Bio Canna nutes and Soil questions.

foreverflyhi

foreverflyhi

Well-Known Member
from experience and advice from patients that grow with canna, they cant stress enough about water tempature. Not sure the exact degrees but it should be pretty cool.

Although i will never ever buy canna or any other nutrient line agian, canna is one of the few lines that i have seen decent results for a nutient bottle.
Still dont match up to true organics, feel me knockin? Well let me in!
 
hyroot

hyroot

Well-Known Member
bio canna (labeled vegan but not) was banned in the last year. about 4 years ago. customs would not allow canna terra plus soil to enter the u.s. because of the microbes in the soil.


canna coco, substra, terra, aqua, rhizotonic, pk 13/14, boost, and cannzyme are still available.
 
foreverflyhi

foreverflyhi

Well-Known Member
hyroot said:
bio canna was banned in the last year. about 4 years ago. customs would not allow canna soil to enter the u.s. because of the microbes in the soil.
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Right, heard something to do with customs. But once agian the nutrient line for coco and agua are still being sold here. Prices are unbelievable for this shhiiSTUFF
 
Mantriur

Mantriur

New Member
First of all: Sorry about the thread necromancy. :)

I'm curious: Has anyone ever tried to use BioCanna without additional supplements? I switched to BioCanna and have tried to diagnose a lethal problem. My plants are dead or dieing - all of them; they have been for months. I had plants in Veg for over 100 days which never grew bigger than 10 inches. None of the plants I have harvested lately had even one functioning leaf anymore.

I changed a lot about my grow during or before that problem, but now I'm down to the nutrients - I ruled out everything else. I started growing with zero clue, bagseeds, and random fertilizer and soil from the garden center on the window still. These plants looked flawless by comparison.

Has anyone ever attempted a grow with only BioCanna? Reading NightbirdX' post, I wonder what I actually paid for. Dirty water? I mean, that could be vegan ... :P I paid over $500 for this crap. If it really turns out that this destroyed a perfectly healthy grow, it would be outrageous. It's not like Canna tells you that their fertilizer lacks half of the stuff needed, because then only hardcore experts would even consider it.
 
AllenHaze

AllenHaze

Well-Known Member
NightbirdX said:
I stopped using humus in my soil because I was retaining too much water. I never did use it in a tea though, not a bad idea. :) What I want to know is does the Alaskan Forest Humus actually have humics and fulvics in it.
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Microbe man notes that in his experiments the use of humic acid in ACCT actually suppressed microbial life. He still advocates using it in mixes though. "that humic acid in varying dilutions does not feed any sort of microscopically visible microbe. I observed that it actually suppresses microbial division and growth. This was confirmed by joint testing with Keep It Simple Inc. (KIS) in the Seattle area. We tested two of the most effective and popular brands. I cannot say definitively that all brands of humic acid will have similar suppressive effects in a liquid (ACT) but it is enough for me to discontinue using it or recommending it as an ACT foodstock. Please note that this does not mean that it is not good to use on/in soil….just not ACT." :joint:
 
hyroot

hyroot

Well-Known Member
AllenHaze said:
Microbe man notes that in his experiments the use of humic acid in ACCT actually suppressed microbial life. He still advocates using it in mixes though. "that humic acid in varying dilutions does not feed any sort of microscopically visible microbe. I observed that it actually suppresses microbial division and growth. This was confirmed by joint testing with Keep It Simple Inc. (KIS) in the Seattle area. We tested two of the most effective and popular brands. I cannot say definitively that all brands of humic acid will have similar suppressive effects in a liquid (ACT) but it is enough for me to discontinue using it or recommending it as an ACT foodstock. Please note that this does not mean that it is not good to use on/in soil….just not ACT." :joint:
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there's humic in compost and castings.
 
AllenHaze

AllenHaze

Well-Known Member
hyroot said:
there's humic in compost and castings.
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There sure is. Don't shoot the messenger though ;-) He used only humic acid and not WC. Maybe there are other properties of the WC that work around the suppressive properties of the humic acid? It's on his site if you want to check it out. Microbeorganics.com :)
 
Pattahabi

Pattahabi

Well-Known Member
From Dr. Faust at Bioag:

Terminology of Humus-related Materials

Humus--product resulting from decay of organic matter. Contains both humic and non-humic material.

Humin--the alkali-insoluble fraction of leonardite. (The usage of this term does not correspond exactly with the usage by other workers.) .

Humic substances--(plural) the collective name for the acid radicals found in humic matter. Typically separated from humic matter by alkaline extraction.

Humic acid--(singular) the acid radical found in humic matter which is soluble in alkali but insoluble in acid, methyl ethyl ketone, and methyl alcohol.

Humate--the salts of humic acids, collectively, or the salts of humic acid specifically. (The usage must be determined from the context.)

Fulvic acid--the acid radical found in humic matter which is soluble in alkali, acid, methyl ethyl ketone, and methyl alcohol.

Fulvates--the salts of fulvic acid.

Leonardite--a soft brown coal-like deposit usually found in conjunction with deposits of lignite.

Lignite--a type of soft coal.

Humic acid is not a substitute for EWC/vermicompost.

P-
 
Pattahabi

Pattahabi

Well-Known Member
AllenHaze said:
There sure is. Don't shoot the messenger though ;-) He used only humic acid and not WC. Maybe there are other properties of the WC that work around the suppressive properties of the humic acid? It's on his site if you want to check it out. Microbeorganics.com :)
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MM ALWAYS uses ewc in his teas.
 
AllenHaze

AllenHaze

Well-Known Member
AllenHaze said:
Microbe man notes that in his experiments the use of humic acid [Not WC] in ACCT actually suppressed microbial life. He still advocates using it in mixes though. [The following quote is verbatim from his site] "that humic acid in varying dilutions does not feed any sort of microscopically visible microbe. I observed that it actually suppresses microbial division and growth. This was confirmed by joint testing with Keep It Simple Inc. (KIS) in the Seattle area. We tested two of the most effective and popular brands. I cannot say definitively that all brands of humic acid will have similar suppressive effects in a liquid (ACT) but it is enough for me to discontinue using it or recommending it as an ACT foodstock. Please note that this does not mean that it is not good to use on/in soil….just not ACT." :joint:
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:peace:

Nowhere did I say he doesn't use WC. I was referring to an experiment he did (jointly). This is why I think it is really important to read the whole post before replying to people. ;-)
 
Pattahabi

Pattahabi

Well-Known Member
AllenHaze said:
:peace:

Nowhere did I say he doesn't use WC. I was referring to an experiment he did (jointly). This is why I think it is really important to read the whole post before replying to people. ;-)
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So you are telling me in that experiment he used no ewc?

P-
 
AllenHaze

AllenHaze

Well-Known Member
Pattahabi said:
So you are telling me in that experiment he used no ewc?

P-
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Yea. I quote TW, "By testing some ingredients independently in a liquid I observed...."

Here is a short excerpt even though the site is public.


"By testing some ingredients independently in a liquid I observed;

1/ that humic acid in varying dilutions does not feed any sort of microscopically visible microbe. I observed that it actually suppresses microbial division and growth. This was confirmed by joint testing with Keep It Simple Inc. (KIS) in the Seattle area. We tested two of the most effective and popular brands. I cannot say definitively that all brands of humic acid will have similar suppressive effects in a liquid (ACT) but it is enough for me to discontinue using it or recommending it as an ACT foodstock. Please note that this does not mean that it is not good to use on/in soil….just not ACT.

2/ that kelp meal initially delays all microbial development in a liquid but does feed fungi and bacteria/archaea following 24 hours. If too much is used the effects are suppressive. From this I garnered that it should be used very sparingly and one must be prepared to brew a little longer if using this foodstock. Again, this does not mean that kelp meal is not a good thing to use in/on soil. It definitely is!

3/ black strap molasses (BSM) feeds both bacteria/archaea and fungi equally well contrary to what the A(A)CT aficionados were saying. The story was that BSM feeds only bacteria. This led to all sorts of misconceptions, even including ones made by USDA and Canada Agriculture scientists who declared that using molasses in ACT could lead to e-coli contamination. It is utter nonsense. Besides the testing I have done and ratifying assays carried out by KIS, it is common knowledge amongst many mycologists like Paul Stamets that BSM grows out fungal hyphae just fine.

4/ fish hydrolysate feeds both fungi and bacteria/archaea again contrary to the story at the time that it is mainly a fungal food. (I’m glad to see that story has now changed)

5/ alfalfa meal is also a decent all round foodstock which sometimes introduces protozoa cysts to the ACT. KIS has done more testing on this than I have."

Good stuff. This is where I started my organic journey. Microbe man + Heisenberg. :D :peace:
 
Pattahabi

Pattahabi

Well-Known Member
AllenHaze said:
Yea. I quote TW, "By testing some ingredients independently in a liquid I observed...."

Here is a short excerpt even though the site is public.


"By testing some ingredients independently in a liquid I observed;

1/ that humic acid in varying dilutions does not feed any sort of microscopically visible microbe. I observed that it actually suppresses microbial division and growth. This was confirmed by joint testing with Keep It Simple Inc. (KIS) in the Seattle area. We tested two of the most effective and popular brands. I cannot say definitively that all brands of humic acid will have similar suppressive effects in a liquid (ACT) but it is enough for me to discontinue using it or recommending it as an ACT foodstock. Please note that this does not mean that it is not good to use on/in soil….just not ACT.

2/ that kelp meal initially delays all microbial development in a liquid but does feed fungi and bacteria/archaea following 24 hours. If too much is used the effects are suppressive. From this I garnered that it should be used very sparingly and one must be prepared to brew a little longer if using this foodstock. Again, this does not mean that kelp meal is not a good thing to use in/on soil. It definitely is!

3/ black strap molasses (BSM) feeds both bacteria/archaea and fungi equally well contrary to what the A(A)CT aficionados were saying. The story was that BSM feeds only bacteria. This led to all sorts of misconceptions, even including ones made by USDA and Canada Agriculture scientists who declared that using molasses in ACT could lead to e-coli contamination. It is utter nonsense. Besides the testing I have done and ratifying assays carried out by KIS, it is common knowledge amongst many mycologists like Paul Stamets that BSM grows out fungal hyphae just fine.

4/ fish hydrolysate feeds both fungi and bacteria/archaea again contrary to the story at the time that it is mainly a fungal food. (I’m glad to see that story has now changed)

5/ alfalfa meal is also a decent all round foodstock which sometimes introduces protozoa cysts to the ACT. KIS has done more testing on this than I have."

Good stuff. This is where I started my organic journey. Microbe man + Heisenberg. :D :peace:
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All those were tested in an act... independently. Not solely, meaning by themselves. You need a source of microbes in order to do a microbe breeding experiment. Read the paragraphs before your bold statement.

Recipes and Technique;

In case I have not been clear enough above, our goal in making ACT is to extract, multiply and grow mostly aerobic microorganisms in as large a diversity as possible and inclusive of three basic groups; bacteria/archaea, protozoa [flagellates & naked amoebae] and fungi. (Some [vermi]compost will contain rotifers which are extracted into ACT. These cycle nutrients in similar fashion to protozoa and are a bonus if present.)

Making ACT is not about putting in ingredients which directly benefit the plants. The foodstocks used are strictly to feed or benefit the microorganisms which in turn benefit the plants.

When I jumped on the compost tea bandwagon years back I utilized the whole gambit of ingredients recommended by the current (at that time) supposed authorities. These ingredients or foodstocks included, humic acid, kelp meal, black strap molasses, baby oatmeal (oat flour), fish hydrolysate, alfalfa meal, etc. We used variations of these ingredients in our 1200 gallon ACT maker on our farm and microscopic observation showed success.

I also experimented with using some rock/clay powders as ingredients and observed differences in the microbial make up which had positive results applied to the soil and plants. The types used were mostly soft rock phosphate and pyrophyllite.

Along the line somewhere we left humic acid out of a brew and noticed an increase in microbial numbers so we stopped using it ourselves but, possibly irresponsibly, I continued to recommend it because the ‘bigwigs’ did so. It was not until I devised a method to test each foodstock independently that I began to change my tune and begin to go against the grain of the contemporary experts.
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P-
 
AllenHaze

AllenHaze

Well-Known Member
Pattahabi said:
All those were tested in an act... independently. Not solely, meaning by themselves. You need a source of microbes in order to do a microbe breeding experiment. Read the paragraphs before your bold statement.



P-
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It's an ACT. He could have used another type of inoculant. :peace:
 
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