Buds quality LEDs VS HPS

TacoMac said:

In the end, it can all be summed up quite easily:

LED is the future. They've made leaps and bounds over the last 4 years alone that have really, really brought the higher end LED fixtures into even par with HPS/Halide lighting.

But HPS/Halide lighting still has its strengths.

The argument of these two types of lighting is sort of the same argument between tube amp and solid state folks. The tube amp is the original, great sounding amplifier. Solid states are cheaper, but never had quite the warmth that tubes do.

That too is changing. Digital amp modeling is getting better and better every year. Probably in another 10 years time you'll be able to sit a emulator solid state costing 400 dollars next to a 1300 dollar Vox AC 30 and not hear a difference.

HPS/Halide vs LED is the same thing. The later will eventually overtake the former. It's the way of things and how we advance.

Click to expand...

The latter has already overtaken the former in every area but up front cost.

ttystikk said:

The latter has already overtaken the former in every area but up front cost.

Click to expand...

That's the point: The cost are prohibitive, making it not worth the investment for the quality you get.

Why buy a 250,000 dollar Ferrari when an 85,000 dollar Corvette will blow its doors off?

Until the pricing for the same performance becomes more equitable (at least equal), it's not worth it thus rendering it not as good.

ttystikk said:

The latter has already overtaken the former in every area but up front cost.

Click to expand...

That cost is very competitive these days. The economy of production of COBs with the advances in efficiency and now Boards and strips and simple diy options weigh heavily on cost. The exit of HPS is accelerating in all applications, not just growing. The only pink at my house is from a couple of red/white a51 panels still used when extra room is needed.

TacoMac said:

That's the point: The cost are prohibitive, making it not worth the investment for the quality you get.

Why buy a 250,000 dollar Ferrari when an 85,000 dollar Corvette will blow its doors off?

Until the pricing for the same performance becomes more equitable (at least equal), it's not worth it thus rendering it not as good.

Click to expand...

If you're only concerned with up-front cost, you're absolutely right. If you happen to be more concerned with ROI over a few years, well... In that case, I completely disagree with you.

ttystikk said:

Until recently, it has seemed like you didn't want to listen, just argue.

Click to expand...

You have done all the arguing. I have only posed facts and proof. If I state an opinion. I label as such.

People like you with investments in profitless agendas don’t listen to reason. They just keep restating their same point.

It’s only you and a few other “old” forum Growers arguing with me at all. I am in multiple conversations about growing all the time here. And on other forums.

Why would I stay if the things you keep saying about me were true. I’m not trying to be an internet star like you. Pretending to be someone I am not. You got mad at me for ruining your credibility. Those are your words.

How can that happen if you were correct? Sorry your “followers” heard the truth. Lol.

I’m not going to suddenly stop correcting all the myth and silliness.

When I show better results the “forum experts” who were never really that good at this get upset. Especially since I am challenging them for proof and direct answers.

I’m just bored. I have been out of my career dealing with health issues for almost a decade now.

What’s you’re problem?

i would like you to try an led because this is an hps vs led thread and

growing method environment plays a giant role<----

you would have enough heat because you have hps there too and

then you could actually have your own results instead of..well..not

hydro must be cheap where you are because as i mentioned i paid for my leds in hydro

savings in 6 months or so

and it s a good thing because i do not sell herb

Humple said:

If you're only concerned with up-front cost, you're absolutely right. If you happen to be more concerned with ROI over a few years, well... In that case, I completely disagree with you.

Click to expand...

And you would be wrong as far as personal growers are concerned.

At this stage of the game, HPS/MH is still cheaper.

At present, to get a quality LED (COB) that matches HPS performance cost about 3 times the amount up front. After that, your energy savings is only about 25%. So if you're a regular, small grower for personal use, it would take you about 12 years to break even.

Again, at this stage, it's simply not worth it.

OLD MOTHER SATIVA said:

i would like you to try an led because this is an hps vs led thread and

growing method environment plays a giant role<----

you would have enough heat because you have hps there too and

then you could actually have your own results instead of..well..not

hydro must be cheap where you are because as i mentioned i paid for my leds in hydro

savings in 6 months or so

and it s a good thing because i do not sell herb

Click to expand...

Not sure what you mean by hydro must be cheap in my area?

if hydro cost for you is what it is here...[expensive]

besides growing more per w and better healt

h i paid for my leds in hydro savings alone in under a year<-------------
.....ROI<----------

and simply could not afford to "wait for the better cheaper" etc incarnations you say you are waiting for..

hence" hydro must be cheap in your area"

OLD MOTHER SATIVA said:

if hydro cost for you is what it is here...[expensive]

besides growing more per w and better healt

h i paid for my leds in hydro savings alone in under a year<-------------
.....ROI<----------

and simply could not afford to "wait for the better cheaper" etc incarnations you say you are waiting for..

hence" hydro must be cheap in your area"

Click to expand...

Hydro = electric cost?

I spend less than 100 per month total grow budget including electric for about a pound perpetually every month. Sometimes quite a bit more.

My 1500-1800 watts total veg and bloom save me about $600 per winter on heating propane. And the air conditioning I run in summer I run regardless for us. The rooms share the house a/c.

Even with replacement bulbs factored in it would take a decade to pay back for the new lights.

I am not going to bother combining hps and led. That makes no sense. I don’t need a side by side. The argument about quality or yield is pointless. I understand the numbers.

And led fails sometimes too. And the fear of buying an $800-$1500 lamp or 2 and better tech coming out next year which will happen is too stressful for this old school guy.

So when I can buy a reasonably priced led lamp as effective as my hid now I likely will.

But I am not going to diy repurposed warehouse lights when real custom spectrums will be available.

Quantum boards have the right idea too. But the wrong colors. And not really a better spectrum than hps. And worse if I combine with cmh.

Sorry. Although not sure why I feel like I am disappointing you.

"Sorry. Although not sure why I feel like I am disappointing you."

>please do not assume this..that's hilarious..j

i pay 26Cents kwh here....i paid for my lights in hydro cost savings in less than a year

spectrum?

we are the ones figuring that out by growing..and it works better than hid per w..but i only have my own results...

This is a dead horse, let's stop beating it with the whip of opinions.

Points, condenser, bias-ply, drum brakes, generator, sealed beam, vacuum wipers and HPS.

Fax machine, modem, DVDs, CD writers, VHS and Betamax

OLD MOTHER SATIVA said:

"Sorry. Although not sure why I feel like I am disappointing you."

>please do not assume this..that's hilarious..j

i pay 26Cents kwh here....i paid for my lights inhydro cost savings inless than a year

spectrum?

we are the ones figuring that out by growing..and it works better than hid per w..but i only have my own results...

Click to expand...

I was kinda kidding there.

And I pay less than half that for electricity.

And I am figuring out spectrum by growing. But the university info I posted is completely accurate in practice.

Very thankful at $0.105 here average of billed amount including taxes and fees.

TacoMac said:

And you would be wrong as far as personal growers are concerned.

At this stage of the game, HPS/MH is still cheaper.

At present, to get a quality LED (COB) that matches HPS performance cost about 3 times the amount up front. After that, your energy savings is only about 25%. So if you're a regular, small grower for personal use, it would take you about 12 years to break even.

Again, at this stage, it's simply not worth it.

Click to expand...

Many would dispute that 25% figure, but for the sake of discussion, I'll go with that. Let's take a 600w HPS, which is probably the most popular HID wattage, and compare to an LED build. You can put a QB or strip build together for less than $1/watt. But let's be conservative and say our 450 watt LED build cost $500. Let's be generous and say you got into a 600w HID setup for $150, including ballast, reflector, and whatever cheap bulb you please (increase the cost if you're planning to run something higher-end). So at this point, the HID system costs about a third as much as the LED fixture. Now factor in that 25% energy savings figure, and add to that bulb replacement cost - what would you consider a fair estimate for bulb costs over the course of a year? I know many growers run their lamps until they see a noticeable drop-off in brightness, but at that point you've lost a lot of juice and won't be performing anywhere near optimum. How often do you change bulbs, and how much do you spend on each?

Humple said:

Many would dispute that 25% figure, but for the sake of discussion, I'll go with that. Let's take a 600w HPS, which is probably the most popular HID wattage, and compare to an LED build. You can put a QB or strip build together for less than $1/watt. But let's be conservative and say our 450 watt LED build cost $500. Let's be generous and say you got into a 600w HID setup for $150, including ballast, reflector, and whatever cheap bulb you please (increase the cost if you're planning to run something higher-end). So at this point, the HID system costs about a third as much as the LED fixture. Now factor in that 25% energy savings figure, and add to that bulb replacement cost - what would you consider a fair estimate for bulb costs over the course of a year? I know many growers run their lamps until they see a noticeable drop-off in brightness, but at that point you've lost a lot of juice and won't be performing anywhere near optimum. How often do you change bulbs, and how much do you spend on each?

Click to expand...

I ran the same numbers as you suggest and come up with about 8 years.

If I factor in the loss of heating propane savings and add in an electric heater to make up for the hid heat lost I would never recover anything really.

And I do use high line equipment and bulbs.

And I expect a complete reliable pre built lamp. I don’t want to build. And I am positive the lights you are suggesting will be old tech soon anyway.

MichiganMedGrower said:

I ran the same numbers as you suggest and come up with about 8 years.

If I factor in the loss of heating propane savings and add in an electric heater to make up for the hid heat lost I would never recover anything really.

And I do use high line equipment and bulbs.

And I expect a complete reliable pre built lamp. I don’t want to build. And I am positive the lights you are suggesting will be old tech soon anyway.

Click to expand...

I totally understand why HID is your best choice right now. Anyone who's using the waste-heat from their grow to supplement their home heating would be well-served to remain with HID. I've said it before.

However, I am a bit perplexed by your "old tech" argument. After all, HPS is old tech.

Edit: If we were to use more realistic figures for this comparison, that 8 year ROI estimate would be reduced even further. So I in no way consider HID a clear winner on the cost-front.

TacoMac said:

That's the point: The cost are prohibitive, making it not worth the investment for the quality you get.

Why buy a 250,000 dollar Ferrari when an 85,000 dollar Corvette will blow its doors off?

Until the pricing for the same performance becomes more equitable (at least equal), it's not worth it thus rendering it not as good.

Click to expand...

First, bad analogy; people buy Ferraris as status symbols, not to street race.

Second, you're completely ignoring the time value of money and return on investment; the LED lights cost less to operate and need less HVAC. Not only does that mean you're saving money by buying a smaller air conditioner but the money saved in operation continually adds up. Many times it covers the difference in cost within the first year- and then it continues saving for the entire life of the unit.

That savings should also factor in loss of lamp performance, lamp replacements and in the case of DE units, reflector replacement costs.

Up front cost is a minor part of the ultimate cost of ownership of lighting- unless you don't actually use it.