Been a Long Time Coming ~ Been a long Time Gone

Hey Harkin, howzit?

Yeah, get some DP so we can compare. Stuff I got going is deff very bushy_no problem with that at all_very dark green and starting to stink, which I find encouraging.

I've never smoked DP but I am eagerly awaiting since everything I've heard is that it is rocket fuel, and I'm ready to give it a go.

Thanks for the comment. Hope you find something here which helps you in your journey.

Ok…so I have taken some time to wade and sift through this, and ponder, and think some more, and then read some more and then ponder some more….you know…this would be a lot easier if I at least had some frickin’ bud to puff on! I have tried to take the salient points and put them down, for my own consideration and clarity, for you all to critique and red-line, and for all of us to engage in further debate.

From the information presented below, it would seem that a dioecious plant (i.e.,having unisexual reproductive units with male and female plants) can be induced artificially by the external application of hormones, however, marijuana does not seem to be one of them. The plant will morph into flowering as a function of a series of compound events/actions – age of the plant, photoperiod, thermal time duration, etc.

1. The purpose of trichomes is generally accepted as a defense mechanism, especially in relation to phyotphagous insects. In essence, trichomes advertise the presence of noxious compounds (Reference - The Role of Trichomes in Plant Defense Donald A. Levin The Quarterly Review of Biology, Vol. 48, No. 1, Part 1 (Mar., 1973), pp. 3-15)
2. The presence of cannabinoids is already detected as early as 48-50 hrs in seedling. Cannabinoid concentrations were higher in “light” grown plants, and the “dark” grown plants (Reference - Cannabinoid Occurrence in Seedlings of Cannabis sativa L.: Quantitation in Seedlings of Known Age and Primary Leaf Length Ann F. Vogelmann, Jocelyn C. Turner, Paul G. MahlbergBotanical Gazette, Vol. 148, No. 4 (Dec., 1987), pp. 468-474)
3. the trichome sphere has physical properties that can be compared to the human eye in regards to light management and may function in a manner to “focus” and enhance low light conditions.
4. the human eye lens exhibits a chromatic aberration but the eye has a yellow pigment that corrects the problem by the way it absorbs blue light.
5. does the trichrome turn amber (i.e., yellow) to also optimize blue light spectrum that is beneficial to flowering growth?
6. there is contradictory evidence regarding the “first” cannabinoids observed in plant growth and early maturation (CBC vs CGB). This is important only in where the activated THC originates (from CBG or from CBC by UVB photon bombardment), but not in this discussion (I think?)
7. it has been clearly demonstrated that UVB light is critical in further elevating psychoactive cannabinoids and evidence is even presented to say that indoor lighting regardless of type is hampered by glass (a barrier to UVB).
8. the psychoactive cannabinoid concentrations are highest within the sphere, and not elsewhere.
9. the density of trichromes increases significantly with the pollination and fertilization of the ovum – it is the process of pollination that triggers the massive production of trichromes. I read this as a direct function of hormone development and “maturity”. This was actually discussed in a previous thread on RIU (https://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/19288-breeding-question.html).
10. however, marijuana is capable of parthenocarpy (the production of fruits without fertilization – a form of asexual reproduction) and it is a strongly held belief that photoperiod is the only thing that will trigger parthenocarpy.
11. Fruit development is usually dependent on a signal from the developing seeds. Parthenocarpic fruit set can be induced in many species by auxin, GA or cytokinin or some combination of these hormones.
12. marijuana is considered a “short-day” flowering plant – naturally fruiting in the fall, when the days are shorter – it is argued that this is somewhat of a misnomer, is it has more to do with the dark period than the light period (i.e., this implies that the “critical period” is the dark period, and not the light period).
13. In short-day plants flowering are inhibited by the Pfr form of phytochrome. The night needs to be long enough for Pfr accumulated during the day to revert to Pr or be broken down altogether. If the nights are interrupted by a brief period of low-intensity light Pr will be converted back to Pfr and the plant will not flower.
14. flowering responses were typical for a short-day plant, with flowering occurring rapidly in daylengths less than about 14 h and with increasing delay at longer photoperiods (Reference - Development of a hemp (Cannabis sativa L.) simulation model 2.The flowering response of two hemp cultivars to photoperiod S. N. Lisson, N. J. Mendham and P. S. Carberry Australian Journal of Experimental Agriculture 40(3) 413 - 417 )
15. but what importance does the plant’s stage of maturity hold in this stage of the process – can an immature plant with the right photoperiod be induced into parthenocarpy ?

Fundamentally, it would seem that the creation and destruction of the hormone, and as the daylight/night balance shifts, the build up, eventually, with other factors creates the circumstances to “induce” flowering.

My brain is fried at this point. I can’t think anymore. An experiment where identical strains are subjected to identical environmental conditions, where different plants are put into different photoperiods, and all else being equal, see if flowering can be “induced” by photoperiod variability only.

Great Post ! Yeah baby - Clear your conscious and free your mind.

My little experiment is kinda revolving around whether there is an advantage in using a UV coated_in the blue range_material inside of the grow area or an uncoated, plus a bunch of other little side stuff to either validate or disprove certain beliefs. No, bleach was not one. LOL

eh...thanks Grandfather....march on....I think there is significantly more to learn, at least for me....and you're on that path already. good luck....and let's keep that learning curve vertical!

I was just reading that thread CFLs are stupid" and its really making me think that next time 'round....I wanna try the "other" lights....

Your Grandfather said:

Masta! Hey buddy, how the heck are you? Smoking dem budz I bet. Don't worry, you don't have to figure this out, we'll do it and pass it along. You can just sit back, relax and enjoy the trip

Here's a bit o' music for your Thanksgiving eve:
YouTube - 7th Heaven Broken

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i am great my rastafari and rock and roll friend. yes i will sit back and let you guys decipher these scientific theories haha. i might take another gander at this stuff and see what i come up with. i believe i can use some of your out of the box thinking to my advantage next grow. good luck with your green kids. i will be watching patiently with an open mind to all of this innovative thinking. a happy holiday to all and i will holler at you later my forward thinking friend lol.

tahoe58 said:

I was just reading that thread CFLs are stupid" and its really making me think that next time 'round....I wanna try the "other" lights....

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Hard to argue with success, and those lights are successful, without a doubt.

Myself, however, I choose to walk a different path, taking my time to explore, ponder and question. Makes the journey_imho_a heck of a lot more interesting.

If I needed to have supply of killer weed and didn't have access to what I have, well then shit fire, I'd have that 6 light vertical setup, but I don't, so I'm just experimenting to see what, produces what, and if, at the end of the journey, I have some new seeds and even one jay bird to smoke, a ton of pictures and some data....

Well then..... Bartender, drinks for everyone I'm buying

Thanks Tahoe... excellentpost. Plenty there to digest and question. Where I am though it is barely 0800.

I believe the photoperiod is the most important, and I particularly liked the part about trich's magnifying low light conditions. Also about the animal intervention.

Some insects may be put off by the potency of the trich's but I doubt many would. Is it phyotphagous or phytophagus? I looked it up on google and it gives answers for both, but i think it's phytophagus hymenoptera... although this group also includes bees. The article does stipulate that a large proportion of phytophagus are beneficial to plants and man.

You know what I see a lot of in my flowering area during the summer months? Wasps. I get quite a few move into my flowering area... not many usually one or two at a time. At first I thought the attraction was the lights. But the amount of times I just see a wasp sitting on my buds, not moving. Like its hypnotised.

I'll be honest, I'm scared of wasps. Not panic stricken, but my initial reaction is usually to hightail out of its way... but these guys don't move. Honestly it's like they're dead. They actually move-in in there. When lights come on the wasps I thought were dead (as I wouldn't touch one till i was def' it was dead) are flying around. Then I get out the way, and visit later. No sign of the wasp, that is untill I check the buds a bit more closely... and there I find them... stoned, and uncaring. Gotta run my kids to school, great read, tahoe.

Back to trich's... so as trich's are initially a response to low levels of sunlight, and not all trich's contain cannabinoids, it's safe to assume that the dark period does little for potent trich production other than produce trich's during the dark hours... which then age in the light.

Nature is never wasteful, so as part of the aging process of the trich's cannabinoids are introduced as a way of discouraging certain types of wildlife while at the same time encouraging others. A delicate balance carved out over ages of evolution.

good morning Folks. thanks for the supportive and other comments. this is a very interesting pathway, and I will be contnuing my search for more and more "side-threads" and diversions to follow up and see what info I can come up with.

Grandfather - I totallly agree with you - the choice is our own as to which path we take, and you have very good reasons for choosing your path. As do I. I stated in my first (or second) post of my journal that I was not after the phattist bud, the tallest tree, or the dankest smoke. I wanted to show to myself that I can grow some good smoke simply and effectively (and in my case - hopefully in a relatively short time as I have been abstinent for over a year!!! hahahaha). Maybe the choice of a different lighting system will improve what I get this time around (and it might even quicken the pace), that might be the next part of this experiment to 'gro' yur own'.

Skunk - that story about the bees is most interesting. some stoner bees. I understand your feeling towards them. I too am not scared of them, but I certainly give them their space. The thoughts around the spelling, I took it as it was spelled in the journal article. So I am not certain of the significance of that spelling differential. I am certainly more of the thinking that the plant's "noxious" traits are more of a defense. However, it maybe that certain species will be attracted and then function in the all important pollination process - I mean from the plant's long term livelihood perspective.

Nicotine in tobaccco is another interesting example. Nicotine based insecticides were poular until they were banned. Nicotine is a naturally occuring plant insecticide that evolved in the tobacco plant. the biological world has evolved a myriad of unbelieveably complex mechanisms substances and structures all with the intent to provide them with "the competitive advantage" essentially saying I want MY GENES to be continued....and these are both of a defensive and offensive nature - like flowers with colour that direct pollinators to the right place - and now maybe a consideration of the tale of the stoner bees to help with the continuation of the most potent pot plants? very interesting thought. evolution and the adaptive nature of...well nature has always astounded me - I guess thats why I love being a wildlife biologist so much!! . I always tell the same story to those that are intersted - the relationship between the cheetah and the Thomspon's Gazelle - the cheetah has evolved to withstand a body temperature rise of 1 degree MORE than the gazelle because that gives it the advantage of running just that little bit longer to be successful in securing its prey. there are so many examples of "intelligent design" within the context of evolution, I do not believe we have any "real" idea how complex (and important) some of these systems and individual player may be

I am most intrigued by (1) this business that does a plant have to be mature or can it be "matured" with photoperiod, and (2) the intricate and complex series of actions and interaction of the light and the sphere, and specially the role of UVB and the changes in the chemical constituents.

This is goona be so much fun. just like the two year old says incenssantly - why.....yea but why....I here you, but why? keep asking why? keep digging deeper. keep stretching the fabric of your mind and your understanding. fascinating stuff! And it is SO wonderful to have others wherever they are - intrigued, and inclined to continue this pursuit - to a better understanding.

extremely well put....thanks man! the delicate balance......that is until man comes along and decides that....we can control nature....what a joke!....sorry...don't get me started....on our arrogance as it relates to the powers of nature. I need a toke....but I have to wait another couple of months.....grrrrrrr!

skunkushybrid said:

Back to trich's... so as trich's are initially a response to low levels of sunlight, and not all trich's contain cannabinoids, it's safe to assume that the dark period does little for potent trich production other than produce trich's during the dark hours... which then age in the light.

Nature is never wasteful, so as part of the aging process of the trich's cannabinoids are introduced as a way of discouraging certain types of wildlife while at the same time encouraging others. A delicate balance carved out over ages of evolution.

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Parthenocarpy... From what I know about cannabis from trying to force a plant to go early is that it can take a long time to pre-flower.

Even 2 weeks in some cases. 2 weeks that would have been better spent in veg' imo.

There are strains in Africa (I think) that only need 9 hours dark to flower. If this is all it needs, then it must be perfectly capable building the necessary hormone within this time for it to flower, and I can't see how prolonging the dark period would make this go any faster, especially in regards to maturity.

The fact that cannabis can show sex in just 4 weeks of 24/0 shows that it needs the photoperiod to mature to a level where it can flower, also shows that it can be born fairly late on in the year and still be capable of maturing and flowering. Yet I believe it needs (although minimal) a certain amount of good photoperiod to mature adequately.

good morning Skunk...yes I am totally therewith you. The articles that I read last evening talked about the differential maturing times for different species, and if I recall correctly, it could be linked directly to their individual location as it relates to the available photperiod and meet the needs of the 'short-day' plant type for that region.

As you have already acknowledged (somewhere I can't remember where), the 'genetic' engineering we do can 'play' with those attirbutes. and under the 'control' of the indoor environment, we have prolly manipulated that to some degree with the different strains that are being produced these days. but as with all genetics, it is still the roll of a dice to some degree, and the recombination is not something that can be 'totally' predicted. I can tell you some very interesting stories about my 20 years of breeding horses. it just takes time, and patience, and trying over and over again.

The interesting prt of the 24/0 and the 'need' for a dark period? makes things intereting. is the 24/0 pushing the 'physical' and physiological limits of the 'production machine' (i.e., each cells mitochondria energy powerhouse and nutirent loading mechanisms) where the gains are offset?

There are many more here, including yourself that have mountains of more hands on experience and I am so excited about learning more about this.....my brain has been put back into overdrive....

skunkushybrid said:

Parthenocarpy... From what I know about cannabis from trying to force a plant to go early is that it can take a long time to pre-flower.

Even 2 weeks in some cases. 2 weeks that would have been better spent in veg' imo.

There are strains in Africa (I think) that only need 9 hours dark to flower. If this is all it needs, then it must be perfectly capable building the necessary hormone within this time for it to flower, and I can't see how prolonging the dark period would make this go any faster, especially in regards to maturity.

The fact that cannabis can show sex in just 4 weeks of 24/0 shows that it needs the photoperiod to mature to a level where it can flower, also shows that it can be born fairly late on in the year and still be capable of maturing and flowering. Yet I believe it needs (although minimal) a certain amount of good photoperiod to mature adequately.

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Thanks for the vote of confidence tahoe, but I'm merely a layman like yourself.

I do love puzzles though... the thrill of a chess game... I just enjoy thinking, and my mind needs to be constantly active. Without weed, I get bored very easily and i find it difficult to concentrate...

So this is something I can get my teeth into. My weed situ' isn't too clever either atm. I've been smoking oil, and I need to chop down my last background plant to make some more.

With 3 weeks left to harvest day it's going to be a struggle, and I may have to buy street weed to see me through. I can never go more than a few hours without it.

Yikes, you just profiled me pretty much, except I don't smoke no oil and availability is no problem.

But, FOR SURE, I can't go a couple of hours without a hit. OMG! am I a kronic?

Happy Thanksgiving if you celebrate the Americans taking the country from the Red Man, if you don't celebrate, then just have a great day.

Eye Candy coming....

skunkushybrid said:

Thanks for the vote of confidence tahoe, but I'm merely a layman like yourself.

I do love puzzles though... the thrill of a chess game... I just enjoy thinking, and my mind needs to be constantly active. Without weed, I get bored very easily and i find it difficult to concentrate...

So this is something I can get my teeth into. My weed situ' isn't too clever either atm. I've been smoking oil, and I need to chop down my last background plant to make some more.

With 3 weeks left to harvest day it's going to be a struggle, and I may have to buy street weed to see me through. I can never go more than a few hours without it.

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Decided today would be a good day to put 2 of the germmies into their 'forever home'. One home is clay and one is plastic, both the same cube size. +time for a hit +I decided to post some pictures of how I prepare the pots. Trying to stay away from bleached products_roflmao_so I'm using brown coffee filters. Put about 1" of nice pearlite to aide drainage and also prevent any kind of moisture problems where the roots concentrate.

You can see, ^ thread, what my soil mix ends up looking like. I put 1 teaspoon of the bat guano into the mix (approx 1 gal of mix), about 40% pearlite and Fox Farm Ocean Forrest as the soil_this stuff is just soooooo good. Mix until I think it is ok, and then I take a hit and mix it again.

So, I gotta tell this story. Way back, I mean, way, way, way back like the late '70's. I told you it was waaaaay back there.

Okay, me and a good friend of mine, who I know is a lurker here_and can attest to this story_decided to go fishing in the morning. Friend says "can my brother-in-law come along? He's kewl". Okay, I got no problem with anyone and people who are kewl, well, come on and join in

Now, you have to understand that I've always been known for having the 'good shit'.

So, shortly before sunrise, all 3 of us are in my car heading to someplace where we think we can terrorize some fish. Of course, we are smoking phatt jaybirds on the way_gotta have that morning wake & bake _so we get to the fishing hole and set about fishing.

Hooks baited with worms, one more fat bomber, and let's fish. My friend cast first, nice cast, bobber floating, life is good. I go next, basically same thing, no problem.

Now, I want you to put into your head what a person looks like when they are preparing to cast a fishing line. Their arm goes upwards and then they move the arm forward and cast the line out. All in one fluid motion. Well, brother-in-law, doesn't smoke that much weed, so when he goes to cast. I guess that the rapid arm movement was a bit too much for him and when he cast his line out. He basically followed it and fell face forward right into the water.

He ended up face down in the water, along the shoreline, maybe 6" deep, flopping around like a fish. We just stood there looking at each other and then at him, and then broke out into uncontrolled laughter. When he got up he said he's never been this high before and asked us to take him to the hospital. Oh sure, like we are going to do that.

Enjoy the eye candy and the day.

Hahahahaha I'm not even goofed but that was funny. Poor bloke thought he was gonna die. Same kinda thing happened to my girlfriend..she doesn't really smoke much and one night she had a few puffs and next thing she's puking up in the bathroom and making weird noises. She starts maoning the words 'hheeeelllppppp', so I got worried. She had also locked the bathroom door. So I had to bash the door in like Rambo to find her slumped over the basin. She said phone an ambulance which I did in the end cos she was cryin and thought she was gonna die. The poors paremedics came out for nothing and she just slept for the night. Last time I let her hit one of my doobies. Sorry for the long story, thought I would share

"Hospital? Buddy if you die, we're outta here!" ha ha ha ha ha

I'm glad I started young.

Could this be what I think it might be?

mmm green and luscious