Best way to combat pythium and root rot in all hydroponic growing methods.

J

J Henry

Active Member
Budley Doright said:
View attachment 3621398 View attachment 3621392 Wow a resurrected thread from way back huh lol
^^^^^I don't get the % when speaking in amounts of DO either but I'm relating it to something like relative humidity, so the amount it can hold to what it is holding, which is wrong obviously. But besides that, I got the rot in a spray system with no standing water and timed sprayers which I thought was pretty hard due to the amount of O2 available. Turns out that my actual root zone was getting above 70 on a consistent basis. Lowering the temps in both the root zone and Res, plus adding hydroguard has improved things tremendously from this (2nd pic) to this (1st pic), I have recently replaced the hydroguard with OregonismXL. Just a note that pool shock, bleach, and H2O2 did not seem to cure but did hold it at bay.
Click to expand...
Yep, you’re right. It’s from way back and is still as true and correct as the day it was written and published.

Prevention is cheaper and much less stressful than curing the disease. Plant health always suffers the most from the disease even upon recovery, weeks are lost.

Don’t feel alone, what happened to you is very common and well within the norm for the majority of farmers.

The low oxygen problem and paradox how to insure there will be no low oxygen problem has been around a while, but no is listening and the fix is often ignored as history demonstrated every day.

The “rot” is cause by an opportunist fungal pathogen, the fungi is ubiquitous, it’s everywhere all the time and it usually does not exhibit until the environment becomes oxygen deficient (hypoxic). Fungi (Pythium and other fungal species) thrive in low oxygen hypoxic environments. Clearly you had a low oxygen issue.

You mentioned, “Turns out that my actual root zone was getting above 70 on a consistent basis.” 70 what? What does 70 mean?

Waiting for the disease crisis to happen, then acting on disease crisis intervention: How much time did you waste from the time you realized you had a rot problem to the time toy applied the chemicals, days/hours? How much did all those chemicals and stuff cost? And how many hours of stress has this disease caused for you?

“Just a note that pool shock, bleach, and H2O2 did not seem to cure but did hold it at bay.” That’s all these chemicals did?

You might add this note too: That slimy brown/black glob of goo in the bottom of the res box is fungus, dead decaying plant material and dead microbes. All those harsh chemicals most probably also killed every Beneficial too along with every other microbe in the solution and root zone. Plus you entire system including water pumps and pipes are well contaminated with fungi too.

It’s easier and far less aggravating and expensive to prevent this disease problem than cure it after the fungi establishes itself and thrives in your DWC.

J
 
Budley Doright

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
J Henry said:
Yep, you’re right. It’s from way back and is still as true and correct as the day it was written and published.

Prevention is cheaper and much less stressful than curing the disease. Plant health always suffers the most from the disease even upon recovery, weeks are lost.

Don’t feel alone, what happened to you is very common and well within the norm for the majority of farmers.

The low oxygen problem and paradox how to insure there will be no low oxygen problem has been around a while, but no is listening and the fix is often ignored as history demonstrated every day.

The “rot” is cause by an opportunist fungal pathogen, the fungi is ubiquitous, it’s everywhere all the time and it usually does not exhibit until the environment becomes oxygen deficient (hypoxic). Fungi (Pythium and other fungal species) thrive in low oxygen hypoxic environments. Clearly you had a low oxygen issue.

You mentioned, “Turns out that my actual root zone was getting above 70 on a consistent basis.” 70 what? What does 70 mean?

Waiting for the disease crisis to happen, then acting on disease crisis intervention: How much time did you waste from the time you realized you had a rot problem to the time toy applied the chemicals, days/hours? How much did all those chemicals and stuff cost? And how many hours of stress has this disease caused for you?

“Just a note that pool shock, bleach, and H2O2 did not seem to cure but did hold it at bay.” That’s all these chemicals did?

You might add this note too: That slimy brown/black glob of goo in the bottom of the res box is fungus, dead decaying plant material and dead microbes. All those harsh chemicals most probably also killed every Beneficial too along with every other microbe in the solution and root zone. Plus you entire system including water pumps and pipes are well contaminated with fungi too.

It’s easier and far less aggravating and expensive to prevent this disease problem than cure it after the fungi establishes itself and thrives in your DWC.

J
Click to expand...
The 70 is 70 degrees Fahrenheit. So how could it be lack of O2 in a timed spray setup with no standing water, that's what I don't get. Also I didn't have any brown goo in the Res other than what's in the bottom of the net pot. And yup it was a huge setback and if was a commercial op it would be a giant money pit lol.
 
J

J Henry

Active Member
Budley Doright said:
The 70 is 70 degrees Fahrenheit. So how could it be lack of O2 in a timed spray setup with no standing water, that's what I don't get. Also I didn't have any brown goo in the Res other than what's in the bottom of the net pot. And yup it was a huge setback and if was a commercial op it would be a giant money pit lol.
Click to expand...
Setbacks and expensive is always relative to how much "skin in the game" you got. 70F aerated water does not insure safe oxygenation, Here' s where a DO Meter is vital to test the water and actually determine much DO is really present. Without testing the solution with a DO Meter, you are guessing and hoping at very best.

Maybe this piece will help shed more light.

Mechanical Treatment https://www.hydroculture.co.uk/Blog/What-You-Need-to-Know-About-Pythium-(Root-Rot)/

"As water becomes warmer, it contains less dissolved oxygen. Furthermore, if your hydroponic solution rises above 20 degrees Celsius, the warmth will nurture bacterial growth in the rhizosphere (root zone) – and these bacteria will then consume what little oxygen is available. Unlike bacteria, Pythium thrives in anaerobic (oxygen-depleted) environments."


"A hydroponic system which is kept too warm, therefore, becomes a perfect environment within which Pythium can multiply. By utilising a mechanical water chiller, you can keep your entire system well-oxygenated and discourage the growth of both Pythium and warmth-loving bacteria. Maintaining your system at a temperature below 20 degrees is one of the most natural, straightforward methods of ensuring its health."

[Air and Water temperature seriously limit oxygenation capability for this author perception of oxygenation techniques.]

The point of the preventive exercise is keeping the hydroponic solution focused on, “well-oxygenated.” This author says, “Well-oxygenated” hydroponic water temp 20C (68F) = 100% DO saturation, 9.1 ppm DO Saturation. Well-oxygenated seriously discourages both Pythium and warmth-loving bacteria.

Then the writer states that keeping solution system temp below 20C is ONE of the most natural, straightforward methods of ensuring its [plant] health. Ensuring it health means keeping the system “well-oxygenated.”
This writer does not mention the oxygen demand requirements for Beneficial microbes, "well-oxygenated also being vital for aerobic microbial health and survival.

This is 1 opinion and "ONE" way, but certainly this is not the best way to ensure excellent continuous safe oxygenation for all the plants and Beneficial microbes that consume their fair share of oxygen. Safe well-oxygenated meaning continuous 100% DO saturation 24/7 sustaining a minimum of 9.1 ppm DO concentration… or greater.

So if 9.1 DO concentration and 100% DO Saturation is considered "well-oxygenated" and great for preventing and inhibiting fungal outbreaks and maintaining plant health…

What do you think about this?
Increasing the water temp to 26.7C (80F), increase oxygenation to15 ppm DO Concentration and increase DO Saturation to 187% DO Supersaturation? This would be far better than "well-oxygenated." This would be called "Super-oxygenated" and a powerful fungal inhibitor. Imagine how this much oxygen might affect plants and Beneficial colonies.

Here’s a DO calculator to play with water temp, barometric pressure, ppm DO concentration and % DO Saturation. http://www.waterontheweb.org/under/waterquality/DOSatCalc.html

J
 
T

twistedwords

Well-Known Member
J Henry said:
Setbacks and expensive is always relative to how much "skin in the game" you got. 70F aerated water does not insure safe oxygenation, Here' s where a DO Meter is vital to test the water and actually determine much DO is really present. Without testing the solution with a DO Meter, you are guessing and hoping at very best.

Maybe this piece will help shed more light.

Mechanical Treatment https://www.hydroculture.co.uk/Blog/What-You-Need-to-Know-About-Pythium-(Root-Rot)/

"As water becomes warmer, it contains less dissolved oxygen. Furthermore, if your hydroponic solution rises above 20 degrees Celsius, the warmth will nurture bacterial growth in the rhizosphere (root zone) – and these bacteria will then consume what little oxygen is available. Unlike bacteria, Pythium thrives in anaerobic (oxygen-depleted) environments."


"A hydroponic system which is kept too warm, therefore, becomes a perfect environment within which Pythium can multiply. By utilising a mechanical water chiller, you can keep your entire system well-oxygenated and discourage the growth of both Pythium and warmth-loving bacteria. Maintaining your system at a temperature below 20 degrees is one of the most natural, straightforward methods of ensuring its health."

[Air and Water temperature seriously limit oxygenation capability for this author perception of oxygenation techniques.]

The point of the preventive exercise is keeping the hydroponic solution focused on, “well-oxygenated.” This author says, “Well-oxygenated” hydroponic water temp 20C (68F) = 100% DO saturation, 9.1 ppm DO Saturation. Well-oxygenated seriously discourages both Pythium and warmth-loving bacteria.

Then the writer states that keeping solution system temp below 20C is ONE of the most natural, straightforward methods of ensuring its [plant] health. Ensuring it health means keeping the system “well-oxygenated.”
This writer does not mention the oxygen demand requirements for Beneficial microbes, "well-oxygenated also being vital for aerobic microbial health and survival.

This is 1 opinion and "ONE" way, but certainly this is not the best way to ensure excellent continuous safe oxygenation for all the plants and Beneficial microbes that consume their fair share of oxygen. Safe well-oxygenated meaning continuous 100% DO saturation 24/7 sustaining a minimum of 9.1 ppm DO concentration… or greater.

So if 9.1 DO concentration and 100% DO Saturation is considered "well-oxygenated" and great for preventing and inhibiting fungal outbreaks and maintaining plant health…

What do you think about this?
Increasing the water temp to 26.7C (80F), increase oxygenation to15 ppm DO Concentration and increase DO Saturation to 187% DO Supersaturation? This would be far better than "well-oxygenated." This would be called "Super-oxygenated" and a powerful fungal inhibitor. Imagine how this much oxygen might affect plants and Beneficial colonies.

Here’s a DO calculator to play with water temp, barometric pressure, ppm DO concentration and % DO Saturation. http://www.waterontheweb.org/under/waterquality/DOSatCalc.html

J
Click to expand...

Someone who understands it here besides sales reps. Yes many forget about the barometric pressure and even the gravity of the water. Then the real kicker is the saturation level and that is the key.
 
Budley Doright

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
twistedwords said:
Someone who understands it here besides sales reps. Yes many forget about the barometric pressure and even the gravity of the water. Then the real kicker is the saturation level and that is the key.
Click to expand...
I think we all understand it lol. Just most ignore it or think what they have is fine, like me. I had no noticeable issues for many years then wham. Yes I knew I was on the edge of it happening but failed to act. And without adding pure oxygen I think most growers are limited to controlling temps and yes air to a point, temps being the key for most growers I think. Having a DO meter would be nice but IMO not necessarily needed for hobby grows. Now that I am able to control temps things are going very well. I have asked many times though, how would having roots suspended in air not supply enough O2? I thought I had that covered but obviously not lol.
 
Budley Doright

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
J Henry said:
Setbacks and expensive is always relative to how much "skin in the game" you got. 70F aerated water does not insure safe oxygenation, Here' s where a DO Meter is vital to test the water and actually determine much DO is really present. Without testing the solution with a DO Meter, you are guessing and hoping at very best.

Maybe this piece will help shed more light.

Mechanical Treatment https://www.hydroculture.co.uk/Blog/What-You-Need-to-Know-About-Pythium-(Root-Rot)/

"As water becomes warmer, it contains less dissolved oxygen. Furthermore, if your hydroponic solution rises above 20 degrees Celsius, the warmth will nurture bacterial growth in the rhizosphere (root zone) – and these bacteria will then consume what little oxygen is available. Unlike bacteria, Pythium thrives in anaerobic (oxygen-depleted) environments."


"A hydroponic system which is kept too warm, therefore, becomes a perfect environment within which Pythium can multiply. By utilising a mechanical water chiller, you can keep your entire system well-oxygenated and discourage the growth of both Pythium and warmth-loving bacteria. Maintaining your system at a temperature below 20 degrees is one of the most natural, straightforward methods of ensuring its health."

[Air and Water temperature seriously limit oxygenation capability for this author perception of oxygenation techniques.]

The point of the preventive exercise is keeping the hydroponic solution focused on, “well-oxygenated.” This author says, “Well-oxygenated” hydroponic water temp 20C (68F) = 100% DO saturation, 9.1 ppm DO Saturation. Well-oxygenated seriously discourages both Pythium and warmth-loving bacteria.

Then the writer states that keeping solution system temp below 20C is ONE of the most natural, straightforward methods of ensuring its [plant] health. Ensuring it health means keeping the system “well-oxygenated.”
This writer does not mention the oxygen demand requirements for Beneficial microbes, "well-oxygenated also being vital for aerobic microbial health and survival.

This is 1 opinion and "ONE" way, but certainly this is not the best way to ensure excellent continuous safe oxygenation for all the plants and Beneficial microbes that consume their fair share of oxygen. Safe well-oxygenated meaning continuous 100% DO saturation 24/7 sustaining a minimum of 9.1 ppm DO concentration… or greater.

So if 9.1 DO concentration and 100% DO Saturation is considered "well-oxygenated" and great for preventing and inhibiting fungal outbreaks and maintaining plant health…

What do you think about this?
Increasing the water temp to 26.7C (80F), increase oxygenation to15 ppm DO Concentration and increase DO Saturation to 187% DO Supersaturation? This would be far better than "well-oxygenated." This would be called "Super-oxygenated" and a powerful fungal inhibitor. Imagine how this much oxygen might affect plants and Beneficial colonies.

Here’s a DO calculator to play with water temp, barometric pressure, ppm DO concentration and % DO Saturation. http://www.waterontheweb.org/under/waterquality/DOSatCalc.html

J
Click to expand...
So if allowing Res temps to get to mid seventies (at sea level) is there any reference material that would tell newbs how much air to add to the Res in say cfm that would ensure adequate air? I had a look at DO meters and there are a few cheap ones and lots of pricey ones lol. After researching this thing lots I have come to the conclusion that keeping my temps at 65 ensure a happy root system and plenty of growth. At that temp are beneficials even necessary? I guess it depends on the amount of DO in the water. I still don't get that I didn't have enough air when my roots were hanging in air for the most part lol. Honestly if you are watching your plants it's pretty obvious when root issues start by what the leaves are showing I think. Also I think guys that are running air pumps have issues getting the water to circulate in the middle of the root ball itself, leaving stagnate DO Depleted water to just sit in there. I actually have concentrated on building systems that don't require air stones and my present one is the one I started with and it seems to work very well. It uses basically a water fountain in the root chamber, shooting water at the lid causing a huge spread of sprayed water. The cycle is set for 15/15 but I have ran it 24/7 with good results as well. At 24/7 it never drains and roots are flooded all the time. Perhaps I'll try and raise temps incrementally on my next run and see where the most vigorous growth occurs, hard to believe it could get better :o
 
J

J Henry

Active Member
Budley Doright said:
So if allowing Res temps to get to mid seventies (at sea level) is there any reference material that would tell newbs how much air to add to the Res in say cfm that would ensure adequate air? I had a look at DO meters and there are a few cheap ones and lots of pricey ones lol. After researching this thing lots I have come to the conclusion that keeping my temps at 65 ensure a happy root system and plenty of growth. At that temp are beneficials even necessary? I guess it depends on the amount of DO in the water. I still don't get that I didn't have enough air when my roots were hanging in air for the most part lol. Honestly if you are watching your plants it's pretty obvious when root issues start by what the leaves are showing I think. Also I think guys that are running air pumps have issues getting the water to circulate in the middle of the root ball itself, leaving stagnate DO Depleted water to just sit in there. I actually have concentrated on building systems that don't require air stones and my present one is the one I started with and it seems to work very well. It uses basically a water fountain in the root chamber, shooting water at the lid causing a huge spread of sprayed water. The cycle is set for 15/15 but I have ran it 24/7 with good results as well. At 24/7 it never drains and roots are flooded all the time. Perhaps I'll try and raise temps incrementally on my next run and see where the most vigorous growth occurs, hard to believe it could get better :o
Click to expand...
Air and oxygen are two different gases. You can pump all the air you like, but keep in mind that it is vital to insure minimal safe oxygenation for the plant and microbial eco systems, the limiting factor of oxygenation using air is the low oxygen concentration (20% O2) in air? Really does not matter how much air you pump, you will never get more than 20% O2 whether you pump 5 cfm or 5000 cfm. Ask any doctor, RN or welder and they all know that air, aeration is no substitute for oxygen. Many people and mag writers really believe air and oxygen are the same gas.

Some say Beneficial’s are important, others say don’t waste the money. Everyone says safe nutrient DO levels are important in DWC, most say air and chilling the water will provide and guarantee all the oxygen necessary (safe-oxygenation). But very few farmers have ever tested the solution to actually see what the DO Sat really is. Most DWC farmers have absolutely no idea how to even test the DO Sat in their nutrient solution. Most totally rely on what a DO Chart predicts bases on water temperature. When the DO chart predicts and says water temp 68F, the water saturated with 9 ppm DO so keep the temp at 68F and expect there will be plenty of DO... to keep everything alive and healthy and then they really hope there will be no outbreak of the root rot fungi. And when and if the rot breaks out you can bet the DO was very low making oxygen conditions ideal for an outbreak. The fungal symptoms pop up, the crisis is clear and the race is on to try and kill the rot and salvage what ever is left or just trash it and start a new crop.

DO Test – this may work: http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=dissolved+oxygen+test+strips&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=82160079912&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8316780698129678292&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_715224upoa_b

Having enough oxygen is vital for all aerobic specie, oxygen must be available continuously in sufficient concentrations and volumes to satisfy the oxygen demand of the specie. Man… without a steady supply of enough oxygen… in 2 minutes, lips and nail beds turn blue, another 30 seconds pass, neck and belly turn blue, another 30 seconds, cellular brain damage begins, another minute or so - do not resuscitate because brain damage is severe. Without the O2 things turn to bad quickly.

“I still don't get that I didn't have enough air when my roots were hanging in air for the most part lol…” Plenty of air does not insure plenty of oxygen, air is not oxygen.

On observations… when you see the symptoms, it’s very late in the game, the crisis had already begun and the plant root tissue is necrotic (rotting).

Dissolved oxygen is transported to the roots in water. If water does not circulate through the roots, stagnation/DO depletion is the results and this happens quickly. One minute the DO may be safe, stagnations occurs, plants and microbes consume available DO and you know what happens next.

Air stones occlude, water fountains need water pumps, air stones need air pumps, chillers chill water and all have electrical and operational cost… as for oxygenation, it really makes no difference because the limiting oxygenating factor for air stones and fountains is the air itself.

Here’s an interesting piece written 6/2007:

Dissolved Oxygen, oh my - https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=75568

J
 
rkymtnman

rkymtnman

Well-Known Member
use bleach. chlorine will kill anything and everything and doesn't care what level of DO your nute solution is at. no need for a DO meter and to pump O2 into your res.
 
Budley Doright

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
J Henry said:
Air and oxygen are two different gases. You can pump all the air you like, but keep in mind that it is vital to insure minimal safe oxygenation for the plant and microbial eco systems, the limiting factor of oxygenation using air is the low oxygen concentration (20% O2) in air? Really does not matter how much air you pump, you will never get more than 20% O2 whether you pump 5 cfm or 5000 cfm. Ask any doctor, RN or welder and they all know that air, aeration is no substitute for oxygen. Many people and mag writers really believe air and oxygen are the same gas.

Some say Beneficial’s are important, others say don’t waste the money. Everyone says safe nutrient DO levels are important in DWC, most say air and chilling the water will provide and guarantee all the oxygen necessary (safe-oxygenation). But very few farmers have ever tested the solution to actually see what the DO Sat really is. Most DWC farmers have absolutely no idea how to even test the DO Sat in their nutrient solution. Most totally rely on what a DO Chart predicts bases on water temperature. When the DO chart predicts and says water temp 68F, the water saturated with 9 ppm DO so keep the temp at 68F and expect there will be plenty of DO... to keep everything alive and healthy and then they really hope there will be no outbreak of the root rot fungi. And when and if the rot breaks out you can bet the DO was very low making oxygen conditions ideal for an outbreak. The fungal symptoms pop up, the crisis is clear and the race is on to try and kill the rot and salvage what ever is left or just trash it and start a new crop.

DO Test – this may work: http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=dissolved+oxygen+test+strips&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=82160079912&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8316780698129678292&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_715224upoa_b

Having enough oxygen is vital for all aerobic specie, oxygen must be available continuously in sufficient concentrations and volumes to satisfy the oxygen demand of the specie. Man… without a steady supply of enough oxygen… in 2 minutes, lips and nail beds turn blue, another 30 seconds pass, neck and belly turn blue, another 30 seconds, cellular brain damage begins, another minute or so - do not resuscitate because brain damage is severe. Without the O2 things turn to bad quickly.

“I still don't get that I didn't have enough air when my roots were hanging in air for the most part lol…” Plenty of air does not insure plenty of oxygen, air is not oxygen.

On observations… when you see the symptoms, it’s very late in the game, the crisis had already begun and the plant root tissue is necrotic (rotting).

Dissolved oxygen is transported to the roots in water. If water does not circulate through the roots, stagnation/DO depletion is the results and this happens quickly. One minute the DO may be safe, stagnations occurs, plants and microbes consume available DO and you know what happens next.

Air stones occlude, water fountains need water pumps, air stones need air pumps, chillers chill water and all have electrical and operational cost… as for oxygenation, it really makes no difference because the limiting oxygenating factor for air stones and fountains is the air itself.

Here’s an interesting piece written 6/2007:

Dissolved Oxygen, oh my - https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=75568

J
Click to expand...
Very cool read! Thanks J starting to understand this better and yes lots of conflicting stuff out there nice to clarify as opposed to saying do this or that lol
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Budley Doright said:
Very cool read! Thanks J starting to understand this better and yes lots of conflicting stuff out there nice to clarify as opposed to saying do this or that lol
Click to expand...
I'm interested in hearing more about your root zone watering system. I don't like airstones either, and I run RDWC with active cooling.
 
Budley Doright

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
I'm interested in hearing more about your root zone watering system. I don't like airstones either, and I run RDWC with active cooling.
Click to expand...
I'll try to get a couple of pics tty. But basically it's the stacked tote setup with a 395 GPH pump in the lower tote (100L) when the pump is on it shoots a fountain of water into the upper tote that hits the lid and creates quite a bit of spray. There is a ebb and flow fitting to allow water to get 4"" deep. When pump shuts off water drains through flush pump outlet as well so no standing water. It's an ebb and flow with a powerful fill pump :). I've done variations of this setup since starting but still have root issues, can't stop those bastards lol. Again I'll get some pics tomorrow when I clean out the roots from the drain lol. I am retiring the spray nozzles, to many issues :(.
 
Budley Doright

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
Also tty thanks man!!! It was you that convinced me to finally get of the shitter and build a chiller, best thing I ever did, can't believe the difference in plant health. Thanks again!!
 
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