cal-mag deficiencies or something else?

On the wikipedia page for chelation:

"In nature:

Virtually all biochemicals exhibit the ability to dissolve certain metal cations. Thus, proteins, polysaccharides, and polynucleic acids are excellent polydentate ligands for many metal ions. Organic compounds such as the amino acids glutamic acid and histidine, organic diacids such as malate, and polypeptides such as phytochelatin are also typical chelators. In addition to these adventitious chelators, several biomolecules are specifically produced to bind certain metals (see next section).[SUP][5][/SUP][SUP][6][/SUP][SUP][7][/SUP][SUP][8]"[/SUP]

"Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid, widely abbreviated as EDTA (for other names, see Table), is a polyamino carboxylic acid and a colourless, water-soluble solid. Its conjugate base is named ethylenediaminetetraacetate. It is widely used to dissolve limescale. Its usefulness arises because of its role as a hexadentate ("six-toothed") ligand and chelating agent, i.e. its ability to "sequester" metal ions such as Ca[SUP]2+[/SUP] and Fe[SUP]3+[/SUP]. After being bound by EDTA, metal ions remain in solution but exhibit diminished reactivity. EDTA is produced as several salts, notably disodium EDTA and calcium disodium EDTA."

This I agree with, but unfortunately people come here after making their soil, and it's actually hard for someone new to an area to tell whether the local soil is already rich in lime or whether it's deficient.

DANKSWAG said:

Now lime is one thing to use when cooked into soil but never added as an amendment to correct cal mag issues. Dolomite lime is best for long lasting release in soil.

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hmm, all this scientific talk and no one has even thought the problem could be environmental? first thing i was suggest to you op, is to get you rh up to at least 50 and then start to take in everyone else's suggestion.

Sorry, you're right. Sorry OP for hijacking your thread. Mind you, the scientific talk isn't about his grow at this point, it really is just arguing between us in general. Sorry

Fresh 2 De@th said:

hmm, all this scientific talk and no one has even thought the problem could be environmental? first thing i was suggest to you op, is to get you rh up to at least 50 and then start to take in everyone else's suggestion.

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churchhaze said:

If you look in the periodic table, you'll be hardpressed to find "calmag" because it's not an element. Calmag is a brand that consists mostly of calcium nitrate! and secondary magnessium nitrate... the third ingredient is iron EDTA. This formula is very similar to the GH flora micro bottle.

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semantics you knew I was referring to Ca and Mg

churchhaze said:

Do you realize just how little chelated nutrients go into any given mix anyway? What you're saying is completely baseless. The only element in any sort of appreciable amount that's chelated in most mixes is iron, and there's barely any of that. The rest of the chelated minerals like zinc are in such low concentrations, it may as well be zero. No way that's going to kill a micro culture. Seriously, go look up what chelation is...

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What is the by product of EDTA - SALT. Why add more salt, rather synthetic based or acid based? It's Micro genecide either way.
Organic soil with its ingredients such as coco fiber if not washed properly well also subject to micro herd to unneeded salt in their diet. My goodness folks sodium if good for human intake, but too much not so good. Same with these ladies, you want to reduce growth and production just keep adding synthetic salts and organic material chelated in acids.

• EDTA is produced as several salts, notably disodium EDTA and calcium disodium EDTA.​
  
  
  
  

EDTA is organic. It's as clear as a sunny day. What you're claiming is pure superstition and has no scientific backing. And if you think that iron EDTA has sodium in it... well... you know.

Can you guess which product of EDTA contains sodium? Could it be disodium EDTA? Look, I understand that you want to argue, but learn something about organic and inorganic chemistry before you speak with so much conviction.

polyamino carboxylic acid

I said... Either way adding nutrients chelated with sythentic salts or an organic acid (EDTA) produces an issue with the micro herd. Where with synthetic you will certianly kill your microlife, whereas using organic acid to provided chelated nutrients will also harm the micro life. When growing organically one has to be mycro herd friendly and not lower the ph to kill friendly bacteria and cause unfriendly fungi to take over soil web.
Besides The Bottom Line is: One does not need chelated nutrients rather they be derived by using synthetic salts or organic acid.

The bottom line is that you insist the tiny amount of iron EDTA in nutrient mixes will kill bacteria. It's nonsense. What you're saying about being "mycro herd friendly" is true, but what you're saying about EDTA killing them is just stupid. Bacteria isn't going to be affected in the least bit just because you add 5mL 0.1% iron EDTA solution, which is the amount in Calmag. The fact that you say things like "nutrients chelated with synthetic salts or EDTA" shows you really have no idea what you're talking about. You can't use synthetic salts to chelate things, you chelate cations , half a salt, with a chelate like EDTA.. Also, you must realize that "synthetic salts" exist in nature as "natural salts".

Again, I'm sorry to the OP. None of this has to do with solving his problem.

An interview with the Rev on... http://stuffstonerslike.com/2012/11/15/the-rev-chats-about-his-new-book-true-living-organics/

STUFF STONERS LIKE:
You came up growing hydroponic weed using synthetic nutrients. So what made you turn your back on hydro?


The Rev:
Quality and control. I hate synthetic grown weed – I mean smoking it – and I also hate that corporations, who make synthetic delivered nutrients make it seem like the way you grow plants is their way, and they have everyone brainwashed and these peeps couldn’t grow worth a damn in the natural world. Helpless, without the pretty pretty bottles of synthetic snake oil, heh heh; I have done some research into this amigo, and it is my belief that smoking synthetic grown weed sucks for more reasons than the hot/harshness of the smoke compared to TLO. Reading a bunch of innocuous looking acronyms like ‘EDTA’ isn’t impressive, and that’s how it’s supposed to come across. Look into those acronyms sometime if you want some stunning learning and dark amusement.All natural (like TLO) herbs are pure planet Earth baybee, and I know exactly what I am smoking, and it is elegant. This is my Kung Fu, and it is strong.

churchhaze said:

The bottom line is that you insist the tiny amount of iron EDTA in nutrient mixes will kill bacteria. It's nonsense. What you're saying about being "mycro herd friendly" is true, but what you're saying about EDTA killing them is just stupid. Bacteria isn't going to be affected in the least bit just because you add 5mL 0.1% iron EDTA solution, which is the amount in Calmag. The fact that you say things like "nutrients chelated with synthetic salts or EDTA" shows you really have no idea what you're talking about. You can't use synthetic salts to chelate things, you chelate cations , half a salt, with a chelate like EDTA.. Also, you must realize that "synthetic salts" exist in nature as "natural salts".

Again, I'm sorry to the OP. None of this has to do with solving his problem.

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Oh yee of little faith.. it has EVERYTHING to do with it.

Yeah I will take Rev's word over your's there Churchhaze.. just going with a proven KNOWN winner! http://stuffstonerslike.com/2012/11/15/the-rev-chats-about-his-new-book-true-living-organics/

STUFF STONERS LIKE
What about food scraps? What’s the guideline on the kinda food you use? Can we toss a half-eaten Big Mac and a 7-11 Slurpee in there and not have to worry about all those preservatives and shit killing our microbeasties?

The Rev:
Salt is bad, and too much of it will fry your plants much like it will fry you. Preservatives and any kind of EDTA type bullshit are bad; also, never throw meat into your recycling stuff. Once I got my worm farm I began to understand what good food actually is, because I wanted to give the worms what made them the happiest/healthiest. So the “collateral damage” was I started eating better, and amazing things began to happen. Since chlorinated water kills life I stopped drinking tap water period and filter all my water for drinking/cooking now and amazing things began to happen. No bull fellas; no bull at all. See for yourselves, because once you start to “get it” you may get “The Sickness” like myself and many others, becoming a recycling machine. I have seen newcomers to TLO turn into Buddhists… It’s an eye opener to be sure.

Pretty convincing shit there. If only I had listened to the weed authorities on the matter instead of reading scientific documents explaining what it all is. I'd know what's "bad" and what's "bullshit". Very specific reasoning there! You know what? The government is putting flouride in your water. There, I said it! They're brainwashing our youth!! Also, terrorists weren't responsible for 9/11, it was chelates.

"Preservatives and any kind of EDTA type bullshit are bad"

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All soil is different so how could you possibly know what you're smoking better than someone who grows hydroponically? We know exactly what we're smoking. When you say you don't know what you're smoking with hydro, you admit just that. I Do. It's called hydrocarbons (sugars/starches), calcium, nitrate, potassium, phosphate, iron, edta, sulphate, and Magnessium.

So I have a question for you... Did you know that soil has ALUMINUM, mercury and lead in it?? Do you really know what you're smoking?

DANKSWAG said:

I know exactly what I am smoking

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