Breeding store bought hybrids x store bought hybrids.. self them first ?or..cross them?

SchmoeJoe

SchmoeJoe

Well-Known Member
catatac said:
other than youv'e got seed and they aren't clones... which takes me to my next point
no duh. and who said i needed true breeding? thanks...
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As far as breeding goes selfing a plant is hardly any different than cloning because there's hardly any genetic variation. If your only interest is producing seed you're not using the term "breeding" properly.

As far as your second response if you already knew the answer to your own question then why did you ask it?
 
Serva

Serva

Well-Known Member
Do whatever you want, and love whoever you want. But for me, a child need a mother and a father! There will always occure problems otherwise... same for plants.

But what you wanna expect, if you stress a plant, letting her produce hormones, which she never wanted (similiar what happened to women in DDR sport history), letting her produce male sacks, with the same genetic information?

So actualy, a healthy genetic is defined by the gen pool of the parents being most diverse. But selfing is the opposite. So how should we get healthy genetic by selfing, when it‘s not possible, because of the maximum closed gen pool?

If you like breeding, out crossing and selecting seems to be the only way for me!
 
SchmoeJoe

SchmoeJoe

Well-Known Member
Serva said:
Do whatever you want, and love whoever you want. But for me, a child need a mother and a father! There will always occure problems otherwise... same for plants.

But what you wanna expect, if you stress a plant, letting her produce hormones, which she never wanted (similiar what happened to women in DDR sport history), letting her produce male sacks, with the same genetic information?

So actualy, a healthy genetic is defined by the gen pool of the parents being most diverse. But selfing is the opposite. So how should we get healthy genetic by selfing, when it‘s not possible, because of the maximum closed gen pool?

If you like to breeding, out crossing and selecting seems to be the only way for me!
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And open pollination, which is pretty much impossible, or at least completely impractical, when "selfing".
 
catatac

catatac

Member
SchmoeJoe said:
As far as breeding goes selfing a plant is hardly any different than cloning because there's hardly any genetic variation. If your only interest is producing seed you're not using the term "breeding" properly.

As far as your second response if you already knew the answer to your own question then why did you ask it?
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i don't think you understood the question.. and your no longer helpful is all . i suspect we have similar educations on the topic at hand, which is to say , not much at all... say i have a special clone... yada yada... there's a reason to self on occasion IM SURE!!! so just don't think your say so is the end all be all to me. the book i have sitting on my desk PUBLISHED!!! none the less says that many growers fail to cross or self the f1 missing the f2 phenotypes. i don't trust your opinion at all. your certainly not sheding light, but sounding very smart... I hate being a bitch and im probably grumpy about something else ... please forgive me and peace!
 
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SchmoeJoe

SchmoeJoe

Well-Known Member
catatac said:
i don't think you understood the question.. and your no longer helpful is all . i suspect we have similar educations on the topic at hand, which is to say , not much at all... say i have a special clone... yada yada... there's a reason to self on occasion IM SURE!!! so just don't think your say so is the end all be all to me.
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That would be producing seed and not breeding. It's clear that I have much more education on the subject than you and that you're beyond being helped here as it's obvious that you're not even capable of understanding a simple concept like the difference between propagating a particular plant and breeding.
 
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catatac

catatac

Member
SchmoeJoe said:
That would be producing seed and not breeding. It's clear that have much more education on the subject than you and that you're beyond being helped here as it's obvious that you're not even capable of understanding a simple concept like the difference between propagating a particular plant and breeding.
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honestly i think your an asshole . thanks for your help but by bye . only a dumb fuck like yourself would stick around in a thread like this ... thanks for your contribution which has been ZERO . have a nice life. and perfect avatar
 
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SchmoeJoe

SchmoeJoe

Well-Known Member
catatac said:
honestly i think your an asshole . thanks for your help but by bye . only a dumb fuck like yourself would stick around in a thread like this ... thanks for your contribution which has been ZERO . have a nice life
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I answered your questions and you came at me with condescension and sarcasm. I tried to keep it civil but you escalated your asshhole behavior so I told you exactly how I saw it. Selfing as a way to isolate and stabilize traits is a lazy short cut that will lead to inbreeding depression. Its only practical use is preserving clone only cultivars.

I don't care what your books say. You've already said a few things that show that you don't even fully understand the things you're talking about and all I tried to do is help clear those things up.

You should understand that people who ask for help with something and then respond to constructive criticism with name calling and the aforementioned condescension and sarcasm are far more often than not raging douchebags. You were right about one thing though. I'd have to be a dumbfuck to try to stick around and help someone like yourself.
 
catatac

catatac

Member
"i recall reading the the exploits of Sunsimilator over on THC Farmer, he reworking the Sour Diesel line. He claimed when the Sour was selfed, he could sort out all kinds of different phenotypes ranging from Chem all the way to the Mass Super Skunk."

if only he'd listened to the buffalo...
 
MichiganMedGrower

MichiganMedGrower

Well-Known Member
catatac said:
"i recall reading the the exploits of Sunsimilator over on THC Farmer, he reworking the Sour Diesel line. He claimed when the Sour was selfed, he could sort out all kinds of different phenotypes ranging from Chem all the way to the Mass Super Skunk."

if only he'd listened to the buffalo...
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I have nothing to do with the argument above but I do want to say I see varied phenos some very different from the mother when I plant s-1 seeds.

I got a pretty pure sour diesel plant from a Blue Lemon Thai self seed once. I ran it for a while. It was the real deal. Blue Lemon Thai is G-13, petrolia headstash, ECSD and Lemon Thai.

You can get all kinds of variations selfing. Look at the varied genetics involved.

Even the individual plants in the genetics are all hybrids.
 
catatac

catatac

Member
SchmoeJoe said:
I answered your questions and you came at me with condescension and sarcasm. I tried to keep it civil but you escalated your asshhole behavior so I told you exactly how I saw it. Selfing as a way to isolate and stabilize traits is a lazy short cut that will lead to inbreeding depression. Its only practical use is preserving clone only cultivars.

I don't care what your books say. You've already said a few things that show that you don't even fully understand the things you're talking about and all I tried to do is help clear those things up.

You should understand that people who ask for help with something and then respond to constructive criticism with name calling and the aforementioned condescension and sarcasm are far more often than not raging douchebags. You were right about one thing though. I'd have to be a dumbfuck to try to stick around and help someone like yourself.
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dear buffalo ... you have no idea what im thinking... or why im asking it seems to me. obviously we've both got wires crossed..just don't act like my superior and we should be just fine.
 
catatac

catatac

Member
MichiganMedGrower said:
I have nothing to do with the argument above but I do want to say I see varied phenos some very different from the mother when I plant s-1 seeds.

I got a pretty pure sour diesel plant from a Blue Lemon Thai self seed once. I ran it for a while. It was the real deal. Blue Lemon Thai is G-13, petrolia headstash, ECSD and Lemon Thai.

You can get all kinds of variations selfing. Look at the varied genetics involved.

Even the individual plants in the genetics are all hybrids.
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and the books agree.... its going to be a bit of a crap shoot on the selfed seeds but apparently its not a bad idea IMUO. all in all to avoid wasted time and space its probably better to just cross the clone to another hybrid for a new f1 and perhaps backcross to Mamma clone to stabilize inbreed at a later date? who knows. Im just about over it. thanks for the input sorry about the drama
 
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catatac

catatac

Member
interesting article https://www.indoordiary.com/genetics-to-backcross-recessive-traits/
Selfing Cannabis for Breeding
“Selfing” is the process of creating a seed by fertilizing a plant with pollen obtained from itself.

The result of selfing is a population that is derived from one parent, known as S1 then every generation after is S2, S3, etc.

With selfing plants their traits remain the same upon selfing.

The plants traits are homozygous and will remain homozygous when selfing, whereas a heterozygous plant will show differently and may reveal unique appearance of these characters.

Each self’ed generation leads to an increase in characteristics by 50%.

Repeated selfing or single-seed descent is the fastest way to achieve homozygosity with a group or family.

With plants grown from self’ed populations there is a better probability of finding self-progeny of all desired traits within a plant.

Single-seed descent is a plant that is self-fertilized and the resulting seeds are collected.

Each plant is self’ed, generation after generation, without any other plants other than itself and after six generations of selfing (S6) 98.44% of the genes are homozygous.

Recurrent selection is designed to concentrate the favorable genes by repeated cycles of selection for favorable traits so the first step is to identify superior genotypes for the trait that you are selecting.

Next, inter-mate the genotypes and then select the improved offspring then you repeat these two (2) steps over several generations.

Pedigree selection is individual plants that are selected in segregating generations from a cross on the basis of desirability or pedigree.
 
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Serva

Serva

Well-Known Member
So you gave yourself the answer, why selfing is bs. Homozygosity will express all the deleterious recessive alleles, and has nothing to do with normal healthy heterozygous genotypes...

catatac said:
can i ask some stupid questions? here goes.
lets say i have 4 different hybrids.. blueberry, white widow, jack herer, and critical mass... and one mystery plant. I plan to take copies/clones and "turn females male" with colloidal silver. so all breeding will be female plants.
AS MY FIRST STEP do i want to self all they hybrids to find f2 max diversity ? or do i want to cross the hybrids (, ie double cross ) like bb x ww and start selection from there? ... could i then cross my double crosses? for a total of 8 parents (bbXww) X (jhXcrit). and if i were to do that? why not just random polinate all 4 hybrids and mystery plant all at once... then selecting, crossing, backcrossing etc from there as i wish.. in other words why not just make a big pool and breed what you like from there?

back to the first question... i think the selfing should give a varied and diverse f2 generation worth looking at first.? and it depends on weather or not my strore bought hybrids are simple landrace crosses producing f1s or if theres been some further stabilization..i don't know about that. im guessing its just pure f1 with lots of variation waiting in the f2 . however as far as moving forward with nearly 100% "good seed" i should cross the crosses for best immediate results... i think i've got my answer... since i don't feel like doing lots of rare pheno hunting... and i should also not random polinate so as to avoid any f2 freaks on the weak side.

I think from a breeding stand point selfing of the f1 really should be done... to select for any really special traits before crossing to another line... so take just ww an f1 and self it for the f2 generation where you will find some special sparkling budha to cross with another sparkling budha from the same generation... breed on or backcross as desired... when you've got your stabilized white budha then cross it to your stabilized bb dudha and you've got"light blue duha" a new f1 hybrid. ?
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- You come here, to ask „stupid questions“ two times in a row now!
- Yesterday you thought already „I‘ve got my answer...“, which you gave yourself, while talking with yourself, I guess
- „from a breeding stand point“, today you tell us, it‘s not about breeding, though you had questions concerning this topic
- „selfing should give a varied and diverse f2 generation“, and today you act like a smart-aleck talking about S1 and homozygousity?
- „why not just make a big pool and breed what you like from there“? So you want to put into the mixer an apple, a pizza, some sausage, and a little milk. 60s should be enough, so it’s well blended, and than you will make some choclote, a banana, and a cheese fondue out of it?! Wtf...

I can take some flavour, water, tomatoes, cheese, and make a pizza out of it, but what you want to try.... yeah... you already stated it yourself, seems to be pretty „stupid“.

And maybe... when you don‘t want to hear other peoples opinion, don‘t post in a forum, and ASK people for there opinion, guess because you don‘t know anything about this topic, but really... act like a - I don‘t know - and just copy past the first link google gave you on selfing? Really?!
 
Observe & Report

Observe & Report

Well-Known Member
SchmoeJoe said:
As far as breeding goes selfing a plant is hardly any different than cloning because there's hardly any genetic variation.
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Cloning is cloning, the genetics are identical, but in selfing you still have meiosis, gametes, and gene assortment. The variation you get depends on how stable the genes are. Each heterozygous gene in the P1 has a 25% chance of coming up recessive in each S1 seed.
 
Serva

Serva

Well-Known Member
Observe & Report said:
Cloning is cloning, the genetics are identical, but in selfing you still have meiosis, gametes, and gene assortment. The variation you get depends on how stable the genes are. Each heterozygous gene in the P1 has a 25% chance of coming up recessive in each S1 seed.
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And exactly this is the problem to get a good cut, e.g. GG#4, as seeds. It‘s such a long way selecting generation for generation, and not just some random selfing!
 
catatac

catatac

Member
Serva said:
So you gave yourself the answer, why selfing is bs. Homozygosity will express all the deleterious recessive alleles, and has nothing to do with normal healthy heterozygous genotypes...



- You come here, to ask „stupid questions“ two times in a row now!
- Yesterday you thought already „I‘ve got my answer...“, which you gave yourself, while talking with yourself, I guess
- „from a breeding stand point“, today you tell us, it‘s not about breeding, though you had questions concerning this topic
- „selfing should give a varied and diverse f2 generation“, and today you act like a smart-aleck talking about S1 and homozygousity?
- „why not just make a big pool and breed what you like from there“? So you want to put into the mixer an apple, a pizza, some sausage, and a little milk. 60s should be enough, so it’s well blended, and than you will make some choclote, a banana, and a cheese fondue out of it?! Wtf...

I can take some flavour, water, tomatoes, cheese, and make a pizza out of it, but what you want to try.... yeah... you already stated it yourself, seems to be pretty „stupid“.

And maybe... when you don‘t want to hear other peoples opinion, don‘t post in a forum, and ASK people for there opinion, guess because you don‘t know anything about this topic, but really... act like a - I don‘t know - and just copy past the first link google gave you on selfing? Really?!
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whats with all the assholes? seriously.. if you got your toes stepped on Im sorry. yes i asked similar questions in different places. big whoop. and yes im working through this all , sometimes i work things out myself..which is all im really trying to do in the first place. if you feel the need to be a jerk just find a different thread. thanks also fuck you... who said i was looking for HOMOZYGOSITY? no one... i might have even said i was pheno hunting the s1 f2 generations..anyway fuck both you idiots who think you know something about me or what im asking or what i want to do... and most definitely don't think/act like your my master, or state your opinions as fact cuz ill toss your opionion in the fucking trash for sure. i've had plenty of conversations with jerks over the years and I spot them really quick now days. they wan't to yell down your throat and make you listen to them...well FUCK YOU . keep out of my thread bitchez
 
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catatac

catatac

Member
Serva said:
And exactly this is the problem to get a good cut, e.g. GG#4, as seeds. It‘s such a long way selecting generation for generation, and not just some random selfing!
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random selfing? tell me about that.. and i guess you could never select form the s1 plants either or cross , self or bx them..no couldnt't do that. well jewizz ill just wait for your book to hit the shelves. if only i was as bright as you
 
too larry

too larry

Well-Known Member
OP, I think those guys were just trying to help you out. Lots of RIU'ers still do that for noobs.

Since I'm just an unreformed pollen chunker, I will refrain from trying to offer advice. Good luck though. And welcome to RIU.

Start a thread over in the breed and seed section when you get this project going, and I will keep up with it.
 
catatac

catatac

Member
too larry said:
OP, I think those guys were just trying to help you out. Lots of RIU'ers still do that for noobs.

Since I'm just an unreformed pollen chunker, I will refrain from trying to offer advice. Good luck though. And welcome to RIU.

Start a thread over in the breed and seed section when you get this project going, and I will keep up with it.
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what do you think about selfing a plant.... lets say white widow. the entirety of that breeding project, as far as i know it is crossing a brazilian x sout indian .... giving a f1 white widow.... with good homogeneity. as buffalo joeschmoe thinks ...selfing is not going to express like an f2.. i wonder seriuosly about that.(in any case f2 could be reached by having two white widow mothers each from seed to sib cross and reach f2, right?)
anyhow... my thinking would be that lets say for a special clone... if i could self it and get a wide range of expression and find something say extra extra potent .... i could get pollen off that and cross it back to Momma for seed... and continue either crossing back selfing or inbreeding amongst sibs.. that would be one way to save MOST of the original clones genetics ...and get that special clone to seed ...roughly. or partially.
but all that considered the easiest way would be to cross the clone with another hybrid (white widow?) ..... that offspring will be relatively uniform and vigorous f1..... from there i can sib cross for the f2 and search out a nice pheno to back X or whatever. simplest way forward probably.
and yep Im pretty much answering my own questions..which is good im working it out. next i can test my theories and methods.. Science.
 
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too larry

too larry

Well-Known Member
I have never selfed a plant, nor have I grown any fem seeds. But from what I understand, when you self one, you will still get different phenos, just not the wide range you would get with male pollen.

The only way I know to breed is to pop lots of seeds, pick you winners and cross them. But then I'm not in a situation where I can keep clones. If you have the time and space to keep lots of clones going, you would want to flower out each plant, then pick the winners. {and breed with the clones you took earlier}

I can't offer advice on what kinds of crosses would be best. You will have to decide that. But it would be much easier if you introduced a male in the mix, so the seeds will be regular seeds. That way you could do all the crosses you wanted, then self the keeper when you find her if you want fem seeds.
 
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