Arizona law about ethnic classes

dukeofbaja · May 17, 2010

That article, written by Republican Charlie Norwood, a staunch immigration opponent from Georgia, has been rebutted point by point. Here is a little about the author of said article...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Norwood#Congressional_career
Norwood was a staunch supporter of tight immigration control, and "called for putting nearly 40,000 troops on the U.S.-Mexico border. He co-wrote a provision to the recent Deficit Reduction Act that bars illegal aliens from getting Medicaid."[2]

The short version of the rebuttal is here:
NCLR responded to Norwood's conditions apology in a point-by-point press release defending its policies, which it claims have never been racially or ethnically exclusionary, never supported and does not endorse the notion of a “Reconquista” or “Aztlán,” has never used, and unequivocally rejects, the motto “Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada", has supported numerous measures to ensure that all Americans have the freedom to choose where to live, and stated that its programs are already covered by civil rights laws administered by independent agencies at the federal, state, and local level.[12] It also disputes the charge that it supports illegal immigration, constantly reiterating its support for effective and reasonable border security and immigration-law enforcement. In a speech in San Diego, NCLR CEO Janet Murguía stated: "First, as a sovereign nation, the United States has the right to determine who comes and who stays. . . [It also] has a right to consider enforcement at a variety of levels, including border enforcement, interior enforcement, and workplace enforcement. . . We support enforcement...[because] as Americans, we recognize it's the right thing to do."[13]

The full text of which may be seen here: http://www.nclr.org/content/viewpoints/detail/42500/

Nice try...but I'm afraid La Raza is about as everyday and mainstream an advocacy group there is.

dukeofbaja · May 17, 2010

kendothegreenwizard said:
You play games instead of actual debate. How terribly sad that is. Again I pointed out that La Raza coupled with Brown Power and Brown seperatism is the post I made and yet you keeep working your way back to one aspect,"La Raza"
I will acquiesce to your disingenuous tactic of defelecting the argument from it's root.
Your wikipedia reference does nothing to demonstrate how La Raza works at street level and shows your lack of actual knowledge.
As I posted already, I grew up in San Jose Cali. Some of my Kajukenbo Martial Arts HOMEBOYS were with a group called the brown berets http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Berets
We would hang at La Raza park and i got a firsthand street level education of what La raza means to Chicanos. It aint about some Wiki article picked outta your whimsical game play. At street level or in the minds of those who use it as a battle cry it is about race superiority. Get a clue MR I know it all, you can't get all your knowledge from Wikipedia.
Go play your games with the kiddies at MTV.com I aint the one.

Why don't you show me how NCLR and brown power/separatism are related? Because they are not, it would make sense for me to argue about it. It would be similar to me rebutting the claim that my elbow is neon blue....false presupposition. So why don't you make a clear, detailed case showing me the EXACT relation between NCLR and brown power first, then accuse of me of dodging it or skirting it later.

As far as the rest of what you wrote, I don't intend to dignify such insults as you were making with any response. I will wager however, that my 10+ years in Phoenix, semesters of classes in HS and college for native speakers, several jobs in purely spanish speaking environments, and my frequent travels to El Paso to work in said environments have my finger closer to the pulse than whatever anecdotal experiences you may have had at one point hanging out with your friends in the park eating ice cream.

kendothegreenwizard · May 17, 2010

And you expect them to say anything different. WHat else is the LA Raza going to say," Yes we are racist and support the overthrow of America" You rely quite a lot on Wilipedia for your info , don't you!
I support militarizing our border as well as support not allowing ILLEGALS access to our medicaide.

dukeofbaja · May 17, 2010

kendothegreenwizard said:
^^^^ xlnt article fdd2blk.
So much for Dukeofbajas La Raza!
This is the La Raza at street level. Not the La Raza that comes from wikipedia articles that the Dukeofbaja tried to present ad hominem
This is what my post was elluding to in regards to La Raza, brown power and Brown seperatism.. This is what the AZ law is addressing. I can't wait to read the deflection that Duke will post to attempt to discredit the factual information contained in this article. He will probably pick one tiny portion and post ad nauseum infinitum without addressing the root of the article.

Do you even know what 'ad hominem' means?

an attempt to persuade which links the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise

How is my linking to a wikipedia article 'ad hominem'? You must think Wikipedia is out to get you, I suppose. HIDE!

kendothegreenwizard · May 17, 2010

dukeofbaja said:
Why don't you show me how NCLR and brown power/separatism are related? Because they are not, it would make sense for me to argue about it. It would be similar to me rebutting the claim that my elbow is neon blue....false presupposition. So why don't you make a clear, detailed case showing me the EXACT relation between NCLR and brown power first, then accuse of me of dodging it or skirting it later.

As far as the rest of what you wrote, I don't intend to dignify such insults as you were making with any response. I will wager however, that my 10+ years in Phoenix, semesters of classes in HS and college for native speakers, several jobs in purely spanish speaking environments, and my frequent travels to El Paso to work in said environments have my finger closer to the pulse than whatever anecdotal experiences you may have had at one point hanging out with your friends in the park eating ice cream.

Of course By all accounts in your mind you are superior in intellect and intuition than everyone you debate. Must be great to be you.

dukeofbaja · May 17, 2010

kendothegreenwizard said:
And you expect them to say anything different. WHat else is the LA Raza going to say," Yes we are racist and support the overthrow of America"

The KKK and neo-nazi groups have no problem expressing their racism and hatred, I thought you said they were so alike?

By the way, you'll notice I linked to NCLR's website as well (if you pay attention, which I am getting more and more doubts about as we go on here).

dukeofbaja · May 17, 2010

kendothegreenwizard said:
Of course By all accounts in your mind you are superior in intellect and intuition than everyone you debate. Must be great to be you.

When did I say that? Quote please.

medicineman · May 17, 2010

dukeofbaja said:
That article, written by Republican Charlie Norwood, a staunch immigration opponent from Georgia, has been rebutted point by point. Here is a little about the author of said article...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Norwood#Congressional_career
Norwood was a staunch supporter of tight immigration control, and "called for putting nearly 40,000 troops on the U.S.-Mexico border. He co-wrote a provision to the recent Deficit Reduction Act that bars illegal aliens from getting Medicaid."[2]

The short version of the rebuttal is here:
NCLR responded to Norwood's conditions apology in a point-by-point press release defending its policies, which it claims have never been racially or ethnically exclusionary, never supported and does not endorse the notion of a Reconquista or Aztlán, has never used, and unequivocally rejects, the motto Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada", has supported numerous measures to ensure that all Americans have the freedom to choose where to live, and stated that its programs are already covered by civil rights laws administered by independent agencies at the federal, state, and local level.[12] It also disputes the charge that it supports illegal immigration, constantly reiterating its support for effective and reasonable border security and immigration-law enforcement. In a speech in San Diego, NCLR CEO Janet Murguía stated: "First, as a sovereign nation, the United States has the right to determine who comes and who stays. . . [It also] has a right to consider enforcement at a variety of levels, including border enforcement, interior enforcement, and workplace enforcement. . . We support enforcement...[because] as Americans, we recognize it's the right thing to do."[13]

The full text of which may be seen here: http://www.nclr.org/content/viewpoints/detail/42500/

Nice try...but I'm afraid La Raza is about as everyday and mainstream an advocacy group there is.

I wonder, do you have any day to day interaction with the illegals? Here in my state, there are an overwhelming number of them. It feels like Mexico without the beaches, polite waiters, and generally polite people interacting with you. I find Mexico to ba a friendly place, (Turista sections), but the Mexicans here are not so friendly. There are a lot of pissed off mexicans as their jobs were the first to go in the downturn, gardners, pool cleaners, construction, most of the industry that supports illegals has taken a huge hit. People cannot afford the ammenities of having home workers, and there is no new housing construction, hence, the Mexicans that were layed off and cannot get unemployment or find new jobs, are either leaving and going back to Mexico, or finding other ways to make a living, crime comes to mind.

hanimmal · May 17, 2010

You guys do realize that the people your arguing against are the ones that thought that somehow Acorn was some evil company that had way more power and did way more stuff than they actually did right?

I mean compared to how nuts they went off on a non profit organization designed to help the poor with shit, or Obama's birth certificate, it is actually refreshing that they are only off by this much.

I love how people can tell instantly how stupid one group of people are, and pick out the insane things they spout (like some of the signs from recent Mexican rallies about getting stuff for free). But are completely blind to things when their 'side' does equally insane things.

You are for deporting immigrants because they lower wages of Americans (wrong, but not by much right),
But against Unions because they increase wages and cost our companies more money (exactly the same thing).

Against gay rights because it changes the definition of marriage (or something like this) essentially due to being a sin right?
But then oppose many moral laws (like pot laws) because they infringe on our enjoyment.

And my favorite, Ardently oppose the death penalty (because we should not kill people) but are for abortion rights. And vise versa. There are so many examples of these hypocritical things we do it is amazing.

And before anyone starts crying, I am not referring to any one person or multiple people here, just the general outline of whatever movement Glenn Beck is telling you to follow.

dukeofbaja · May 17, 2010

medicineman said:
I wonder, do you have any day to day interaction with the illegals?

I just spent the month of April ordering lunch everyday in Spanish because I had to. "tres colitas de pavo, con todo por favor". Co-workers were all purely Spanish speaking too, and driving home after a month of this, I was thinking and dreaming in Spanish. The only respite was the bartender at Billy Crew's Restaurant, but even he was bilingual.

Now, I don't know if my co workers were illegal, I would bet they are not. I do know they are great folk though. They work harder every day than I could fathom, it wore me out to keep up with them. The hospitality was amazing as well. That was not my experience when I worked with Spanish only crews in Arizona, but that is expected. Not every bean in the burrito is the exact same.

dukeofbaja · May 17, 2010

hanimmal said:
You guys do realize that the people your arguing against are the ones that thought that somehow Acorn was some evil company that had way more power and did way more stuff than they actually did right?

I mean compared to how nuts they went off on a non profit organization designed to help the poor with shit, or Obama's birth certificate, it is actually refreshing that they are only off by this much.

I love how people can tell instantly how stupid one group of people are, and pick out the insane things they spout (like some of the signs from recent Mexican rallies about getting stuff for free). But are completely blind to things when their 'side' does equally insane things.

You are for deporting immigrants because they lower wages of Americans (wrong, but not by much right),
But against Unions because they increase wages and cost our companies more money (exactly the same thing).

Against gay rights because it changes the definition of marriage (or something like this) essentially due to being a sin right?
But then oppose many moral laws (like pot laws) because they infringe on our enjoyment.

And my favorite, Ardently oppose the death penalty (because we should not kill people) but are for abortion rights. And vise versa. There are so many examples of these hypocritical things we do it is amazing.

And before anyone starts crying, I am not referring to any one person or multiple people here, just the general outline of whatever movement Glenn Beck is telling you to follow.

Nice post. +rep if I can.

stumps · May 17, 2010

I say good for Az. As for the slaves. All races have had slaves in the past and most still do. It kills me when a black man is bitching about how the white man put his people into slavery. I remind them the white man bought them. it was other black men that made them slaves. Take a look at how the black man is fairing in the US vs the black man in his native land. That same thing can be said for most all races in the US.

dukeofbaja · May 17, 2010

stumps said:
I say good for Az. As for the slaves. All races have had slaves in the past and most still do. It kills me when a black man is bitching about how the white man put his people into slavery. I remind them the white man bought them. it was other black men that made them slaves. Take a look at how the black man is fairing in the US vs the black man in his native land. That same thing can be said for most all races in the US.

Do you suppose the shoddy conditions in Africa have anything to do with ages of imperialism?

Do you believe that because 'all races had slaves' that makes it any less wrong? (Hey, everyone's doing it...why not?)

Do you believe a continuation of the attitude 'they have it better over here' should serve as an excuse to dismiss ongoing racism, discrimination, the achievement gap, socio economic inequalities, and the rest, since they have it 'so good'?

I would be curious to know where you stand on such questions.

Parker · May 17, 2010

hanimmal said:
You guys do realize that the people your arguing against are the ones that thought that somehow Acorn was some evil company that had way more power and did way more stuff than they actually did right?

I mean compared to how nuts they went off on a non profit organization designed to help the poor with shit, or Obama's birth certificate, it is actually refreshing that they are only off by this much.

I love how people can tell instantly how stupid one group of people are, and pick out the insane things they spout (like some of the signs from recent Mexican rallies about getting stuff for free). But are completely blind to things when their 'side' does equally insane things.

You are for deporting immigrants because they lower wages of Americans (wrong, but not by much right),
But against Unions because they increase wages and cost our companies more money (exactly the same thing).

I am against any artificial changes in the economy. We have seen from the past that it does not work and causes unintended consequences. When you have a boom, you have a bust.
People loved unions back in the day but now all one has to so is look at the costs associated with Unions in the auto business and the sentiment is anti union (unless you're in one). I think it's best to pay someone a fair wage. If their price is too high I'll look elsewhere, if it's too low for the worker he doesn't have to accept.

hanimmal said:
Against gay rights because it changes the definition of marriage (or something like this) essentially due to being a sin right?
But then oppose many moral laws (like pot laws) because they infringe on our enjoyment.

I don't get the reasons each individual has but denying rights to citizens is unconstitutional. Like you said you can't have it both ways. Leave it to the Churches to decide on marriage.

hanimmal said:
And my favorite, Ardently oppose the death penalty (because we should not kill people) but are for abortion rights. And vise versa. There are so many examples of these hypocritical things we do it is amazing.

And before anyone starts crying, I am not referring to any one person or multiple people here, just the general outline of whatever movement Glenn Beck is telling you to follow.

abortion/death penalty is a good one. I think the topic on when people think the babys life begins is a factor. As well as the health of the mother (mental and physical), factor into it also.

kendothegreenwizard · May 17, 2010

hanimmal said:
You guys do realize that the people your arguing against are the ones that thought that somehow Acorn was some evil company that had way more power and did way more stuff than they actually did right?

Agreed in regards to acorn

I mean compared to how nuts they went off on a non profit organization designed to help the poor with shit, or Obama's birth certificate, it is actually refreshing that they are only off by this much.

Agreed in reagrds to Obama's Birth certificate

I love how people can tell instantly how stupid one group of people are, and pick out the insane things they spout (like some of the signs from recent Mexican rallies about getting stuff for free). But are completely blind to things when their 'side' does equally insane things.

Agreed in regards to the media spin. Much the same as in regards to the tea parties representation as violent, ignorant and racist.
Much the same in regards to this law and AZ's law in regards to illegal immigration as racist.

You are for deporting immigrants because they lower wages of Americans (wrong, but not by much right),

I am All for deporting Illegals because they are here Illegally and do not deserve to be thrust ahead of others with Amnesty.

But against Unions because they increase wages and cost our companies more money (exactly the same thing).

Unions are a double edged sword. I agree that unions are part and parcel of why industry has departed for other shores in search of a realistic wage.

Against gay rights because it changes the definition of marriage (or something like this) essentially due to being a sin right?

I marched with and Met Harvey Milk in the 70's gay rights marches in San Francisco

But then oppose many moral laws (like pot laws) because they infringe on our enjoyment.

I oppose moral laws.

And my favorite, Ardently oppose the death penalty (because we should not kill people) but are for abortion rights. And vise versa. There are so many examples of these hypocritical things we do it is amazing.

I do not oppose the death penalty and yet believe in a womans right to do with her body as she chooses. Does that mean I do not object to late term abortions or abortion as a means of contraception, No it does not

And before anyone starts crying, I am not referring to any one person or multiple people here, just the general outline of whatever movement Glenn Beck is telling you to follow.

I detest Glenn Beck. I consider him to be mentally ill.

Look at that there is only one area that we disagree and that is immigration. I am generally left leaning in my views but do not allow that to sway me from bucking party rhetoric when I do not agree. I see the AZ law about ethnic studies as a step away from seperatist ideals. The law does not call for a ban on Ethnic courses, only deems that they cannot teach the overthrow of America or an agenda that promotes race division or superiority.

dukeofbaja · May 17, 2010

kendothegreenwizard said:
Look at that there is only one area that we disagree and that is immigration. I am generally left leaning in my views but do not allow that to sway me from bucking party rhetoric when I do not agree. I see the AZ law about ethnic studies as a step away from seperatist ideals. The law does not call for a ban on Ethnic courses, only deems that they cannot teach the overthrow of America or an agenda that promotes race division or superiority.

You forgot that this bill also prohibits teaching anything that 'may promote resentment towards another race or class of people'. Good luck teaching 99% of history without promoting resentment towards any race or class of people.

stumps · May 17, 2010

explain imperialism please.

I think slavery had a place in history and most likely will again. Over all I have no moral objection to slavery.

I think as long as there are races, you will have racism. Do I think it's right? No I don't. hum don't think thats what you are asking.

I guess a simple answer to your last is no. I do not. Thats not at all what I intenteded in my last post but see why it sounded that way.

dukeofbaja · May 17, 2010

stumps said:
Over all I have no moral objection to slavery.

Then come over and mow my lawn and cook my dinner. Also, harvest my BD. If you dn't manicure it to my liking, your back will be whipped bloody.

PS - Bring your family, I need to sell them to raise some capital for my new plantation.

stumps · May 17, 2010

dukeofbaja said:
Then come over and mow my lawn and cook my dinner. Also, harvest my BD. If you dn't manicure it to my liking, your back will be whipped bloody.

PS - Bring your family, I need to sell them to raise some capital for my new plantation.

lol..... first off you need the power to make me a slave. You don't. Or you need the money to pay someone that does have the power to inslave me. You don't.

dukeofbaja · May 17, 2010

stumps said:
lol..... first off you need the power to make me a slave. You don't. Or you need the money to pay someone that does have the power to inslave me. You don't.

How do you know that? How do you know I am not cozy with violent criminals who could abduct you and your family at night and transport you to a location where you would be kept as slaves with no chance of escape?

I don't, but it seems as though the only way one could have 'no moral objection to slavery' is if he himself is not held as a slave. So suppose you and/or your family were abducted and sold into slavery, would you still have no moral objection? Suppose your daughter was walking home from school and was abducted and sold into sex slavery, would you still have no moral objection?

Arizona law about ethnic classes

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