Building 3rd generation grow room, new advice.

I say 3rd generation because it will be my 3rd setup. I need some advice on which direction to go with it, but first, let me say a little about my previous setups.

The first, was pretty cheesy. CFLs, bathroom exhausts, and miracle grow, it slowly evolved into having a stanley blower and carbon filter. I learned a LOT from this grow. I learned to challenge accepted convention on things. Also, I learned how to fail at certain aspects of a grow. Kind of like when you tell your kids that the stove is hot, but hot seems like a word you made up because they haven't been burnt. After they have been burned once or twice they understand it. It was done with bag seed, ect ect. This gave me a good working knowledge of what I was trying to accomplish, what to look for with nutrient issues, what male and female look like(pictures dont ease the worried mind), and also it gave me hope that I could do this! I got around 3 ounces of pretty good bud. The plants looked awesome, even under cfls.

The current setup, I spent a few more dollars, I got a better carbon filter, and the specs are as below:

400w hps(ballast kit 55 bucks diy)
Euro 6" air cooled hood
I have 2 stanley blowers modded.
Hood hangs from chains and eye hooks.
10 gallon DWC tote with 2 plants in them(metal taped all over)
6" net pots
Rock Wool
Hydroton
I recently upgraded to a Sunleaves 900 gph air pump (I think thats what it was)
I also bought some Sunleaves air stones for 3$.(10x's better than the 3$ walmart ones)
The room it intakes from is cooled to 70 degrees, the room stays between 70-78 generally.
I use lucas formula/General Hydro Bloom and Micro.
I use epsom salts occassionally in the res.
My city water is around 100 ppm and when I add the nutes the PH is usually just about right, Ive never had and issues with algae/rott or anything like that, and I think its due to the small amount of chlorine in the city water. I dont think Chlorine would be any worse than peroxide in the res.

I use battery acid as a PH down. Its not dangerous, stupid, and doesn't have lead in it. They are all myths. Its not different than any other acid, and when diluted isn't dangerous at all. It wont burn you or anything. And its 6 bucks for like 20 gallons.

I have been getting 10-16 ounces a grow under the 400w lamp. White Widow and Master Kush. Well, the white widow isnt finished yet, but it looks great, I sampled it and it tastes great/got me zonked. Week or so left.


Im going towards my upgrade open for ideas.

Thats it for what Im currently doing, the next post will be my ideas/plans.

Alright!

Room: The first thing I have to decide is where/how big for the grow area. I initially decided to build a grow room about 4 foot x 8 foot. 4x4 being the grow area, and the rest being mother/clone/storage/entranceway. Then I started thinking, I have a 2 foot x 6 foot closet that would be much more discrete. It has a 4 foot opening for the door, and Im pretty sure I could make it light tight. Granted, its not much bigger than what Im using now, but its already built and I would just put two outward opening doors on it. It is also located in a very discrete place and it would be stealth. I am also open to any ideas of why a different sized custom built room would make sense. So here are my choices.
a) 2x6 stealth b) 4x8 c) other

Light: Normally this would only be a 600w vs 1000w challenge for me. However, I have a 400w air cooled hps, I also have about 25 400w metal halides (yes, 25) Which throws me, I am going to continue to use CFLs for vegging. That just makes sense to me, or perhaps T5s/fluros. However, I have the option of a 400w mh + 400w hps which would help with coverage and light height. Or adding a 600w hps and having a 400+600W hps. Or moving to 1000w. There are a lot of considerations in this for me. Should I go digital? Should I stay with a magnetic like my 400w. If I stayed with my 400w hps, I could perhaps get a second 400w hps and use CMH bulbs. I know the room controls it somewhat. In a 4x4 would the 1000w hps have to be moved up and down or would it just be stationary? I wouldn't mind having the light stationary for simplicity. Is the 600 strong enough to not be moved? I don't mind laying out 500 or so for lights, and I want to be happy with where I'm at for a long while after this upgrade. I am definately going air cooling.

Choices: a) 400w+600w b) 400w+400w (with cmh on hps) c) 400w+400w mh+hps d) 1000w hps

Next!

Ballast:

Digital vs Magnetic. I keep seeing people with digital ballasts burning out, is it really that bad? I have never noticed heat issues or noise with my magnetic ballast, nor any issue for that matter. If I save 5 dollars a month in electricity, the ballast will have to last 2 years to get me a return on my investment in any meaningful way. I have also heard digital ballasts are picky about bulbs.
Choices: a) digital b) magnetic

Bulbs:

Are bulbs really worth 100 dollars? I dont see me replacing a 100 dollar bulb every grow, but I will replace the 10 dollar generic hps 400w's like I have been using. Is the decision really Generic vs Grow light or is it brand vs brand vs brand? Is there that much of a difference between Agro and Hortilux for instance?
Choices: a) Generic b) Name Brand c) Specific brand

CO2:

To CO2 or not to CO2, that is the question! It seems that the cost of the CO2 would be somewhat offset by the lowered cooling costs. Im not sure Im advanced enough for this yet, however, Im always open for new things.
Choices a) yay b) nay

Controllers, PH, :

Does it make sense to use controllers and such? I have a SMS110 ph meter, a ph 600 milwaukee, and strips, the SMS110 could be used to control a ph drip and I could set that up pretty easy. I love this ph meter, it has an alarm and a 12v out when the alarm sets(to turn a pump on to drip ph down) My ph is at a glance already, I dont check PPM. Should I get a PPM meter, is that really going to improve me? I have one, but it only goes to 1000, so its essentially useless.
Choices: Open answers

Form:

I currently use DWC, and I like it. However, I would really like a external resevoir to make changing simpler. I think this is my weak point, I dont like to change out the rest in the DWC. I could set up a recirculating DWC pretty easily, and the whole system might cost me 100 at the most, using good totes and real bulkhead fittings. This would also let me check the res levels on lights down times. However, that puts me engineering a system. I could put that effort into a ebb and flow, drip, or nft system, I doubt the price would be much higher if at all. Dont get me wrong, I love my DWC, but I dont have experience with the others. I mostly worry about power outages killing me plants in the other ones. I cannot remember the last power outage I had though. I already have a air pump capable of running the entire setup DWC style with huge volume of bubbles.
Choices: a) DWC recirculating b) Ebb and Flow c)Drip d) NFT e)other

Doors:

This seems pretty simple, but I want it light proof. I could use external doors to do it, or inside doors with weather stripping and a mylar curtain(thats what I use now) I have been thinking about sliding glass doors though. Would that make it easy to get to the whole grow if I did one big chamber?
Choice: Any ideas?

Carbon Filters, Ozone, Ect:

I use a can 33 filter hooked to a stanley blower. I have been pretty happy with it. I may upgrade to a bigger filter though. The can 33 is plenty big enough for any of the areas Im suggesting though isn't it? I would like to exhaust into my attic eventually, I only didn't last time out of paranoia, but Im sure that costs me 30 bucks a month in AC costs recooling the hot air from the hood. I am going to seperate the hood cooling from the carbon filter, that way Im using outside air to cool and then exhausting into the attic. Im still perfectly happy blowing the 75 degree air from the grow thats being scrubbed into the adjoing room though, it seems like peace of mind knowing that if it does stink, Ill smell it before someone standing outside my house. That being said, I have been considering adding Ozone to the setup. The exhaust now vents into a hallway closet that is small. I put Ona blocks in there or other air fresheners, as much because I like to smell air freshener when I walk in as anything else. An ozone generator would kill any stray smell and keep my house fresh at the same time, right? I know ozone will kill you, but Im talking a unit made for use in buildings people live in. It doesnt have to run 24/7 and I gather that most of them run for like 5 minutes an hour or turn off and on on a schedule. This would be in addition to a carbon filter. I lean towards can brand due to known quality, but are there any other good brands?
Choices: Open Answers

I think thats it. Obviously I have been thinking this through pretty thoroughly, I understand the differences, but Im thinking of laying out some money, and I just want reassurance that everything will be ok. lol.

Other thoughts: I may do 2 flowering rooms possibly. I wont need to add a cloning area into the 2x6 closet if I use it, so I could split it into 2. So I can have a harvest every month (give or take), 2 different strains, or use one for comparison grows for the forum. I suppose using a 3x6 area and just hanging 2 600s without seperating the grows would do the same thing though, as long as they are on 12/12 being in the same room shouldnt affect them right? Unless a already in flower crop hermies and turns the newly flowering plants beside it into pregnant whores.

I appreciate you reading this, and I appreciate any help/direction you can give me.

I have decided on a 600w digital. I am going to spend the extra money and get the Lumatek instead of a generic brand ballast. I am also going with a much larger hood. (Big Kahuna) I figure its almost 3 x 2 1/2 feet in size, Ill have good light coverage in a 4x4 room. Im going to set the room up so adding CO2 will be easy, but Im going to do a run without it. Im using 36 gallon sterlite totes and I have a 66 gph pump I purchased (6 bucks at harbor freight). I also am going to make my own bulkhead fittings using the grey conduit at lowes and rubber gaskets. Im going to use flexible hosing between the buckets, just in case I have to move them. I can only see a solid connection getting broken. Im going to use 1/2" sized connections. Ill have pictures for it soon.

sucking us into the rabbit hole,,,,,,

Fan freaking tastic. And I mean that in all good ways Carthoris!

We fricking love this kind of build. Rock the hell on! You have a couple behind you that you learned from.

Let's have an "Attaboy" over this way fellow riu members. This ones bound to be in the tinker thinkers tank and lets give a hand when we can.

You done did the homework. Only a few things I'd veer from but the ph down ain't one of em. nice tinking mon,,,,, it's the lil' ol' bothersome trouble makers i see but no biggy.

This is time to shine! Do it your way. Just keep that brainpan sizzling.

We got an eye on this one. Subbed too. Shoot, I'll holler out and some friends will show. dere' som charp eyed
growers to lend da' support. Sorry, my rasta is kinda weak.

Nice approach this one has,
got me hook, line and sinker. ya stinker.

Stand the Hell by, Rep coming yer way.

Cool Waters.
No Light.

bb57^
mvf_

ftp

Thank you Boomer! I was kind of down that no one had replied honestly, I am really wanting this grow to be awesome, and I had reached the limit of my personal experience. There are definitely a lot of people in this forum that I learned from. I spend at least 40 hours a week reading posts and chatting in the room. I have never gotten this far into any hobby before, and I really love it. I hope to move from a leacher of information to someone who can help others.

On another note:

I sat down and really went over the ballasts a few minutes ago with the order page up and the digital ballast in my cart, and when it was in black and white in front of my eyes, I was surprised at what I found. Ill repost it here.

I started out trying to decide if I wanted a 600w digital vs magnetic. Ive been thinking on it for a week, and I thought I had decided digital. Then, being me, I ran through a list of pros and cons, and did a review of what is known for both of them. I realized I had written a lot, and so I thought I would share it with the forum.

Digitals COULD save you 5-10% energy, add 5% light, and reduce heat and noise. Im not sure if that is true, but we will accept it at face value for this post.

Im comparing 400 watters because most beginners use 400w first, and they are most likely to need someone to talk to them about how lights work. Things that are true for 400w's are more than likely true for other wattages one would assume.

If you DIY, a 400w ballast will be about 50 bucks. A prebuilt 400w magnetic light is about 120 bucks, and a 400w digital is 220, thats with reflectors ect.

100 dollar premium for digital.

These aren't arent, they are made for a single purpose, lighting up our rooms. Do we care if its the newest technology? I don't. So I am looking at it in a subjective way. Is the +'s of the digital worth 100 dollars, lets see.

Cost/Efficiency
Efficiency to me is how much light I get for 1$. Without going into the math part of it too deeply. A KWH(1000 watts of energy) costs about 10 cents from the power company. 400w magnetics use about 480w of energy to operate, so about 6000 watts a day, that 60 cents. 60(cents) x 30(days) = 18.00.
So, it costs about 20 bucks to run a 400w magnetic hps for the month. 5 percent of 20 dollars is 1 dollar. You will take about 100 months, lets say 8 years, to recoup your 100 dollars. I doubt the digital ballast would last that long, or that if you are still growing in 8 years you wont have moved up. Even if you add in the 5% increase in light, you are still going to use the ballast for 5 years or so before you break even. Even though it flies against what most of you would agree with, the very clear winner here is Magnetic.

Winner: Magnetic

Reliability
I don't think anyone argues that digital is more reliable than magnetic. It is simply a given. Kind of like a rock is harder than a piece of foam, noone who isn't retarded is going to argue that. Time has proven Magnetic reliability.

Winner: Magnetic

Heat
If you have a horrible time keeping your temps right, and you keep your ballast in your grow, then a digital could help you some. How much? Well, not as much as you might think, maybe 5% of total heat output. Sure the ballast is cooler, but the light is putting out 5% more, and thus will be hotter. 5% less energy is being used though, so you will have a net 5% less heat. If you have your ballasts remotely installed there is no benefit to the digital heatwise. The bulb is still hot, and possibly hotter using the digital due to more light being produced at the bulb. I have never noticed my 400w magnetic being a heat issue, but I have proper ventilation. That being said.

Winner: Digital

Noise
Any of you who have used a magnetic ballast, know the sound of it. However, just how loud is it? 2 feet from my 400w hps ballast with the door closed, I cannot hear it at all. Uninsulated walls, listening for it, and I cannot hear my grow at all. In fact, my air pump, exhaust fan, and my circulation fan are all louder than my magnetic ballast. Will you ever have your magnetic ballast running without your fans on? I really think the noise is a non issue, but the digitals win this.

Winner: Digital

Digital issues I didn't mention:
Some might have RF issues. IE: Maybe your TV/Radio or your Neighbors wont work. Its like broadcasting a radio signal that could cause a security concern.

Magnetic issues I didn't mention:
Heavy
Possible flickering. Ive never noticed this honestly, and I have looked for it.

Conclusion:
I believe I have changed my own mind about buying a digital. There is no difference in yields or quality of the crop, if your light works properly. The most important things to me are reliability and cost(both purchase and operating costs) I think I have shown that the efficiency(in dollars) of the digital ballast is mostly word play, and until the costs come down and the reliability comes up that they are not the right choice to make for most people. That hundred dollars from the initial purchase could easily be applied towards CO2, a nice inline fan, the electric bill, getting better meters/nutrients, or any number of grow items that may actually make a difference in how good your grow is. You wouldn't give the electric company 100 dollars cash today to lower your bill 2 dollars a month for the next 4-5 years, why would you give it to a digital ballast company? So, for the foreseeable future, in my opinion, Magnetic ballasts are the sweet spot in ballasts.

Overall winner:
Magnetic

^^^^ Carthoris. I have a counter point to offer but am too tired. Just did my rounds of filter exchanging and I'm pooped, popped and ready to flop.

I will say this, The Lumateks we have are far superior in OUR application. We still keep the old reliables but I can tell the heat signature on the Lumateks
is a lot lower. I'll take a reading with the infrared thermo and post it later. Huge difference in the same Lab. One of Madds experiments and I can't wait til I can get the other lumateks out of the box and hooked up. They do make a difference in our Labs.

I'll be back tomorrow to counter point with #'s. not ragging, just comparing.

We do appreciate your style though,,,,

bb57

Boomer, not having a digital onhand, do you think you can check the operating temp of the same bulb on the digital vs the magnetic when you swap the magnetics out for digitals? Im curious to see if that 5 percent more lumens is where the heat went that the ballast would normally generate, those watts have to be converted into something, right? Or basically if the heat just moved from the ballast to the bulb.

I don't have temp issues with my magnetic ballast, 400w, running cooler is a plus, but I dont think it would affect me very much in my situation (with my 400 in the closet). How many watts are you running?

Madds is about 2 miles ahead of that thought. He's keeping records of every aspect of this grow op.

It will be posted when it is definitive, broken down and the #'s presented by him. Like I said he's freaky nerd.

You'll have those #'s, just takes time.

bb57

Timeeeeee is on my side, yes it issss. I did change my mind and am going to get the magnetic, due to reliability and cost, but in 2 years, maybe they will be the same price. The info is still important to me, and I enjoy learning things. No hurry on it though.

Im waiting patiently for Lowes to open.

Does anyone have any overall grow room temp changes to report when going from Magnetic to Digital?

Cart

Carthoris said:

Thank you Boomer! I was kind of down that no one had replied honestly.

Click to expand...

Hi ya Carthoris

Welcome to Riu

Don't be downed by the lack of responce ... this is a busy place with lots of people checking in to different stuff 24/7 ... so its easy for a post to get lost in the whirlwind

Your more established than you know , Boomer is first class grower that has an attention to detail and is allways on hand to give good advice ... he's a bit errrmm batshit crazy ... but one hell of a guy ... you struck lucky getting his attention

It's clear you know what your doing and what you want , You have put in the work and you know your stuff ... That will be rewarded come harvest time .
Just wanted to stop in and say hi and let you know that people ARE watching , Keep up this thread as it will help others in need , I will just sit over in the corner and watch for a while

Good Luck man

+rep for a nice description of who and what you are about !

V

Carthoris said:

I started out trying to decide if I wanted a 600w digital vs magnetic. Ive been thinking on it for a week, and I thought I had decided digital. Then, being me, I ran through a list of pros and cons, and did a review of what is known for both of them. I realized I had written a lot, and so I thought I would share it with the forum.

Digitals COULD save you 5-10% energy, add 5% light, and reduce heat and noise. Im not sure if that is true, but we will accept it at face value for this post.

Im comparing 400 watters because most beginners use 400w first, and they are most likely to need someone to talk to them about how lights work. Things that are true for 400w's are more than likely true for other wattages one would assume.

If you DIY, a 400w ballast will be about 50 bucks. A prebuilt 400w magnetic light is about 120 bucks, and a 400w digital is 220, thats with reflectors ect.

100 dollar premium for digital.

These aren't arent, they are made for a single purpose, lighting up our rooms. Do we care if its the newest technology? I don't. So I am looking at it in a subjective way. Is the +'s of the digital worth 100 dollars, lets see.

Cost/Efficiency
Efficiency to me is how much light I get for 1$. Without going into the math part of it too deeply. A KWH(1000 watts of energy) costs about 10 cents from the power company. 400w magnetics use about 480w of energy to operate, so about 6000 watts a day, that 60 cents. 60(cents) x 30(days) = 18.00.
So, it costs about 20 bucks to run a 400w magnetic hps for the month. 5 percent of 20 dollars is 1 dollar. You will take about 100 months, lets say 8 years, to recoup your 100 dollars. I doubt the digital ballast would last that long, or that if you are still growing in 8 years you wont have moved up. Even if you add in the 5% increase in light, you are still going to use the ballast for 5 years or so before you break even. Even though it flies against what most of you would agree with, the very clear winner here is Magnetic.

Winner: Magnetic

Reliability
I don't think anyone argues that digital is more reliable than magnetic. It is simply a given. Kind of like a rock is harder than a piece of foam, noone who isn't retarded is going to argue that. Time has proven Magnetic reliability.

Winner: Magnetic

Heat
If you have a horrible time keeping your temps right, and you keep your ballast in your grow, then a digital could help you some. How much? Well, not as much as you might think, maybe 5% of total heat output. Sure the ballast is cooler, but the light is putting out 5% more, and thus will be hotter. 5% less energy is being used though, so you will have a net 5% less heat. If you have your ballasts remotely installed there is no benefit to the digital heatwise. The bulb is still hot, and possibly hotter using the digital due to more light being produced at the bulb. I have never noticed my 400w magnetic being a heat issue, but I have proper ventilation. That being said.

Winner: Digital

Noise
Any of you who have used a magnetic ballast, know the sound of it. However, just how loud is it? 2 feet from my 400w hps ballast with the door closed, I cannot hear it at all. Uninsulated walls, listening for it, and I cannot hear my grow at all. In fact, my air pump, exhaust fan, and my circulation fan are all louder than my magnetic ballast. Will you ever have your magnetic ballast running without your fans on? I really think the noise is a non issue, but the digitals win this.

Winner: Digital

Digital issues I didn't mention:
Some might have RF issues. IE: Maybe your TV/Radio or your Neighbors wont work. Its like broadcasting a radio signal that could cause a security concern.

Magnetic issues I didn't mention:
Heavy
Possible flickering. Ive never noticed this honestly, and I have looked for it.

Conclusion:
I believe I have changed my own mind about buying a digital. There is no difference in yields or quality of the crop, if your light works properly. The most important things to me are reliability and cost(both purchase and operating costs) I think I have shown that the efficiency(in dollars) of the digital ballast is mostly word play, and until the costs come down and the reliability comes up that they are not the right choice to make for most people. That hundred dollars from the initial purchase could easily be applied towards CO2, a nice inline fan, the electric bill, getting better meters/nutrients, or any number of grow items that may actually make a difference in how good your grow is. You wouldn't give the electric company 100 dollars cash today to lower your bill 2 dollars a month for the next 4-5 years, why would you give it to a digital ballast company? So, for the foreseeable future, in my opinion, Magnetic ballasts are the sweet spot in ballasts.

Overall winner:
Magnetic

Click to expand...

AWESOME Deduction

Some may disagree ... but thats freedom of choice for you

This is a great bit of wisdom that will help others

Yeah baby, here they come.

Vento! Glad yer here. This one has potential. We need to let him spread those wings and give a lil' ol boost once in a while.
Thanks for joining. Others will come. and quit that damn lying about me knowing what i do. But hey, the batshit part is right on and yer loved for that.

C-man, keep doing what yer doing. It's all good so far.

bb57

I'm not worried about dying any time soon, Ive all the time in the world. Im going to start a test to see if light interruptions cause hermies soon, does Madds have any ideas on this?

Ive actually started putting the grow together, here is where you can find it.

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/364226-my-3rd-grow-room-setup.html#post4602208