badly mistreated clones saved by vermicompost extract

calliandra · Apr 11, 2016

So! Time for an update!
I have continued my careless growing style and am now getting the bill for it LOL
Opened the closet this morning to find LOTS of yellowing leaves and even some with drying blotches on them. Here's one with a blotch:

Looks like I've done it again and given my plants too little soil to unfold in.
Also, I didn't cook the soil mix even for 1 day this time round, so the soil foodweb quality probably wasn't amazing to begin with :rolleyes:

In addition, I got the opportunity to look at the worm compost I had used to revitalize the girls and wasn't all too thrilled. While I definitely need to gain experience with handling samples and also in recognizing the microorganisms themselves, what I saw on this first exploration was, tons of bacteria (quite diverse, so that's ok), a few different kinds of nematodes (mostly bacterial feeding, and wow were they feeding!), quite a few amoebae, some flagellates, but also ciliates.
As for fungi, I may have broken the good hyphae by kneading up my wormcast samples - my compost is really gooey in consistency and kneading was the only way to get it mixed. So I saw lots of bits and pieces of beneficial fungi, but also a few strands of really skinny transparent ones (perceptually more than beneficials) - which tend to be bad guys and are indicative of an environment bordering on the anaerobic. And that from a plastic flow-through system that keeps leaning towards the anaerobic too...

So what I take from these observations is that the girls' recovery by extract probably was more due to the huge amounts of humic and fulvic acid in the vermicompost than the actual establishment of a rich beneficial microbial population that would be dense enough in the 11L of soil they have at their disposal to fully feed the plants throughout their lifecycle.

So here I am, surprisingly finding a use for the biobizz-nutes I thought I wouldn't EVER need after all :oops:

LOL

Here's how the girls look today, after I thinned out the leafage by taking out most everything that they were going to discard anyways:

I'll be feeding them light doses of the biobizz grow/bloom mix for the next few weeks.
I also do hope to get around to looking at the soil today too for an impression for what the microbial life is like in there.

This experience really is bringing home how making quality compost is probably the most crucial factor in a cultivation system that depends wholly on the soil foodweb (ok along with giving the plants enough root space haha!)... :mrgreen:

whitebb2727 · Apr 11, 2016

Looks good. I'm subbed to watch.

TheStickMan · Apr 11, 2016

calliandra said:
So! Time for an update!
I have continued my careless growing style and am now getting the bill for it LOL
Opened the closet this morning to find LOTS of yellowing leaves and even some with drying blotches on them. Here's one with a blotch:
View attachment 3654580

Looks like I've done it again and given my plants too little soil to unfold in.
Also, I didn't cook the soil mix even for 1 day this time round, so the soil foodweb quality probably wasn't amazing to begin with

In addition, I got the opportunity to look at the worm compost I had used to revitalize the girls and wasn't all too thrilled. While I definitely need to gain experience with handling samples and also in recognizing the microorganisms themselves, what I saw on this first exploration was, tons of bacteria (quite diverse, so that's ok), a few different kinds of nematodes (mostly bacterial feeding, and wow were they feeding!), quite a few amoebae, some flagellates, but also ciliates.
As for fungi, I may have broken the good hyphae by kneading up my wormcast samples - my compost is really gooey in consistency and kneading was the only way to get it mixed. So I saw lots of bits and pieces of beneficial fungi, but also a few strands of really skinny transparent ones (perceptually more than beneficials) - which tend to be bad guys and are indicative of an environment bordering on the anaerobic. And that from a plastic flow-through system that keeps leaning towards the anaerobic too...

So what I take from these observations is that the girls' recovery by extract probably was more due to the huge amounts of humic and fulvic acid in the vermicompost than the actual establishment of a rich beneficial microbial population that would be dense enough in the 11L of soil they have at their disposal to fully feed the plants throughout their lifecycle.

So here I am, surprisingly finding a use for the biobizz-nutes I thought I wouldn't EVER need after all LOL

Here's how the girls look today, after I thinned out the leafage by taking out most everything that they were going to discard anyways:
View attachment 3654605

I'll be feeding them light doses of the biobizz grow/bloom mix for the next few weeks.
I also do hope to get around to looking at the soil today too for an impression for what the microbial life is like in there.

This experience really is bringing home how making quality compost is probably the most crucial factor in a cultivation system that depends wholly on the soil foodweb (ok along with giving the plants enough root space haha!)...

Wow they have shot up! Looking great! :grin:

calliandra · Apr 12, 2016

Haha thanks guys, here's me niggling and moaning and forgetting that, all things summed up, they still look OK :bigjoint:

I took a look at the soil yesterday and my was I disappointed - compared to the worm compost, the girls' soil is barren haha! Talk about everything being relative :-P

Whilst I saw 5-6 nematodes (here, a bacterial feeder)

and tons of testate amoebae; which are indicative of very fungal environments and usually are only found in forest soils (the cutoff-oval shaped thingies in the pic: )

per slide of worm compost, there were none in the soil sample.

Bacteria, yes, and a few amoebae, but all in all, the worm compost was vastly more interesting = diversely populated.
The only positive difference was that there weren't any of those skinny hyphae indicating anaerobic conditions that I'd seen in the compost (but then again, there were hardly any fungal strands at all in the soil).

So maybe my worm compost is not all that bad after all?! :mrgreen:

Ah! So much to learn!

TheStickMan · Apr 27, 2016

Any updates? Its been a while they must be booming! :-P

calliandra · May 1, 2016

Ah Stick, always the optimist

Actually, they're kind of tripping along :roll:

The biobizz "treatment" showed no positive effect at all! They're still auto-defoliating, and yesterday I noticed a disquieting discoloration of just about ALL their leaves.

So I've gone back to amending with vermicompost, gave them half a handful each.
probably I shouldve just stuck with that right away lmao, so much for theorizing too much over stuff! :bigjoint:

Here they are, my anorexic sweeties, on day 25 of flower:

And yesterday, day 30 of flower:

YES, they have stretched more, YES they have built their buds and continue to fatten, and are icing up a bit too.

And still, I know they're not really healthy, and I feel a bit guilt-stricken when I think on it, especially since they still have another month of flower to go....
All other times of the day however, I'm not phased about it haha! (gosh am I cruel lol)
Cheers! :mrgreen:

TheStickMan · May 1, 2016

Yay, update!
i'm only an optimist on other peoples grows, I'm a pessimist on mine! lol and it seems you are turning the same way! Those buds look fantastic for 30 days flower, and I can count 4/5 ounce already on them, so you are going to be in for a great yield! You will definitely pull more this time round. :grin:

I hope you resolve the yellowing situation. I have the same biobizz nutrients that I need to find, I think they are in the loft. Need them for an outdoor grow, hopefully they work better than your experience! Won't be documenting the outdoor grow because of certain reasons, but will PM you photos of them if they are successful! :razz:

whitebb2727 · May 1, 2016

Looking good.

I got some samples from rxgreensolutions that advertise here. Also got some dynagro and botanicare samples.

I like the dynagrow. Good stuff.

I am really impressed with the rxgreensolutions. Give them a shout and try them out. They don't claim organic but use all natural ingredients.

I got a quart of foliage pro, quart of protect, and a few small bottles from dynagrow for $19 for the shipping and handling. Its worth it. Its enough for a few grows. Probably more with smaller grows.

calliandra · May 1, 2016

TheStickMan said:
Yay, update!
i'm only an optimist on other peoples grows, I'm a pessimist on mine! lol and it seems you are turning the same way! Those buds look fantastic for 30 days flower, and I can count 4/5 ounce already on them, so you are going to be in for a great yield! You will definitely pull more this time round.
I hope you resolve the yellowing situation. I have the same biobizz nutrients that I need to find, I think they are in the loft. Need them for an outdoor grow, hopefully they work better than your experience! Won't be documenting the outdoor grow because of certain reasons, but will PM you photos of them if they are successful!

Yeah no idea what went on there for the biobizz to turn out so toothless -- I mean I gave it 14 days to take effect, and zilch improvement - go figure!
As for the yield... haha I wish! 100g is the max I'd expect from this one, but we'll see

After all, I did have to add those reed stalks for support as the buds are getting pretty heavy...

whitebb2727 said:
Looking good.

I got some samples from rxgreensolutions that advertise here. Also got some dynagro and botanicare samples.

I like the dynagrow. Good stuff.

I am really impressed with the rxgreensolutions. Give them a shout and try them out. They don't claim organic but use all natural ingredients.

I got a quart of foliage pro, quart of protect, and a few small bottles from dynagrow for $19 for the shipping and handling. Its worth it. Its enough for a few grows. Probably more with smaller grows.

Thanks for the tips!
Looks like I can only get rxgreen shipped from the US - but there is a store selling dynagrow in the UK, which would have a chance of getting here in time. But then again, it's not the road I want to go down in general, so I'll probably agonize over "should I, should I not" until it's waaay too late anyways LOL
So this will probably end up just being a demonstration of what can be harvested from a grow gone yellow like this

whitebb2727 · May 1, 2016

calliandra said:
Yeah no idea what went on there for the biobizz to turn out so toothless -- I mean I gave it 14 days to take effect, and zilch improvement - go figure!
As for the yield... haha I wish! 100g is the max I'd expect from this one, but we'll see After all, I did have to add those reed stalks for support as the buds are getting pretty heavy...

Thanks for the tips!
Looks like I can only get rxgreen shipped from the US - but there is a store selling dynagrow in the UK, which would have a chance of getting here in time. But then again, it's not the road I want to go down in general, so I'll probably agonize over "should I, should I not" until it's waaay too late anyways LOL
So this will probably end up just being a demonstration of what can be harvested from a grow gone yellow like this

My bad, I forgot you are not in the us.

calliandra · May 5, 2016

Today, at 5 full weeks of flower (36 days), my girls got their first real sunrise

And what a pretty sight that was!

The pictures don't even come close to showing the full glimmering joy of it - I think I finally fell in love with these 2 - bygosh am I happy I didn't kill them when they were wee and wonky - or should I say even wonkier?

I'm finally just accepting the fact that these girls for some reason want to lollipop the hell out of themselves (and I considered removing the bottom larf for a sec to help them along with it, but then stopped - so now I have another "should I, should I not?" to toy with in the next few weeks pmsl).

I suspect it just has to do with my environment not being dialled in properly yet -- size of pot, quality of soil, and today after lights on whilst the sun was still shining in I saw how that HPS is still so far from the real thing!

Got me thinking of those white-looking LEDs I've begun to see in use. So yeah, the lights question - with all the agony of spectrum and elusive infos on it - will return to the table, inexorably haha :mrgreen:

TheStickMan · May 5, 2016

calliandra said:
Today, at 5 full weeks of flower (36 days), my girls got their first real sunrise

View attachment 3673792 View attachment 3673793 View attachment 3673794 View attachment 3673796

And what a pretty sight that was!

View attachment 3673798

The pictures don't even come close to showing the full glimmering joy of it - I think I finally fell in love with these 2 - bygosh am I happy I didn't kill them when they were wee and wonky - or should I say even wonkier?

I'm finally just accepting the fact that these girls for some reason want to lollipop the hell out of themselves (and I considered removing the bottom larf for a sec to help them along with it, but then stopped - so now I have another "should I, should I not?" to toy with in the next few weeks pmsl).

I suspect it just has to do with my environment not being dialled in properly yet -- size of pot, quality of soil, and today after lights on whilst the sun was still shining in I saw how that HPS is still so far from the real thing!
View attachment 3673801
Got me thinking of those white-looking LEDs I've begun to see in use. So yeah, the lights question - with all the agony of spectrum and elusive infos on it - will return to the table, inexorably haha

Stunning! Looking absolutely beautiful!
And it looks like you have sorted your yellow issue! So glad you didn't murder them ;-)

I don't want to sway your decision, but If I was lucky enough to have those girls I would remove maybe the bottom foot of growth, but thats just me!
Well done! :weed:

calliandra · May 5, 2016

TheStickMan said:
Stunning! Looking absolutely beautiful!
And it looks like you have sorted your yellow issue! So glad you didn't murder them
I don't want to sway your decision, but If I was lucky enough to have those girls I would remove maybe the bottom foot of growth, but thats just me!
Well done!

Yeah I read you've gotten into undressing the ladies - don't forget the pics!

Actually, I got offline after I'd posted and did just that - I was starting to call them their larfinesses, and that had to change

I did leave 1 or 2 larfsites to see whether they even budge by harvest time, but otherwise theyre bottom bare now.

And pmsl @ "sorting" the yellowing issue!
It's not an issue, it's a feature! - she said, and voilá lol
Self-trimming Sativas :bigjoint:

TheStickMan · May 6, 2016

calliandra said:
Yeah I read you've gotten into undressing the ladies - don't forget the pics!

Actually, I got offline after I'd posted and did just that - I was starting to call them their larfinesses, and that had to change I did leave 1 or 2 larfsites to see whether they even budge by harvest time, but otherwise theyre bottom bare now.

And pmsl @ "sorting" the yellowing issue!
It's not an issue, it's a feature! - she said, and voilá lol
Self-trimming Sativas

Yeah I have been naughty! Photo's will be on either tonight or tomorrow morning! :razz:

I think you've done the right thing there, can't wait for the next pics! :grin:

calliandra · May 15, 2016

Soo, my self-trimming sativas are still at it

lol

Here's how they looked 4 days ago at 6 full weeks of flower - shaved legs and all:

They've begun to foxtail a bit now, which their mother did too a few weeks before harvest, so I think they won't have to hold through that much longer, 2-3 weeks

To maybe assist them a bit, I brewed my first aerated compost tea with vermicompost. They actually got my second ACT, since the first started going anaerobic as it wasn't aerated enough. :-P

That was a really cool fail, because I was examining the ACT under the microscope and actually recognized how the actinobacteria were beginning to take over, and by the time I was done inspecting my sample the tea had begun to go smelly LOL So the first ACT went into the garden to water my cruciferous babies, who like those actinobacteria around.

So I started another batch. I have a 250L/hr aquarium pump and to get a good dissolved oxygen rate (of at least 6PPM) the maximum I can brew is 6L (I did 8L in the first batch). I held myself to the calculations and recipe of Tim Wilson (http://www.microbeorganics.com) for this second go and made it out of just water, 2 tablespoons of sugarbeet molasses and a cup of vermicompost.

It came out pretty good from the impression I got: tons of different shapes sizes and movement patterns of bacteria and amoebae, and nice nests of fungi forming in clumps of aggregates.
Quick look under the microscope - check out the flagellate's tail whipping around on the bottom right edge (it's the big roundish one below the blob of fungi/bacteria -- especially visible at 0:12 of the clip, I then refocus to other inhabitants of the sample)
I get really stoked to spot and recognize these things, beginner that I am at this! I am not yet doing "serious" assays, counting the bacteria and all that, for now I am just happy to get a general impression and discern more and more of the tiny critters in there :mrgreen:

So my girls got about 1L each of that -- will it help my naked girls fatten up their foxtailing buds?
Not sure, seeing it really is late in the day for them.
But one thing is certain: I will be using ACT again (oh the many possibilities of application!), will build my own worm bin (I'll be giving the one I recovered for my friend back to her in a week or so), and continue this amazing microbial journey!
:weed:

DonBrennon · May 15, 2016

calliandra said:
Soo, my self-trimming sativas are still at it lol

Here's how they looked 4 days ago at 6 full weeks of flower - shaved legs and all:
View attachment 3682041
They've begun to foxtail a bit now, which their mother did too a few weeks before harvest, so I think they won't have to hold through that much longer, 2-3 weeks

To maybe assist them a bit, I brewed my first aerated compost tea with vermicompost. They actually got my second ACT, since the first started going anaerobic as it wasn't aerated enough.
That was a really cool fail, because I was examining the ACT under the microscope and actually recognized how the actinobacteria were beginning to take over, and by the time I was done inspecting my sample the tea had begun to go smelly LOL So the first ACT went into the garden to water my cruciferous babies, who like those actinobacteria around.

So I started another batch. I have a 250L/hr aquarium pump and to get a good dissolved oxygen rate (of at least 6PPM) the maximum I can brew is 6L (I did 8L in the first batch). I held myself to the calculations and recipe of Tim Wilson (http://www.microbeorganics.com) for this second go and made it out of just water, 2 tablespoons of sugarbeet molasses and a cup of vermicompost.

It came out pretty good from the impression I got: tons of different shapes sizes and movement patterns of bacteria and amoebae, and nice nests of fungi forming in clumps of aggregates.
Quick look under the microscope - check out the flagellate's tail whipping around on the bottom right edge (it's the big roundish one below the blob of fungi/bacteria -- especially visible at 0:12 of the clip, I then refocus to other inhabitants of the sample)
I get really stoked to spot and recognize these things, beginner that I am at this! I am not yet doing "serious" assays, counting the bacteria and all that, for now I am just happy to get a general impression and discern more and more of the tiny critters in there

So my girls got about 1L each of that -- will it help my naked girls fatten up their foxtailing buds?
Not sure, seeing it really is late in the day for them.
But one thing is certain: I will be using ACT again (oh the many possibilities of application!), will build my own worm bin (I'll be giving the one I recovered for my friend back to her in a week or so), and continue this amazing microbial journey!

BRILLIANT!!!! wow, that's some lively tea you've brewed there and the video's quality. Which scope did you get and where did you get it? LOL, I want one.

calliandra · May 15, 2016

DonBrennon said:
BRILLIANT!!!! wow, that's some lively tea you've brewed there and the video's quality. Which scope did you get and where did you get it? LOL, I want one.

Haha thanks! Yeah they're really partying there as compared to how they looked in the vermicompost itself (which by the way has improved aLOT in quality since I have begun letting it dry up for harvest) :mrgreen:

Actually I shortcutted on the microscope, since the last shop that used to sell microscopes around here has closed down that part of their business AND I was a tad overwhelmed with learning what exactly I need to look for in a scope (incl. qualitative differences between brands etc) to trust myself with choosing one myself

So I just got the one Elaine Ingham recommends as good value: http://www.microscopenet.com/40x400...-with-builtin-digital-camera-soil-p-9814.html
Beware of shipping & import taxes to Europe though, they added another good 150 euros to the price. OTOH I didn't find a Europe-based online business where I was going to get one with the right specs (binocular, movable stage, NA1.25 Abbe condenser & iris diaphragm, and I really wanted that builtin cam!) any cheaper.

Also, I'm not totally sure whether it's just me and my untrained eye, but I have the feeling the 400x magnification isn't really 400x - the size doesn't double from 200x - and I'd often like to get a closer look at the critters to identify them, beginner that I am.

DonBrennon · May 15, 2016

calliandra said:
Haha thanks! Yeah they're really partying there as compared to how they looked in the vermicompost itself (which by the way has improved aLOT in quality since I have begun letting it dry up for harvest)

Actually I shortcutted on the microscope, since the last shop that used to sell microscopes around here has closed down that part of their business AND I was a tad overwhelmed with learning what exactly I need to look for in a scope (incl. qualitative differences between brands etc) to trust myself with choosing one myself
So I just got the one Elaine Ingham recommends as good value: http://www.microscopenet.com/40x400...-with-builtin-digital-camera-soil-p-9814.html
Beware of shipping & import taxes to Europe though, they added another good 150 euros to the price. OTOH I didn't find a Europe-based online business where I was going to get one with the right specs (binocular, movable stage, NA1.25 Abbe condenser & iris diaphragm, and I really wanted that builtin cam!) any cheaper.

Also, I'm not totally sure whether it's just me and my untrained eye, but I have the feeling the 400x magnification isn't really 400x - the size doesn't double from 200x - and I'd often like to get a closer look at the critters to identify them, beginner that I am.

Hahaha, I know what you mean about the required specifications being confusing. I also found that from a European based supplier the price was much higher for the same spec.

I've been stung with unexpected import taxes on cob's and drivers before now, so I was looking to buy one from europe. If you don't mind me asking, how much did you pay in total? I want one, but I'm not sure I brew tea's often enough to justify the price

calliandra · May 15, 2016

DonBrennon said:
Hahaha, I know what you mean about the required specifications being confusing. I also found that from a European based supplier the price was much higher for the same spec.

I've been stung with unexpected import taxes on cob's and drivers before now, so I was looking to buy one from europe. If you don't mind me asking, how much did you pay in total? I want one, but I'm not sure I brew tea's often enough to justify the price

Actually, I went back and checked -- all in all I spent 640 euros (140 was VAT mainly - we have 20% of it on just about everything in Austria - and import tax, the rest was the scope + shipping). So actually, I do think you can get a scope with the needed specs in Europe directly for that.

Thing is, during my research I saw microscope people (Ingham, but also read the same from Tim Wilson somewhere) saying how a brand microscope like a Leica was actually weaker than cheaper ones on the one hand, plus on the other I had some encounters with microbiologists who were going, "you can't see bacteria under 400x mag after they've been dried and stained!" -- they weren't acquainted with the technique of shadowing and looking at them alive (meaning no prospects of guidance from the "insiders").
So I saw that it was going to take a nice trip down the rabbit hole of microscopy to answer all the questions arising from that (e.g. WHAT is it that makes the chinese one better than the brand one?) - and dodged the research work by just getting that "tried and tested" one - lazy me haha :rolleyes:

It really IS an investment, but I also plan to assay soil samples in future and have a long list of innoculation experiments vs. fungal and bacterial infections on roses and tomatoes and my little cherry tree that require my really knowing what amount and diversity of microbial life I am applying. And, music of the future, maybe some day I'll have gained enough experience to be able to consult people on managing their soil/disease problems with microorganisms - I really am a believer on this, it just makes such perfect sense :mrgreen:

TheStickMan · May 15, 2016

Wow, they really are keen at getting their kit off arent they?! lol I wonder why that is?
The buds are looking good thou and are packing the weight on! :grin:

badly mistreated clones saved by vermicompost extract

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