Supra brought up the point to me that GPW when used by most HPS guys, they didn't count the ballast so LED guys shouldn't count drivers or cooling fans.
 
Last edited:

testiclees

Well-Known Member
@vitamin_green_inc


"but with higher humidity comes less quality as its not just the light, trichomes protect against, but also predators, and more importantly to my point, dry arid conditions"

So many cannabis capitals have humid environments.

Humidity. Jamaica
Relative humidity (%): morning and afternoon annual averages
Place am. pm
Kingston8167
Morant Point85 79
Port Antonio87. 78
Cinchona Gardens86 85


AVERAGE HUMIDITY OVER THE YEAR
The mean monthly relative humidity in Mzuzu, Malawi.
 

vitamin_green_inc

Well-Known Member
@vitamin_green_inc


"but with higher humidity comes less quality as its not just the light, trichomes protect against, but also predators, and more importantly to my point, dry arid conditions"

So many cannabis capitals have humid environments.

Humidity. Jamaica
Relative humidity (%): morning and afternoon annual averages
Place am. pm
Kingston8167
Morant Point85 79
Port Antonio87. 78
Cinchona Gardens86 85


AVERAGE HUMIDITY OVER THE YEAR
The mean monthly relative humidity in Mzuzu, Malawi.
Indoors man, I'm talking indoors...or even narrow-leaf vs easy to get mold broad-leaf....believe me, I'm used to humidity, and no real winter....and again, indoor should always be potentially better than outdoor IMHO
 
Top