Butters' 400w SCROG Perpetual w/ Coco Hempy Style - Various Strains

(Butters) · Sep 18, 2009

Hash Lover said:
Hey Butters, about the clones. How long have they been in there and do they have any roots yet? You can give them a little bit of nutes right from the start. They are not a seedling and don't have the stuff in them to get them going. I don't use any gel or powder on the cuttings and have mostly 100% success rate. I make a week mix with a few different things and it works well. The nutes I use are the Foxfarm tiger bloom at 1/2 tsp per gallon. along with Superthrive, hydroguard (can't get that anymore, use a beneficial bacteria) and hygrozyme (or any other enzyme product). Yours looks like a micro nutrient deficiency. They can start to yellow when cloning but seem to start at the bottom not the top. The plant starts to use what it has available in it since it has little or no roots to feed it.

Hey Hash.

Those clones are about 2 weeks and they have roots (have for about 5 days now). Not massive roots mind you...but roots none the less.

I was figuring that the big bottom leaves would turn yellow too...not the top ones. Figured it would just happen cause the plant has to use energy stored in those big leaves to get the root growth going. That's why I'm a bit freaked about the top leaves being the yellow ones. :-?

Gonna transplant the clones into coco bucket tomorrow and try and get some order restored in there. :lol:

-Butters

ZEN MASTER · Sep 18, 2009

hey Butters how many nodes did you let that grow before you topped it. i'm thinking five maybe six nodes????????

Dr High · Sep 18, 2009

(Butters) said:
Weave'm eh?

.............................................................

Now that's a pretty clever idea. Have you seen any journals where people had done that?

Wonder what the effect would be? Totally different way to fill the screen...probably a fuller screen too (as it plays out in my imagination).

Oh great....now you've got my wheels turning again Doc! I'm really liking that idea.

She's almost a week into flower so it's probably not a good idea to try this now. But be weaving her from the get'go in veg, I imagine that I could have an (almost) entirely horizontal plant grow. I definitely have to search around to see if others have done this. Haven't come across it yet.

-Butters

Just an idea i had for a Scrog one time.. yeah if its a week in flower. no can do =(

Katatawnic · Sep 20, 2009

(Butters) said:
...I'm a bit of a lazy grower. I found myself complaining a bit this morning (to myself) while all I was doing was bending down to pull some colas into different areas of the screen.

Meanwhile, I see Kat tying down like 20 limbs of her plants per day and Zen making veg lights outta shoe boxes and shit.

Yeah, well you don't hear me complaining during and moaning about it after, or see me hunched over and limping the rest of the day. :lol:

I broke down and lollipopped my girls last night, as there still wasn't enough air circulation down there and lots of leaves were dropping dead; and that was just as much work as tying down 20 or so limbs! I'm really glad now that I've been trimming my NLs in veg while I tie each branch. It'll save me big jobs to do later on. I really am a lazy grower, always looking for the easiest way to do everything! :hump:

In the meantime, given my laziness, I should stick with the coco. It's half the work of hydro and hasn't been any problem for me. Time to get more of those 3 gallon paint buckets.

Forgot to mention before that I also got coco two weeks ago, and transplanted my Blue Hash clone and White Widow into that. So far I'm loving it, and can't imagine ever going back to hydro now! (My laziness factor is why. LOL) Also doing a side-by-side of cuttings right now: half in rockwool and half in coco. Wanna see which is more effective.

allybam · Sep 20, 2009

I noticed at the start of the thread ya were on about trying to keep the rh down low and ya were veging, correct me if im wrong but ya want 70 80% rh during veg and 30 40% rh for flowering cause thats what every thing else ive ever read says.
And the main reason for lowering it in flowering is 1 to stop mold on buds and 2 it gives ya more compact buds rather than airy buds

(Butters) · Sep 20, 2009

ZEN MASTER said:
hey Butters how many nodes did you let that grow before you topped it. i'm thinking five maybe six nodes????????

I never actually topped this lady. The scrog essentially created that effect for me. I had originally planned on fim'ing her but wanted to get the basic screen technique down first...... :roll:

......well that and I'm a lazy fuc :lol:

Katatawnic said:
Forgot to mention before that I also got coco two weeks ago, and transplanted my Blue Hash clone and White Widow into that. So far I'm loving it, and can't imagine ever going back to hydro now! (My laziness factor is why. LOL) Also doing a side-by-side of cuttings right now: half in rockwool and half in coco. Wanna see which is more effective.

Sweet. You're gonna fall in love with the coco Kat. This stuff is just sooooo easy. I'm definitely interested in seeing the results of the comparison you're running. The rockwool is a cheaper option though I guess but it certainly makes sense to keep all the systems coco if possible. :mrgreen:

allybam said:
I noticed at the start of the thread ya were on about trying to keep the rh down low and ya were veging, correct me if im wrong but ya want 70 80% rh during veg and 30 40% rh for flowering cause thats what every thing else ive ever read says.
And the main reason for lowering it in flowering is 1 to stop mold on buds and 2 it gives ya more compact buds rather than airy buds

Yeah. The high rh isn't the end of the world in veg. The problem I encountered was the mold growth given that high humidity. The coco is a bit of a mold magnet. But the flowering does need to be between 40%-60%. Any lower/higher and yield and quality suffers.

Fortunately, I'm coming to the time of the year where getting humidity UP to 40% will now be a problem. :lol:

Holy Shit! I finally just figured out the multi-quote thing. :mrgreen:

...

...

Pics coming in a bit.

-Butters :bigjoint:

(Butters) · Sep 20, 2009

Here's this weeks pics.

Pics 1-4) The newly transplanted clones. They still don't look so great. That yellowing is still there and the tips of the leaves are a bit wilted looking and brownish.

I put them into the 2 gallon coco-hempy buckets yesterday. Gave them some light nutes in there as well. Even added CalMag which I picked up on Friday. :mrgreen:

I'm hoping to see an improvment in their color recovery this week now that they're in coco.....ah....nice ph stable coco. Humidity has dropped below 40 in there though. Probably just a fluke so I'll see if it gets up there on its own before I go breaking out my humidifier. But the 83 degrees in there seems to be okay for the time being. Most of the time, the temp is closer to 77. :blsmoke:

That last pic is a close-up of that yellowing. Still not sure what this is but I'm hoping that the addition of the Canna Coco A+B will clear this up.

Pics 5-7) 8 Days of Flower

It's really quite a messy scrog in there. :lol:

Rather uneven. I'm still pulling branches through holes each day but most are getting pulled towards the outside of the screen, hence the lack of filled screen in the middle. As you can see, I'm starting to run out of room on that screen (the plant is getting wider than the screen). Some branches are a couple 'o inches above the screen, while others are barely touching it. :-(

That 7th pic shows what a mess it is under that screen. Old and dying leaves that probably aren't getting too much light. These were the ones that looked nute-burned to me. I'll have to do some lollipopping under there to clear things up and get some better air circulation down there.

Not shown are these gnats that I am noticing in there. It doesn't appear that they have been doing any harm. I believe that they are enjoying using the wet run-off tray beneath the bucket for their offspring to hatch. It really is a perfect condition in there. 80f with 43% humidity....for 12 hours a day. I'll have to look into getting those No Pest Strips. Haven't found them in any stores yet though. May just have to order online.

That's all for today folks. Thanks for checking in! :peace:

-Butters

Hash Lover · Sep 20, 2009

Hey Butters, the gnats lay their eggs in the medium and that's where the larvae live also. I've tried the No Pest strip with out much luck. Gnatrol has been the best thing I have used for them so far. I didn't even use as much as they say and it knocked them down considerably in a little over a week. I made up a spray bottle and would spray the top of the soil or medium pretty good and then water as usual. The sticky traps were good also, can give you a good idea of how bad they are and catch the adults and kep them from laying more eggs. I don't think they are much of a problem unless you get to many of them. Check out this problem chart. It is the best one that I have found. You might see your yellowing problem in there under micro nute deficiency. But the nutes you added should take care of it. http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=11688

Katatawnic · Sep 20, 2009

(Butters) said:
Sweet. You're gonna fall in love with the coco Kat. This stuff is just sooooo easy. I'm definitely interested in seeing the results of the comparison you're running. The rockwool is a cheaper option though I guess but it certainly makes sense to keep all the systems coco if possible.

I should have clarified.... the cuttings are in 16 oz. plastic cups filled with coco. So when they take root, they'll remain right in there until it's time to move them into larger containers. Want not, waste not! :blsmoke:

I'll definitely update the progress of the cuttings in coco vs. rockwool in my GJ. Now, all but the ones I took last night from the larger of my two NLs in veg were cut while in flower, so they're going to take longer to take root. I've read (on ICMAG, if I remember correctly; I'll check my few subbed threads there :lol:

) that taking cuttings up to the 3rd week of flower works great, especially if you don't want to and/or don't have the room (which I really don't) etc., to keep mothers; that by the time it takes root and vegges to the desired size, it's just about time to harvest again and move them into the flowering chamber. (I'm definitely going perpetual; just checking my options for the easiest way to do it.) They were all shoots from my lollipopping session night before last, so I figured I'd test this theory for myself rather than just tossing them into the waste basket. Again: want not, waste not! :mrgreen:

The high rh isn't the end of the world in veg. The problem I encountered was the mold growth given that high humidity. The coco is a bit of a mold magnet.

I hadn't heard/read that yet! Aside from humidity control, are there other known precautions to take for this?

But the flowering does need to be between 40%-60%. Any lower/higher and yield and quality suffers.

Yeah, I've read many times that for veg optimal RH is 60-70%, for flower is 40-60%, and that a good balance is to keep it between 50% & 60% for both growth stages if one is able to keep a steady RH throughout the grow.

Holy Shit! I finally just figured out the multi-quote thing. ......

Please let me in on this closely kept secret?!?!?

(Butters) said:
Pics 1-4) The newly transplanted clones. They still don't look so great. That yellowing is still there and the tips of the leaves are a bit wilted looking and brownish.

That happened with some clones I had in March. Once they had a dose of good nutes, they recovered beautifully within a week, if not sooner. I'm sure they'll be just fine in no time.

If you haven't seen it yet, my GJ shows how badly yellowed my plants were in late July, after the pythium battle. I'd trimmed down and/or off all of the yellow leaves, so that I could more easily monitor the progress; within a week or so, no one would ever have known that there'd been a serious problem in there. :hump:

Pics 5-7) 8 Days of Flower

As you can see, I'm starting to run out of room on that screen (the plant is getting wider than the screen). Some branches are a couple 'o inches above the screen, while others are barely touching it.

How about twistie ties? :mrgreen:

I remember someone saying in an earlier post that it's too late to weave them now, but tying down the taller ones shouldn't do a bit of harm; I can only see good coming of it.

That 7th pic shows what a mess it is under that screen. Old and dying leaves that probably aren't getting too much light. These were the ones that looked nute-burned to me. I'll have to do some lollipopping under there to clear things up and get some better air circulation down there.

That's nothing compared to the mess mine had! :lol:

I finally broke down and lollipopped night before last; not only were the lower leaves dying and dropping like flies, but it was bloody hell to water as well; so difficult to get in there that it put way too much stress on my neck, shoulders, arms, and back. :roll:

It really broke my heart to remove so many shoots that had buds on them, and I felt like I should be apologizing to my girls all the while. But all the branches/shoots I pruned were indeed going to be little popcorn buds, and the "Lollipop Enthusiasts" insist that removing these increases overall yield; namely in the larger and higher quality buds. I don't have any personal comparison to go by of course, so I'm trusting these people. (MBlaze and GypsyBush are two big proponents of this, both to eliminate the mess and to increase yield.) I've got photos of the mess from a few days ago, and plan on taking photos of the newly neat plants tonight after the lights are on again.

Not shown are these gnats that I am noticing in there. [....] I'll have to look into getting those No Pest Strips. Haven't found them in any stores yet though. May just have to order online.

I've only seen a scant few in my grow spaces, but still have considered getting those strips. The $1+ store next door to me always has them, and I believe that'll be my next purchase. Better safe than sorry, eh? :bigjoint:

Check the "cheapie" stores, as a lot of lower income people get those instead of using more expensive pest control methods.

EDIT: It wasn't on ICMAG. I saved the OP to an HTML file in my "notes" folder. The URL, if interested, is: What is a Flowering Clone? :hump:

ZEN MASTER · Sep 21, 2009

Katatawnic said:
I should have clarified.... the cuttings are in 16 oz. plastic cups filled with coco. So when they take root, they'll remain right in there until it's time to move them into larger containers. Want not, waste not! I'll definitely update the progress of the cuttings in coco vs. rockwool in my GJ.

hey kat, what up? i say either one is excellent .#1 in coco i use the smaller dixie cup i think they are like 10 or 12 ounces. that way i ge a more compact and developed root system when i get ready to transplant to a bigger pot for veg.#2 it just so happens though that in my journal this time around i tried starting my clones in rockwool. the only thing i didn't like was that the AC had the air in the house extra dry, and the change in humidity from the dome to the air in the room made them wilt a little. but other than that it was great. i mean you can really see the difference in how the plants look stronger when you start the root system at the top of your pot and the roots grow down branching out,as they follow the nutes, possilbly utilizing the entire bucket of coco, as opposed to when you use the dixie cup an start your root system in the middlle of the pot and the roots have to branch out sideways and up(if possible) to fill the container. also i noticed that the pots started with dixie cups were a lot more root bound at the bottom of the pot rather than pretty much all around with the rock wool. either way is excellent though.btw check out my journal, i don't think i've given you an invite yet, but you are more than welcome. btw i noticed you said that you were growing some NL's well i just happen to luck up on both the sativa and indica pheno in my grow. real good pics of them on post #81.

PEACE!!!
-ZEN-

ZEN MASTER · Sep 21, 2009

hey Butters. wow man that looks great. i bet when that thing starts busting out flowers its going to look amazing. i wish i could get some of this to you so you could see what you working with in that screen. i just hope when i set mine up it can look as good as what you got there, kudos. as far as the gnats, i've noticed that when the humidity is down they may or may not come around but they really are not an issue. but when it is up they do hang around, but still i have never noticed any crop damage from them, and they pretty much stay localized to the area. although i would not be opposed to anyone wanting to eliminate them, but sadly i don't know how. but here is something to think about, since the pesticide can eruption, i haven't seen any. with that being said, i will probably try it again with the corrcet dispenser. i'll give you the info on that tomorrow. till then be easy my friend.

PEACE!!!
-ZEN-

ZEN MASTER · Sep 21, 2009

HEY Kat my apologies i was going through my thread and i noticed that you had stopped by. my bad that's just my BDS(Brain Dead Syndrome) kicking in. got some more pics up.

PEACE!!!
-ZEN-

(Butters) · Sep 21, 2009

The leafs on the clones are sagging quite a bit. They're not looking good. :sad:

I hope they can recover....or I'll be without this strain for future grows. :cuss:

I'll try and get pics up tomorrow to show.

-Butters :bigjoint:

ZEN MASTER · Sep 21, 2009

ok Butters, you do know that you can still take some clones from your plant. it hasn't even been two weeks flowering yet, you still have alot of time. so gone an cut one or two off. all those tpos i saw you probably won't even miss it. just my opinion though.

PEACE!!!
-ZEN-

(Butters) · Sep 21, 2009

Yeah. I was kinda thinking that too. Could probably easily chop one or 2 of the smaller tops and clone it in the aerogarden. One of the clones looks more dire than the other. I believe it's the one that didn't have much of a root system. It's small, leaning, and wilting a bit. But then again, the plant should experience some shock from this transplant. It's gone from a medium that has nothing but a constant supply of usable water to this strange new medium that doesn't give it all the water it needs when it wants it sometimes. :twisted:

Is there any feeding mixture to use on clones that helps the roots develop? I've seen this type of stuff a bunch of times but wasn't sure if any product in particular has a great reputation. :confused:

I just put the 150w HPS over these clones now. Worked wonders for the original mother in her growth. Temps rose to about 85f and humidity is steady at 40%. I'll be happy as long as I get 1 clone to make it out of this Blue Venom strain.

If the little one dies, I can just germ a White Widow seed and keep a perpetual 2-strain grow going. :blsmoke:

That being said, I need to be patient before calling time of death. My giant LR2 plant appeared dead for 3 weeks very early on and still came back to life (E.T. style :lol:

).

Somehow, :leaf:

finds ways to survive.

-Butters :bigjoint:

(Butters) · Sep 22, 2009

Okay. Here are some pics. First, with the good news....

Pics 1-3) Finally got a "lights off" shot of the flowering one. Canopy is uneven as all hell but man is she one good looking lady. :weed:

No problems with coloring or anything. There are some pistols shooting out but this process has clearly only just started.

As you can see, keeping that canopy even is going to be incredibly difficult for me this go around. She was just too big in veg before I flowered. Complicates a scrog when you run out of room on the screen. :dunce:

And now for the not so good news....

Pic4) This is the healthier of the 2 clones. The yellowing at the top really hasn't changed much. It's the drooping of the leaves that has changed since it's original hydro-upbringing. But basically, she has looked the same for the past 2 days. Certainly healthier than....

Pic 5)...this one. This is the one that I'm most worried about. As you can see, the sagging of the leaves is more pronounced in this clone. Likewise, the yellowing has spread to even the bottom leaf (especially that one leaf). I am silently praying that the plant is doing this to redistribute it's energy to make more roots. If that's the case, it's just a waiting game until the roots can serve their biological purpose and start feeding the leafs (and not vice versa).

As you can see from both of those pics, humidity is up to 60% (no idea why the sudden jump from the switch to HPS). Temps are high between 82f-86f today but within allowable limits I think.

Ugh.....waiting waiting waiting....I hate that part. :cuss:

Just to share in my experience in researching cloning problems. Read one thread, someone will say that the problem is overwatering and they'll be correct. Read the very next thread in line, someone will say that the same symptom is a result of underwatering and they'll be right. Wonder how one manages this balance with clones. Too much water, and the roots won't have need to grow and search for more. Too little water, and the clones can't get the necessary nutrients to feed the rest of the plant to keep it alive and healthy. Wonder which situation my clones are in? :roll:

Thanks for checking in all.

-Butters :bigjoint:

kellykapoor · Sep 23, 2009

subscriber-ed.

havent had a chance to read it yet but I'm sure its great!!

ZEN MASTER · Sep 23, 2009

what up Butters. hey man i'm gone qoute you a couple of times here ok." It's gone from a medium that has nothing but a constant supply of usable water to this strange new medium that doesn't give it all the water it needs when it wants it sometimes." :twisted:

thats not true in actuality the coco gives it to the plant when the plant wants it, also(now you may want to look this up to get the exacts) becauseof the way the N-P-K bonds, and is released by the coco, when mixed properly it releases the exact amount of which ever(N-P-K) is needed.

Is there any feeding mixture to use on clones that helps the roots develop?
i dont mean to gush, but you have the best thing going right there dude. just get you a small dixie cup, put some coco in it, get you a liter bottle, fill it up halfway with water and put .25 tsp of A, shake it up, then put some more water just about to the top, add put a .25 tsp of B, shake it up and let it sit. after that put that clone about an inch deep in the coco and while you hold it straight, water it till you get a drain. and the coco will settle around the stem and hold it in place. and put it under your lights.
now if that don't work then i got some serious egg on my face because that's how i do mine.

PEACE!!!
-ZEN-

madazz · Sep 23, 2009

butters i love it!! love looking over new journals, hey i need u to explain something to me, how in the world do i multi quote? been tyring to work that shit out for ages!

in the US i guess the water is treated quiet a bit my water is really good i only got a truncheon so its only giving 0.2 as the lowest reading and that light doesn't flash so its obviously lower than that. need a digi one to get the real reading. whats the average ppm of the water u guys use ?

madazz :weed:

(Butters) · Sep 23, 2009

kellykapoor said:
subscriber-ed.

havent had a chance to read it yet but I'm sure its great!!

Welcome aboard kellykapoor. Warning! I'm about to change the name of my thread to Butter's 400w Uneven SCROG eventually Perpetual w/ Coco Hempy Style and Some Cloning In Hydro. :lol:

And don't worry, I'm not one of those "read the whole journal before asking questions" type. Ask/Comment away whenever. :mrgreen:

ZEN MASTER said:
what up

Is there any feeding mixture to use on clones that helps the roots develop?
i dont mean to gush, but you have the best thing going right there dude. just get you a small dixie cup, put some coco in it, get you a liter bottle, fill it up halfway with water and put .25 tsp of A, shake it up, then put some more water just about to the top, add put a .25 tsp of B, shake it up and let it sit. after that put that clone about an inch deep in the coco and while you hold it straight, water it till you get a drain. and the coco will settle around the stem and hold it in place. and put it under your lights.
now if that don't work then i got some serious egg on my face because that's how i do mine.

PEACE!!!
-ZEN-

Funny Zen. I was just reading the page in your journal where you were describing your cloning technique with the coco. :mrgreen:

I'm gonna have to give that a try and see which I like better. So far, the way I did it is just making me worry. :-?

madazz said:
butters i love it!! love looking over new journals, hey i need u to explain something to me, how in the world do i multi quote? been tyring to work that shit out for ages!

in the US i guess the water is treated quiet a bit my water is really good i only got a truncheon so its only giving 0.2 as the lowest reading and that light doesn't flash so its obviously lower than that. need a digi one to get the real reading. whats the average ppm of the water u guys use ?

madazz

Yes! Another member that didn't know how to multiquote. I've been on here for a while and had no idea until last week. I'd just hit the "multi" button and nothing would happen. :lol:

I didn't want to look like an ass and ask anyone.

So, when you find a post that you want to quote, you hit multi (and not much really happens). Keep doing this for each post that you want to quote until you hit the LAST post that you want to quote. On that last post that you're looking to quote, just hit the regular old "quote" button and it sends you to the Go Advanced reply field with all of the posts that you multi-qouted in the text field. :clap:

The ppm in my area isn't all that bad. It's consistently 80ppm. But it's SO damn ph unstable. Just wants to keep shooting up past 6.8. I got too used to using strictly distilled h2o in my last grow with hydro. Nowhere near as difficult to maintain pH with distilled water.

Welcome aboard!

-Butters :bigjoint:

Butters' 400w SCROG Perpetual w/ Coco Hempy Style - Various Strains

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