Calling All Noob Growers

This thread should be a sticky?

  • Yes, it was very helpful

    Votes: 610 89.1%
  • No, this info is already covered

    Votes: 75 10.9%

  • Total voters
    685

bigman4270

Well-Known Member
Well my latest research has broken yet another myth even more and I'm stoked at some of the stuff I have found. Of course this means more experiments but hey I love that, just not sure how long before I get to actually do them all

anyway, I will write another ditty this weekend as this latest info is about drying and curing and a few of you are there, so the info will be of benefit

I finished my research on Infrared but was waiting till I get the next grow going to write the ditty because I will be incorporating the experiment in the new growroom
Can't wait for the info on the curing. Will be chopping Ziva this wekend and want to dry here out proper.

Thanx

Big
 

jumboSWISHER

Well-Known Member
heyy riddle,
just wondering if you have ever heard of, or experimented with LSTing stretched out seedlings, when there still young. 1-2 weeks.
my dad watched my plants for a few days(days 2-9 for the seedling), and let my Blue Dream seedling stretch like crazy. since its not really a main concern (bagseed, n didnt much care for the bud it came from) i decided to LST it. just wondering if its more likely to herm or something.
thnx =]
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
heyy riddle,
just wondering if you have ever heard of, or experimented with LSTing stretched out seedlings, when there still young. 1-2 weeks.
my dad watched my plants for a few days(days 2-9 for the seedling), and let my Blue Dream seedling stretch like crazy. since its not really a main concern (bagseed, n didnt much care for the bud it came from) i decided to LST it. just wondering if its more likely to herm or something.
thnx =]
doubt if it would hermie and don't really know, hell you know I love a good experiment so try it and see what happens???
 

jumboSWISHER

Well-Known Member
well i tied her down last night, looking good so far =]
she popped internodes since LSTing witch surprised me since its only 11 days old.
but ill letcha know how it goes
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
got my breeders bible today

now I got more readin to do, but I don't mind

EDIT: This is a great book, I read about 50 pages and scaned the rest if you are thinking about breeding your own strains or even just cross breeding you want this book!

it also has advanced growing techniques in it and most of the info comes from actual breeders that we are familiar with
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
Well I have a new game, those of you that followed or have read my NooB Advice thread know that I refered to the class I set up there as a game

in this new game I have created a loaded question designed to get folks to think?

I am aware that it will only work for a few, that most folks will not change thier minds or even understand what I am trying to get them to see

if you want to follow or participate you can check it out here

https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/339103-wow-riddle-has-question.html

Play nice, don't give up intended goal
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
As promised I will be sitting here typing all day LOL ok not all day but will most likely take me several hours

There will be 3 post including this one and I wanna explain how this came about

I had a friend that grew his first ever grow (in hydro) to harvest and asked me to check it out, he chopped it early and dried it a bit fast then put it in baggies so no real cure, while I got a buzz (had to smoke 3 bowls) it was at best good lookin swag (was grown from bag seed) I asked him if I could have some of it to experiment with, he gave me some and I re-wetted it and started trying to inflict a cure on it.

I pretty much did everything to it that I normally do to mine and included a few things I don't normally do (like put it in the fridge) I played with it for a month and the result of my efforts was that I could now get a pretty good buzz from smoking just one bowl (7 or 8 hits) I was happy I had taken what was pretty much crap weed and transformed it to a low/medium grade smoke, I gave it back to him.

It got me to thinkin, whether or not there was anything I could have done to make it even better? I had finished my latest research and decided to pursue research on drying and curing, I took this research in a different direction based on just 2 words and uncovered what I would call a not well known technique that could be called a secret but is better described as old school hippie shit, you will love what I found

I am going to start with the lesser of the 2 words (save the best for last) which actually took me a direction I had not expected where I learned a few things I did not know, like the fact that plants actually "breath" O2 during the dark time and release CO2 much like we do, I found this very interesting

Stay Tuned
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
Ok the first of our 2 words is OXIDATION, I chose this word because as an electronics tech I am well aware of how oxidation causes things to decay, it is also what causes us to age and why anti-oxidents are important to human health.

knowing this I have always breathed into my curing jars once the buds get close to where I want them (I have mentioned in other threads on this site that I do this and others have chimed in that they do it as well) the reason I do this is twofold I am displacing the O2 in the jar with CO2 (slowing the oxidation process) and injecting minor/slight moisture which keeps the buds fresh. I have done this for years and even found that it improves the taste and potency of swag (it was part of what I did to improve my friends bad crop) After doing this research I have opened the door for so many new experiments, damn I'm gonna be busy LOL

Anyway the reason I seperated these post is because what I about to share is not truely related to the actual harvesting of plants but rather in the growth. Every link I am about to share came up when I googled "oxidation in plants" and it turns out that most of the internal growth processes involve oxidation. I am sharing these links because the info is pretty good though some of them are pretty heavily scientific, others break it down in more easily understood way, (together they give a whole picture) and I would say if you are trying to better understand a few things about growth processes then these will be good starter links to follow, here they are,,,,,,

this first one explains the oxidation/reduction process for those that don't know
http://www.scienceclarified.com/Oi-Ph/Oxidation-Reduction-Reaction.html

very in depth explanation of oxidation process in plants (pdf)
http://www.biochemj.org/bj/017/0515/0170515.pdf

oxidation of fatty acids in plants
http://www.uky.edu/~dhild/biochem/21/lect21.html

Glycolysis, energy releasing pathways
http://www.uic.edu/classes/bios/bios100/lecturesf04am/lect12.htm

very good explanation of plant hormones (read this one for sure)
http://www.plant-hormones.info/auxins.htm

flavanoids and oxidation (there is a pdf link at the bottom)
http://www.tesisenxarxa.net/TDX-0115108-112213/index_an.html

ditty on photosynthesis
http://www.whatislife.com/reader2/Metabolism/pathway/photosyn.html

photosynthesis & resporation
http://waynesword.palomar.edu/photsyn1.htm

metabolism
http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study_guide/Chemistry-of-Energy-Use.topicArticleId-23791,articleId-23692.html

book preview
http://books.google.com/books?id=chWs4ewSzpEC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=oxidation+of+plants&source=bl&ots=tawsL19nkh&sig=BmtCq9vFMlB7QfJ1wJxONBgSuM4&hl=en&ei=0YUPTP3OCcnhnAft4fClDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBEQ6AEwADge#v=onepage&q=oxidation of plants&f=false

oxidation in soil (book preview)
http://books.google.com/books?id=bwze1vDkkH8C&pg=PA109&lpg=PA109&dq=oxidation+of+plants&source=bl&ots=aBHIMHbd6E&sig=ESTSl9SI6js6YuvWQ_s84r2A6pY&hl=en&ei=r4cPTI0KxvicB4qn8KsN&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CCMQ6AEwBTgo#v=onepage&q=oxidation of plants&f=false

explanation of sugars
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/organic/sugar.html

another explanation of oxidation in the photosynthesis process
http://www.ehow.com/about_6469086_reduced-oxidized-photosynthesis_.html


All good useful info that can help us better understand what our plants are doing

Stay Tuned
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
Ok , I have to interject a 4th post as I have thought about this,,,,,,I honestly feel a bit blessed that those of you that take the time to follow my research ramblings have common sense and understand things in a similar way to how I do. We don't buy the myths or hype, we seek out the truth and we apply it by actually experimenting, we are a very small percentage of all the growers out there and I appreciate this as I like others opinions and input. I enjoy sharing the ongoing discusion, truely! So I know that you guys (and gals) will take this info and chew on it like I do, that you wil experiment and learn,,but there are others that will just blindly apply it and for them I felt I need to say,,,,,,,,,,,,

Disclaimer,
My next post on Harvesting, Drying and Curing is offered as info to stimulate thought and experiments to make our smoke/medicine better, I have not done (yet) any of the things I will be talking about and wish to point out this is NOT a how to guide, I am merely sharing my research that will lead myself to try different things in order to discover what works and what does not for myself, if you the reader decide to try some of these things for yourself I advise doing so in a small fashion. Experiment with one plant or a small amount of your harvest. DO NOT take a chance on losing a whole harvest by going balls out with this info!

That being said

Stay Tuned
 

bigman4270

Well-Known Member
HAHA ur harvestin already ? damn you i still have 4-5 weeks :(
Yup, I must of been a little high when I started my last grow thread! I checked my notes I keep on the grow and the dates in the thread and they didn't match up? Go figure. Anyway they are really 59 days today, not 57 like I wrote. No biggie, the trichs are just were I wan't them to be so down she is gonna come. LOL
 

Danielsgb

Well-Known Member
Whatever it is I will be trying it with part of my harvest in about 3 to 5 wks. You Never put up anything that didn't make sense for me. Keep it coming.
Daniels
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
The first word we used for this research was Oxidation, the second word is Fermentation as the fermentation process is what makes "the cure" work so understanding the fermentation process is very important.

Here at RIU there is a thread that includes a cut and paste from a book by Mel and Ed you all know I like Mels book I am not gonna paste it here as it is fairly long and this will be long enough as it is, but this same info appears on most every MJ forum and seems to be the basis for how we all cure today. It seems from my research that this was originally based on how tobaco is cured and we will get into that later, here is the RIU link to this info I advise you go read it then come back,,,,,,,,

https://www.rollitup.org/harvesting-curing/146512-harvesting-curing-drying-take-back.html

There is an old hippie growers myth that says to soak the roots in water for 3 to 10 days before harvest this is not to be confused with the flush that everyone talks about (you all know I don't flush before harvest, I flush always) the tip/myth is supposed to improve the quality of our smoke. I have to admit that I never paid it much attention until now because I have now proven it is not a myth and has some scientific validation.

What it amounts to is a way to start the cure prior to harvest while the plant is still alive. This is an incredible find as far as I am concerned and I can not wait to try it. what it amounts to is starving the plant of oxygen by drowning it, if in hydro take away the bubbles or spray fill the tank with water and wait, if in a pot either continuously water it (keep it wet/soaked) or stick the pot in a bigger bucket of water.

I need to add some background info as I'm getting ahead of myself, most of you know that if you add sugar and yeast together it ferments into alcohol giving off CO2. The basic definition of Fermentation is the act of breaking down sugars into alcohol and our plants do this internally thru a natural process even while growing. The act of fermentation is a oxidation/reduction process (explained in prior post) just as most plant functions seem to be. Also please be aware that N is needed for proper fermintation to take place.

Here is the info I found verifying that this old hippie myth is real,,,,,

MrMistery wrote>:(jules

Plants use photosynthesis to make sugars out of water, CO2 and sunlight. But a plant cell (like any other cell) cannot use sugars for their cellular processes, it needs to break down the sugars and make ATP. Basically, the only difference between humans and plants in this chapter is that plants make their own sugars, while we get ours from food. But we still both need to use those sugars, and we do that through cellular respiration.

@douglebod
Fermentation is strictly defined as any way of anaerobically degrade pyruvic acid and recycle NAD+ to keep glycolysis going. You can then categorize this process as lactic acid fermentation (where pyruvate accepts electrons from NADH directly and becomes lactate), alcoholic fermentation (where pyruvate is first decarboxylated to acetaldehyde which then accepts electrons from NADH to become ethanol) and others (which are much more obscure). So technically, human cells are able to carry out lactic acid fermentation. Liver cells also have the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase (responsible for ethanol formation in yeast and other fungi), but we use it in the reverse direction so to speak to get rid of any alcohol which we consume by converting it to pyruvate.
Plants however, can carry out alcoholic fermatation. They don't normally do it, because plants are usually in contact with oxygen. However, if you flood the root of a plant for about a week the cells are starved of oxygen, and because of this they will start carrying out alcoholic fermentation to survive.

-Andrei

very true
that is what my bio textbook says.
just to complete the last part
in alcoholic pathway ethanol forms a waste while the lactate formed in the lactate pathway can be broken down further. that is what leads to the oxygen debt

found here,
http://www.biology-online.org/biology-forum/about16671.html

and,

Alcoholic Fermentation In Plants

By the following, which we find in the London Gardener's Chronicle, it will be seen that the discovery is somewhat akin to those of Prof. Burrill and others in this country:
"When plants are deprived of oxygen gas it appears that alcohol is formed in all their tissues without the aid of any ferment. If a vegetable cell containing sugar be cut off from its supply of oxygen - be suffocated, in fact - the sugar it contains becomes broken up or changed into carbonic acid, alcohol, and other products. Moreover, the various alcoholic ferments only produce their effects under the same conditions. Alcoholic fermentation, then, depends solely on the suffocation of a living cell containing sugar. Starting from these ascertained facts, M. Van Tieghem, in a recent number of the Annales Agronomiques, alludes to a peculiar disease in apple trees due to a suffocation of the roots, followed by the production of alcohol in their tissues. On microscopic examination the tissues were found healthy, except the medullary rays, the cells of which, instead of containing starch or sugar, contained brown oily globules, the residue left after the formation of the alcohol, which latter is diffused throughout the root, tinging the cells of a characteristic brown color, and giving rise to an easily detected alcoholic odor.
Judging from these appearances what was the nature of the disease, M. Van Tieghem made inquiries as to the character of the soil, and from this, as well as the fact that the season had been extremely wet, his diagnosis was confirmed, and he in consequence prescribed efficient drainage as the remedy for the disease, and with good effect.
found here,
http://chestofbooks.com/gardening-horticulture/Gardener-Monthly-V23/Alcoholic-Fermentation-In-Plants.html

one more
http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study_guide/Anaerobic-Respiration-Fermentation.topicArticleId-23791,articleId-23703.html

I am giving you this info first as it relates to doing something prior to the actual harvest chop. The rest of what I found will bring everything that we find already posted in the harvest forum to a hopefully better understanding.

We as MJ growers have modified/refined the basic knowledge of curing and fermentation of other plants due to the fact that our buds are not leaves and are therefore more subceptable to mold but the basic premise is the same, we don't add to much heat because it is known to degrade THC. We don't maintain higher humidity levels to avoid mold. The piling of the plants to induce fermentation is the same concept that makes composting work and for us home growers this is why we use a paper bag or cardboard box because it creates a scaled down compost/fermentation chamber, with this in mind pay great attention to why it is necessary to check often and rotate/rearrange the buds during this part of the process. Also know that this process will also continue once you put your buds into jars.

I also want to point out that while it is easier to trim your buds before drying that leaving the leafs on and hanging the plant allows the leafs to dry formed around the bud to protect it from various things most importantly oxidation which we know degrades the THC. It also allows the buds to dry more slowly which is what we truely want to happen.
My friend Shrubs did this on his second harvest, now I know why.

Please remember that patience is a virtue the slower they dry the better they will be,,,,,,,,period. To many growers are in a hurry and as a result speed things up once you read all of the info I am about to present you will see what I am saying is true as I have (yes I have read all of it)

Next I am going to share several MJ specific links about harvesting & curing as more heads are always better than one and the whole of all of them put together creates a pretty solid picture for us to consider as we try to improve our techniques. a couple of them even explain how to add flavors in case anyone wants to experiment a bit.

Here they are in no particular order
http://www.wietmeneer.nl/growing/haze.html

http://forum.grasscity.com/harvesting-processing/162435-how-cure-crop-marijuana-more.html

http://www.sky.org/data/grow/c21.html

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php/7186-Curing-As-suggested-by-Mel-Frank-amp-Ed-Rosenthal

http://www.420magazine.com/forums/harvest-preparation-curing/53606-harvesting-drying-curing.html

http://forum.sensiseeds.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=5836

http://www.seedbankupdate.com/cure.htm

I am including the following links because they explain how other plants are cured in various different ways for color and taste this info will not only help us to better understand the various processes but may offer ideas for future experiments that might create a better end product. what you will see is while the techniques vary a bit they are all very similar.

Cacao (chocolate)
http://www.allchocolate.com/understanding/how_chocolate_is_made/tree_to_factory.aspx

Tea
http://www.wtea.com/about-tea_growth.aspx

http://the-leaf.org/issue%202/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/oxidation-fermentation-in-tea-manufacture-single-page-layout.pdf

Tobacco
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco#Curing

http://books.google.com/books?id=9c8RAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA576&lpg=PA576&dq=fermentation+in+plants+drying+curing&source=bl&ots=clDgfMfGI7&sig=XUOCCUvxjZPWmtD280vTTfMN1cA&hl=en&ei=fysQTNuuMcf8nAeUp5ysDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=fermentation in plants drying curing&f=false

http://www.cigars4dummies.com/tobacco-curing/drying.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=4sopAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA3-PA78&lpg=RA3-PA78&dq=fermentation+in+plants+drying+curing&source=bl&ots=LaNqGxtUkh&sig=qNhzhgGXSowy7I4vvFUyWXtvFok&hl=en&ei=7zgQTM2qG4ztnQeBmuS8DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CDQQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=fermentation in plants drying curing&f=false

http://chestofbooks.com/health/materia-medica-drugs/A-Practitioner-Handbook-Of-Materia-Medica-and-Therapeutics/Green-Plant-Tinctures.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=A1IaAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=fermentation+in+plants+drying+curing&source=bl&ots=WDBE5ezoYA&sig=wfmo_XEqV6WEfYlhnCeBBgqeE8I&hl=en&ei=d0sQTKvrOYqmnQfyuPmpDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CDIQ6AEwCTgy#v=onepage&q=fermentation in plants drying curing&f=false

lots of other plants
http://bookshop.cabi.org/Uploads/Books/PDF/9781845933562/9781845933562.pdf


We're almost finished, I found a couple more things that I know will spark your DIY talents for technique tweaking LOL

Here is a homemade drying chamber
http://www.coffinails.com/curing_tobacco.html

here is a homemade fermentation chamber
http://www.instructables.com/id/Tobacco-fermentation-curing-chamber-for-cigars/

in the comments section they mention an egg incubator that has adjustable heat and humidity for around $70, here it is
https://www.gqfmfg.com/store/comersus_listOneCategory.asp?idCategory=29#

and that brings us to the end of my research. I spent about 20 hours on all of this but you should be able to follow it all in just 2 or 3 since I was going thru 100's of pages to find the ones I have posted

I hope that everyone that reads this comes away with a better understanding of how it all works and that as a result we all have better herb to enjoy in the future

Happy Harvesting


 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
Damn, good thing u posted this when u did .... its gna take about 4 weeks for this to all sink in :D - i really like the idea of starving the roots of o2 before harvesting
Yeah I have a friend that is harvesting next week so this is already being tested, I will report my findings as we're gonna be gettin together soon to talk shop
 
This is a really great thread, thanks for pointing me here riddle. you really take the time to look things up and get credible sources where ever possible. You obviously put a lot of work into this and I just wanted to say thanks on behalf of all noobs. My grow is starting out well and a large part of that is what I learned from you. Unfortunately I cannot use the rain method at this time, as my method of run off disposal is a turkey baster and a bucket that I have to carry down a ladder, but once I get something built I will definitely be following your advice.
 

bigman4270

Well-Known Member
As always, great read. That is a wealth of info and will take a little time to absorb. Gotta work today but will be back this afternoon with some questions I am sure.

Peace

Big
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
Well I gave it up in the Riddleme has a question thread and explained my intent (somewhat) I actually posted that knowing that I was gonna be posting the harvest info in an effort to get more folks to understand, as always only a few will get it ???
 

bigman4270

Well-Known Member
Well I gave it up in the Riddleme has a question thread and explained my intent (somewhat) I actually posted that knowing that I was gonna be posting the harvest info in an effort to get more folks to understand, as always only a few will get it ???
This is were the saying " you can lead a horse to water" lol if ya know what I mean?
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
yeah but I keep trying, the more we convert the more there are to spread the word = the better our smoke is

I just hope I live to see the day LOL
 
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