Chiesel Full LED - First Time Grow

PSUAGRO. said:

I never said burn A soil mix should not KILL MJ like the op's girls are showing http://foxfarmfertilizer.com/products_soils1.html yes it is a little "hot" straight out of the bag but I can show you 100 threads showing good results with this soil also, or with MG products(which you recommended^^ and I don't at all IMO)......this is grower error (no offence Bilgerat) and if he adds some beni bacteria he might still be able to save them/ with good watering habits........good luck

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Would suggest you re-read what i said! i use ffof and recommend it and nothing wrong with mg for seedlings at least it won't burn the shit out of them like the ocean forest .If he has done everything like he has posted then only thing it can be is the soil which WILL burn young plants period! FFOf already is full of bennie's that's not his issue .the hot ass soil is,if they was mine i would already had them out of the soil and into a less hot mixture like any damn thing you can buy at wal-mart i never lose plants and my plants never have burn marks of any kind with perfect fade at the end so either listen to my advice or not no hair off my back .but your statements are contradicting, and i wasnt pushing mg just better than ffof for youngster's hell anything is.

PSUAGRO. said:

Your girls are in trouble/might be to far gone............for flushing in soil, double the amount per gallon of soil/medium(3gallons= flush w 6 gallons of water).....BUT you need to find out the ph of your water/tap before doing anything!.....ffof does not kill like this, your watering habits are heavy also, flushing will make it worse right now.....IMO you need to let them get bone dry, find out your water's ph! or buy RO water from the store, and then flush....after keep drying them out between waterings (get a moisture probe from HD or lowes if you need help with it) and don't give them any nutes/additives till early flowering(very low dose of p-k).....If you really want to still spend money to save them give them some of this http://www.usethrive.com/store/PlantThrive/ to help with the toxicity symptons(your water must be chlorine free)............good luck

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Here is my post(never edited!)...........NEVER said it wont burn, I said it wont KILL

ThegrowerMOJO said:

Just curious but where did you hear FFOF doesn't burn plants i can show you about 100 threads on RIU that says likewise.It is a very hot mix and shouldn't be used on young plants if your using it that's your issue!.I however do agree with the over watering a common newbie mistake.

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This is when you accused me of saying BURN /never did! I said it doesn't KILL.........

PSUAGRO. said:

I never said burn A soil mix should not KILL MJ like the op's girls are showing http://foxfarmfertilizer.com/products_soils1.html yes it is a little "hot" straight out of the bag but I can show you 100 threads showing good results with this soil also, or with MG products(which you recommended^^ and I don't at all IMO)......this is grower error (no offence Bilgerat) and if he adds some beni bacteria he might still be able to save them/ with good watering habits........good luck

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Again I say the same thing...........blah

ThegrowerMOJO said:

Would suggest you re-read what i said! i use ffof and recommend it and nothing wrong with mg for seedlings at least it won't burn the shit out of them like the ocean forest .If he has done everything like he has posted then only thing it can be is the soil which WILL burn young plants period! FFOf already is full of bennie's that's not his issue .the hot ass soil is,if they was mine i would already had them out of the soil and into a less hot mixture like any damn thing you can buy at wal-mart i never lose plants and my plants never have burn marks of any kind with perfect fade at the end so either listen to my advice or not no hair off my back .but your statements are contradicting, and i wasnt pushing mg just better than ffof for youngster's hell anything is.

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I just REREAD EVERYTHING and you are accusing me of contradiction lol.......oh and this^^ "FFof already is full of bennie's that's not his issue .the hot ass soil is" I maybe high but that makes no sense to me....so beneficial bacteria is thriving and plentiful (says you) in this soil mix but seedlings can't due to the toxic levels of organic nutrients....hmmm ok

talking about no sense....so Fox Farms has put a soil mix on the market(with their reputation on the line) which will kill anything germmed in it (mj is a hardy C3 plant) and they are still in business?? hmmmm ok

i used every kind of fox farm from seed and have never had a problem....ever. i just mix perlite in the soil, poke a hole...plop the seed in pointy side down(without a germ process), cover and water....im pretty sure i learned that in preschool....works like a charm with FFof ^_^

https://www.rollitup.org/organics/555765-how-not-burn-seedlings.html if you'll read high rep guy recommends mg as well .here's another thread https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/560687-need-help-ffof-burning-my.html seems they all say same thing but blah blah blah
you reposted it so i will comment these are your words

• " BUT you need to find out the ph of your water/tap before doing anything!.....ffof does not kill like this", < ok his plants are still alive so it is burning them ! you got upset because i called you out on the ffof well i listed 2 threads there are many more just type in ffof burn in search bar. I don't stand alone on this thought or the advice i have given.
  
  
  
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my grandma was a avid gardener and she told me once, when i was a wee lad, that a seed has everything it needs to survive its baby stage, and just to water it with untreated water so the seed isn't being "babied" with easy uptake of nutrients.it's kind of like how i clone too, just plain water and if they want to survive those girls better shoot some roots out and thrive I know how crucial PH is to any growing plant but i never use anything but tap water when i start from seed and they are always so healthy and perfect...as a matter of fact....i don't think i've ever seen a deficient seedling , but maybe that's why some do get burnt, maybe they give the plant access to the full nutrient content of your soil and it over eats with ph treated???? that's just me being stoned and over thinking things haha. i'm sure you all can relate

PSUAGRO. said:

Ok....so I've gone back and read through this thread(bored until the eagles play/fu giants!). Now I saw through your pics that they were germed in ffof and had NO issues then transplanted into 3g with more ffof and no issue for TEN days after that. So this DEADLY soil didn't do any damage when they were seedlings and MOST susceptible to nute burn. This tells me something was added or your ph IS OFF, due to it taking about two-three weeks to show in a ph balanced soil like ffof(6.3-6.9)

1......you say you havent added ANYTHING other than water...... correct?
2......some advised you to add cal/mag, you never responded....did you? A calcium toxicity will lockout ALL micronutrients and MAG which your latest pics ^^show, A magnesium toxicity will give you a salt build up which will kill everything!
3.......your meter's probe may be broken/malfunctioning
4......you are overwatering(sorry but true IMO) and with cold temps at lights off or on(with leds) will cause multiple problems with your root health, and kill your plants.....FYI..I watered up to eight days in between with my leds in temps above 90f and in a COCCO medium!! it takes a long time for water to transpire under leds/ it's the #1 killer that I've seen for new led users...........

good luck and I'm not trying to be a asshole towards you/ just helping

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I think the plants tolerating a cup of FFOF vs. 3 Gallons of it is a big difference, they began to show signs of burn in the 3 Gallon.

I have said that I've added nothing but water in the very journal updates. I did not add cal/mag as I did not see what that grower was describing as a cal/mag deficiency (there was no extreme yellowing). Meter/probe is brand new, Hanna instruments pH probe. This is the third or fourth time you've mentioned the possibility that I've added something, and the third or fourth time I've said (including on the original grow journal) that I've not added anything.

2......some advised you to add cal/mag, you never responded....did you? A calcium toxicity will lockout ALL micronutrients and MAG which your latest pics ^^show, A magnesium toxicity will give you a salt build up which will kill everything!

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The soil medium that my latest pics show has been the same soil medium throughout the grow. If you're seeing new mag in the pics when I haven't bought any then I don't know what to tell you, ghost mag? lol.

I'm using smart pots and they dry up pretty quickly. My environment (outside the tent) is dry in general compared to other growers climates, I waited 7 days in between watering at times until the first 3 inches were bone dry. I was not overwatering, I say this confidently even as a first grower. The increase in water was post-burn and it was two waterings with their spacings brought together by 2-3 days (from 7 days to every 4, just for 2 waterings, post-burn). How did your plants survive temps above 90F? I don't let my tent get above 80 F, I'm also not using coco atm.

I understand where you're coming from but these results, if they are indeed objectively nute burn (which almost every grower here has guessed) then it makes FFOF look bad for this strain, fact. Growing is learning, I'm not put off by this and they are still alive, haven't pulled them, going to see if they ride out their FFOF roller coaster but I'm thinking about a transplant within the next 24 hours since the branches are falling off.

Amaximus said:

Bilge... I use a ffof/perlite mix (2/3 to 1/3) and I can tell you that I don't give any nutes to my girls until about five or six weeks in. ffof has plenty of nutes to get you almost, if not all the way, to flower.

I bought two tubs of nutes last grow. veg and bloom. I'm ordering more bloom nutes but I still have enough veg nutes for like five years.

As for cal-mag... With an led grow I start adding 1/2 strength to my water starting around week three and quickly ramp it up to full dose by week five.

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From Page 2.... ^^^^^

Why is it that I am not having any problems with FFoF being used as described in my previous post? I grow exclusively in the above mentioned mix. My seeds gets placed in a party cup with the mix as soon as I see a tapper. Once that plant grows to about the diameter of the party cup I x-plant to 2G and so on and so forth. I have no problems...?

Has anyone considered that this is strain dependent?

FFoF used correctly with no nutes WILL NOT kill seedlings. (Maybe certain strains, But I haven't encountered them yet.)

Temps up to 85F are tolerated. Slow/stunted growth begins right around 85-90F. Some strains can take higher temps depending on a lot of factors. Depending on Co2 levels plants can tolerate higher temperatures.

Depending on what MG soil you use it is actually way worse than just about anything. Some MG soils have nutrients within the soil that are released via water. If you run into problems and want to "flush" your plants you'll only end up compounding the problem.

If you aren't over watering, under watering, giving nutrients, giving supplements, providing proper lighting, proper temps and ventilation/air movement then there should be no problem.

That or there are other factors at work here. From what you (Bilge) is saying everything is being done properly. So... I dont know.

ThegrowerMOJO said:

https://www.rollitup.org/organics/555765-how-not-burn-seedlings.html if you'll read high rep guy recommends mg as well .here's another thread https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/560687-need-help-ffof-burning-my.html seems they all say same thing but blah blah blah
you reposted it so i will comment these are your words

• " BUT you need to find out the ph of your water/tap before doing anything!.....ffof does not kill like this", < ok his plants are still alive so it is burning them ! you got upset because i called you out on the ffof well i listed 2 threads there are many more just type in ffof burn in search bar. I don't stand alone on this thought or the advice i have given.
  
  
  
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Ha......you called me out on FFOF?? I don't work for fox farm/I just like their products........going by your links I'll have a little amusement with this....first link 5 posts down is Missnu (nice person/ helps allot of people out in the MJ problems forum; is usually spot on) oldest member/highest post count in the thread says "I use FFOF for my seedlings...AS LONG AS YOU DON'T OVERWATER you will see no issue. All it takes is one person saying something and it gets taken down as fact, even though other people haven't tried it themselves. I have used it for starting seeds and clones.....had very few issues....it is a great soil....BUT IF YOU OVERWATER IT YOU WILL SEE OVER FEED SYMPTOMS" and we move on too the next link 2nd post by Scroglodyte/ most posts=oldest member in thread says "OF is hot. Too hot for seedlings. at two weeks they must be surviving at least. RIDE IT OUT. and how about a pic?" well this guy's medium of choice is peatmoss/perlite/"poop" lol talk about a deadly mix(peat moss is highly acidic/ add "poop" to it and game over IMO)...It's a crap shoot... what It comes down to here is personal opinions, Is any medium the best for all grower's situations? NO...and the "nature" of our hobby contains to many variables to be able to pinpoint the issues through a computer screen.....we both gave advice/ but they are guesses and that's it........no harm meant and we are both trying to help this grower, which is great ... Do really want me to link miracle grow soil issues

Bilgerat said:

I think the plants tolerating a cup of FFOF vs. 3 Gallons of it is a big difference, they began to show signs of burn in the 3 Gallon.

I have said that I've added nothing but water in the very journal updates. I did not add cal/mag as I did not see what that grower was describing as a cal/mag deficiency (there was no extreme yellowing). Meter/probe is brand new, Hanna instruments pH probe. This is the third or fourth time you've mentioned the possibility that I've added something, and the third or fourth time I've said (including on the original grow journal) that I've not added anything.

The soil medium that my latest pics show has been the same soil medium throughout the grow. If you're seeing new mag in the pics when I haven't bought any then I don't know what to tell you, ghost mag? lol.

I'm using smart pots and they dry up pretty quickly. My environment (outside the tent) is dry in general compared to other growers climates, I waited 7 days in between watering at times until the first 3 inches were bone dry. I was not overwatering, I say this confidently even as a first grower. The increase in water was post-burn and it was two waterings with their spacings brought together by 2-3 days (from 7 days to every 4, just for 2 waterings, post-burn). How did your plants survive temps above 90F? I don't let my tent get above 80 F, I'm also not using coco atm.

I understand where you're coming from but these results, if they are indeed objectively nute burn (which almost every grower here has guessed) then it makes FFOF look bad for this strain, fact. Growing is learning, I'm not put off by this and they are still alive, haven't pulled them, going to see if they ride out their FFOF roller coaster but I'm thinking about a transplant within the next 24 hours since the branches are falling off.

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Listen I'm sorry your having problems with your girls......I just gave you my best guesses to the problem....I wish I could come into your grow room and look at them in person to ACTUALLY know what the issue is........"Growing is learning"^^ correct and that's a great mindset for your future grows.....RIDE IT OUT and let your soil get dry/ they "should" pull through.............good luck grower and post some pics...

There are many kinds of mg out there including seedling mix with no nutes in it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! seedlings don't need nutes period end of fucking discussion. ffof is hot as hell and causes problems i have had it many others have had it.but i guess your all knowing and only your way or highway huh? did you bother to search for ffof burn?how many pages came up i had 42.seems to be an issue out there but hey everyone is wrong.Like i said i use ffof as well but i don't use it on clones or seedlings because why?It burns them!Last time i will post on this the o.p. has pm'd me and i gave him my advice ,arguing with you is doing nothing but make me want to go put a nice clone in ffof and prove to you it will burn, but then you would just say i didn't ph or over watered or added nutes whatever your excuse for ffof being to hot.here is an old picture of my bag of ffof and the plant it burnt up in the end a pure afghan this was before i found out how hot ffof was.(several years ago)notice it wasn't overwatered either as you like to point out nice and dry.

Rage Much?

Wow. You are fucking dumb. I don't even know where to begin. So, I won't. You're not going to post on here anyway, So why waste my time, right?

Bilge, Good luck with your grow. If you are really speaking with this guy via PM and take anything he has to say seriously, You're going to need it.

ThegrowerMOJO said:

There are many kinds of mg out there including seedling mix with no nutes in it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! seedlings don't need nutes period end of fucking discussion. ffof is hot as hell and causes problems i have had it many others have had it.but i guess your all knowing and only your way or highway huh? did you bother to search for ffof burn?how many pages came up i had 42.seems to be an issue out there but hey everyone is wrong.Like i said i use ffof as well but i don't use it on clones or seedlings because why?It burns them!Last time i will post on this the o.p. has pm'd me and i gave him my advice ,arguing with you is doing nothing but make me want to go put a nice clone in ffof and prove to you it will burn, but then you would just say i didn't ph or over watered or added nutes whatever your excuse for ffof being to hot.here is an old picture of my bag of ffof and the plant it burnt up in the end a pure afghan this was before i found out how hot ffof was.(several years ago)notice it wasn't overwatered either as you like to point out nice and dry.View attachment 2358164View attachment 2358165

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WTF^^^^ alright I was being nice(maybe you should read my last post AGAIN!), but now you pissed me the fuck off.......

....name me one MIRACLE GROW PRODUCT that doesn't even have their crappy ferts in it?? here's your seedling mix http://www.scotts.com/smg/catalog/productTemplate.jsp?proId=prod70340&itemId=cat50154 scroll down "enriched with miracle grow plant food and Micromax nutrients" fertilizer analysis .05-.05-.05...meaning it has fucking nutes in it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! even their perlite has that shit in it/ lol no joke

....I've used ffof and never had issues with my plants period!!!!!!!! just cause 42 threads say so, doesn't mean it is so.......how about you search MG soil issues in your precious search bar/ ten times that #........doesn't mean it completely sucks either.....It comes down too grower error 95% of the time IMO..

...People germ in "hot" soil mixes all the time.....maybe i should tell Subcool that his "supersoil" sucks because a few threads popped up saying it burned their seedlings......blah blah blah

Oh yeah your pics^^^ #1 shows me an unkempt/sloppy grow room with a couple t12 shoplights hanging and your ffof bag.......#2 Doesn't show me much due to the yellow lighting (hps?) , but what it does show is heat stress and yes the poor girl is thirsty.....

I have not transplanted the girls yet due to mulling over other various factors such as a possible humidity tweak and not being sure if they'll survive the stress of a transplant right now. Temps have been between 75-79 F. RH has been between 38 - 50. I've recently constructed a homemade humidifier to place inside, I've noticed an increase in steady RH and will be buying a humidifier soon to keep the room at a constant 50+ RH. I've misted them just now with distilled water (very little, maybe a couple long distance mists per plant). I'm worried about the one doing the worst, you can see it twice in the dark photos. It's undergrowth seems to be burnt up. I've taken some micro shears to a couple of leaves that have burnt beyond saving and had begun to twist themselves around the stalk.

I have not watered them since the flush. I have not added any nutrients, cal-mag, teas, or any emergency flush/save products. I have noticed new healthy growth since the flush and hope I can save them. Question for PSUAGRO: Based on what you see here, do you think this burn will continue and kill off the rest of the leaves or am I being paranoid? It's not fun watching leaves shrivel up and die slowly like that, I'd sooner like to know whether you think they are going to make it or not given their appearance.

the damaged leaves never recover, its all about the new growth from here on out. im sure they'll make a full recovery, you care toooo much for them not to!!

^^^^your not gonna save all of them IMO/most should make it though.............But my advice to you by looking at the pics is LET THEM DRY OUT completely and water them with the spring water you bought..........DON"T add anything or touch them(they are severely stressed so no transplanting or misting either) just ignore them! I know it's hard but just let them be.........good luck


Edit: I still think it's a good idea for you to buy a cheap($4) moisture probe from hd or lowes.....You really want this soil to be completely dry (not just the top three inches like you said) all the way down..........And don't forget to water according too the size of the plant, their is no reason to drench the whole pot at this stage

This is turning into the most useless thread from you guys bitching at each other....

However, just as another opinion from someone who uses ffof from start to finish with zero problems, next time I would mix some perlite into the soil. Typically a 1/3 seems to be a decent ratio. As you've stated this entire thread, you're keeping a really good eye on the environment. Your watering habits seem on point to me, despite others opinions. If you keep it up I don't see why your plants won't pull through eventually. Worst case scenario take a cutting and toss the worst of them. If I were you, I'd write this one off as a strain dependent issue and keep it moving.

As someone who has seen ffof not destroy plants, I will still admit it can and obviously will happen to some plants. Your plants are scorched, period. If you haven't been adding anything to burn them like that, something has. Nothing to do but keep watering and let them even out as they age. Adding perlite or the like may be just what you need to not give your plants such a shock when transplanted.

Best of luck as I'm interested in how that light on it's own will perform.

trevronious said:

This is turning into the most useless thread from you guys bitching at each other....

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Thanks for pointing that out four days after we resolved our differences and forgot about it all...

everyone's grow is different, different shit can happen all the time. Live and learn right no worries bro, like you said in the title of this thread...first time grow...much is to be learned and although people have their own ideas and past experienced...we're all here to help each other. it sucks when a plant dies but that kind of bad news should be accounted for, just like weak genetics, hermies, and other nasties. Keep up the positivity!!! there's already enough negative in this world so keep your chin up and keep givin it your all I'm rootin' for ya bro!!!!

Sorry for the lack of updates, net was down. Temps have been 74-77, RH 45-52%. These photos are really bad but there's a lot of them, I'm going to be taking more. I'm noticing that new growth seems to be fine but by the time a newer set of leaves appears the bottom set is dried up/nute burnt. This seems to be a repeating cycle where I see new growth and then bam, burnt/dead. The plant seems to have no problem growing healthy new growth but when it begins newer growth the previous growth dies. That description probably sounds like most plant death but does it sound specific to any deficiency, etc?

5 shots of Plant #1, showing the worst of the burn but still alive. Plant #2 is doing better than 1, and 3 is showing the same burn in addition to stunted growth compared to the other two.

^^^^ I see your still fighting the fight......the plants are not recovering as well as I imagined they would.....Your watering habits look good......You may be right about the culprit being the soil/ I was wrong!!. Sometimes you can get a bad batch of soil and it's possible that this specific strain doesn't like ffof.....I can't believe it but that what they are showing (claws).....your ph is good/ no nutes or additives added/ your using RO water/ not overwatering anymore/room temps are good.........well than it has to be the soil causing these toxicity issues..........sorry friend/tried to give you the best advice I could.......good luck and you will need to veg for a long period to shake off this early stress to them....