Child Preachers

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
ayn rand was advocating a naturalistic philosophy in tune with our normal natural healthy instincts while simultaneously rejecting the unnatural, unhealthy, counter-productive mindset of socialists (both democratic and authoritarian)
dawkin's theory walks hand in glove with the objectivist philosophy, and the selfish gene seemed like a biological explanation of why objectivism is right rather than any new groundbreaking insights into evolution, yet he never once mentioned rand, and distances himself from her (i guess to keep the haters from hating) and on the flip side of the coin Jerod Diamond (so many pornstar names these days) spends all his time explaining why we (the western european cultures) are so selfish and mean, and that we should feel real bad about that and sacrifice ourselves and our society so the noble primitives can have a fair chance to grab some of that cargo.

every time i listen to dawkins or read his works i get the impression of an oxford layabout on his velvet fainting couch discussing the meaning of life with a glass of claret in his hand, as his manservant pulls off his riding boots.

also, fuck dawkins, desmond morris is a stone pimp.
Okay, I see the similarities between Dawkins' theory in the Selfish Gene and Objectivism. I have also pointed out the major differences. You got me Googleing Dawkins + Rand, and The Selfish Gene + Rand, and it seems others have also seen the similarities. But nowhere can I find any data linking one to the other, which suggests to me that these two authors have come close to the same ideas, but from completely independent lines of thought and research. I cannot find one piece of information that Dawkins even had Rand in his thoughts while writing that book, if you can please provide links. I think that you are attempting to link the two when there is no link in reality.
I think you're description of Dawkins is spot on except the part of him being a layabout. He is extremely active with an intense schedule of speaking, writing, activist, etc.. Look at how prolific this guy really is, it's amazing. You should send in hate mail, your insights and ad hominem attacks would be much more amusing than what he usually gets. Then we could hear him read your entries on a program like this ;)


[video=youtube;-ZuowNcuGsc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZuowNcuGsc[/video]
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
and on the flip side of the coin Jerod Diamond (so many pornstar names these days) spends all his time explaining why we (the western european cultures) are so selfish and mean, and that we should feel real bad about that and sacrifice ourselves and our society so the noble primitives can have a fair chance to grab some of that cargo.
Not to hijack the thread, but this is the second time you've brought up Diamond and referenced his work (I'm assuming) Guns, Germs, and Steel, with an unusual perspective. Have you read the book?

It's very curious to me because you're seemingly doing the same thing with Dawkins' Selfish Gene, that is assuming they're working from the conclusion backwards with some sort of agenda. I've read that book and also his follow up, Collapse, as well as all of Dawkins' books. From my perspective, inside their works, there is little to no emotion expressed, as emotion doesn't answer anything scientific. They both know going in with any kind of agenda to prove will fail from the start as they're both extremely intimate with the scientific method and it's designed to prevent that exact thing from happening.

Youtube clips or interviews are a different story, Dawkins gets pretty heated in the moment sometimes and he's not the best at hiding it (like Sam Harris, the goddamn master), but that doesn't nullify all the research he's done over his career. I honestly can't blame the guy, he's in a very frustrating field of study.


@ TD, I tweeted Dawkins about the connection between his and Rand's works if there is one, if I get a reply I'll post it in this thread.

@ Keynes, I would also like to see a tangible connection, if you could provide one
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
Not to hijack the thread, but this is the second time you've brought up Diamond and referenced his work (I'm assuming) Guns, Germs, and Steel, with an unusual perspective. Have you read the book?

It's very curious to me because you're seemingly doing the same thing with Dawkins' Selfish Gene, that is assuming they're working from the conclusion backwards with some sort of agenda. I've read that book and also his follow up, Collapse, as well as all of Dawkins' books. From my perspective, inside their works, there is little to no emotion expressed, as emotion doesn't answer anything scientific. They both know going in with any kind of agenda to prove will fail from the start as they're both extremely intimate with the scientific method and it's designed to prevent that exact thing from happening.

Youtube clips or interviews are a different story, Dawkins gets pretty heated in the moment sometimes and he's not the best at hiding it (like Sam Harris, the goddamn master), but that doesn't nullify all the research he's done over his career. I honestly can't blame the guy, he's in a very frustrating field of study.


@ TD, I tweeted Dawkins about the connection between his and Rand's works if there is one, if I get a reply I'll post it in this thread.

@ Keynes, I would also like to see a tangible connection, if you could provide one
reading the selfish gene led me to the inescapable conclusion that dawkins wrote it while sipping claret and popping Quaaludes after reading Atlas Shrugged on his afore-mentioned fainting couch on a long midsummer's eve before the fire in his palatial estate in the cotswalds. i suspect his smoking jacket is real velvet unlike mine, which is really just a bathrobe which barely covers my Tighty Whiteys as i sip Pabst Blue Ribbon from a Mason Jar on the porch of my hovel in the hills above Stockton where i sit on warm nights cleaning my guns and making lists as i listen to the soft popping sounds from my bug zapper. so basically we are the same person. more or less.

also, Jerod Diamond is a dickwad, and his conclusions infuriate me. anyone with a brain can clearly see that short growing seasons followed by long stretches of famine inducing inhospitable weather is what induced hunter/gatherers to become farmers, not any accident of location. in regions where the climate allows food resource gathering to be done at any time of year inevitably lead to a "thats good enough" mentality among peoples living in tropical regions, thus they feel no need to innovate to combat their environment. hostile neighbors, instability and a perilous future cause technical advancement, not fortuitous advantages of vegetation, animal life, latitude or mineral resources. the americas had plenty of natural resources, the horse pig chicken sheep bison and many other animals which could be domesticated, and no particular lack of contagious disease long before the age of discovery (yes there were horses in the new world before the spanish, they were extincted a few centuries before the new world's discovery, but they would still have been around had they been domesticated) the hospitable climate, and relative ease and peace in the americas did not result in a technological arms race like it did in asia minor and europe. this does not mean that europeans and asiatics sabotaged the development of the american native population, particularly in the classical age when the change from small farming communities to walled city states was necessitated by rampaging hordes of nomadic barbarians in the old world, but did not occur in the new.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
reading the selfish gene led me to the inescapable conclusion that dawkins wrote it while sipping claret and popping Quaaludes after reading Atlas Shrugged on his afore-mentioned fainting couch on a long midsummer's eve before the fire in his palatial estate in the cotswalds. i suspect his smoking jacket is real velvet unlike mine, which is really just a bathrobe which barely covers my Tighty Whiteys as i sip Pabst Blue Ribbon from a Mason Jar on the porch of my hovel in the hills above Stockton where i sit on warm nights cleaning my guns and making lists as i listen to the soft popping sounds from my bug zapper. so basically we are the same person. more or less.

I've heard Dawkins respond to a question about pretty much what you're talking about. Somebody asked him during one of his Q and A's about how if 'survival of the fittest' was an accurate representation of the theory of evolution, we should see the same things in different parts of society as well, business practices (which we do), altruism, empathy, etc. Dawkins response was something along the lines of, the theory of evolution only explains the diversity of life over time, it says nothing about moral or ethical behavior in human societies. So whether or not Dawkins was influenced by Rand's work plays no role in the validity of the theory of evolution. It is what it is, if people find similarities between it and other disciplines, so be it.

Your personal opinion of him seems rather shallow, imo


also, Jerod Diamond is a dickwad, and his conclusions infuriate me.
I can tell..

anyone with a brain can clearly see that short growing seasons followed by long stretches of famine inducing inhospitable weather is what induced hunter/gatherers to become farmers, not any accident of location.
He doesn't argue the introduction of agriculture and the domestication of animals (farming) was the result of an accident of location. His main argument is the hunter-gatherer lifestyle was insufficient to support large populations of people. As tribes grew, they required more food than was readily available through exclusively hunting and gathering;

"By selecting and growing those few species of plants and animals that we can eat, so that they constitute 90% rather than 0.1% of the biomass on an acre of land, we obtain far more edible calories per acre. As a result, one acre can feed many more herders and farmers - typically, 10 to 100 times more - than hunter-gatherers"

..and later..

"Taken together, these four factors help us understand why the transition to food production in the Fertile Crescent began around 8500BC, not around 18,500 or 28,500BC. At the latter two dates hunting-gathering was still much more rewarding than incipient food production, because wild mammals were still abundant; wild cereals were not yet abundant; people had not yet developed the inventions necessary for collecting, processing, and storing cereals efficiently; and human population densities were not yet high enough for a large premium to be placed on extracting more calories per acre."


in regions where the climate allows food resource gathering to be done at any time of year inevitably lead to a "thats good enough" mentality among peoples living in tropical regions, thus they feel no need to innovate to combat their environment.
How would you feed growing populations of people?

hostile neighbors, instability and a perilous future cause technical advancement, not fortuitous advantages of vegetation, animal life, latitude or mineral resources. the americas had plenty of natural resources, the horse pig chicken sheep bison and many other animals which could be domesticated, and no particular lack of contagious disease long before the age of discovery (yes there were horses in the new world before the spanish, they were extincted a few centuries before the new world's discovery, but they would still have been around had they been domesticated) the hospitable climate, and relative ease and peace in the americas did not result in a technological arms race like it did in asia minor and europe.
The Americas were vastly inferior to Eurasia when it came to the domestication of animals. "In all, of the world's 148 big wild terrestrial herbivorous mammals - the candidates for domestication - only 14 passed the test." Major 5 include "sheep (west and central Asia), goat (west Asia), cow (Eurasia and North Africa), pig (Eurasia and North Africa), horse (Asia). Minor 9 include "Arabian camel (North Africa), bactrain (two humped camel) (Central Asia), llama (South America, Andes), donkey (North Africa and Asia), reindeer (Northern Eurasia), water buffalo (Southeast Asia), yak (Asia), bali cattle (Southeast Asia), mithan (Asia)



"Eurasian peoples happened to inherit many more species of domesticatible large wild mammalian herbivores than did peoples of the other continents. That outcome, with all of its momentous advantages for Eurasian societies, stemmed from three basic facts of mammalian geography, history, and biology. First, Eurasia, befitting its large area and ecological diversity, started out with the most candidates. Second, Australia and the Americas, but not Eurasia or Africa, lost most of their candidates in a massive wave of late-Pleistocene extinctions - possibly because the mammals of the former continents had the misfortune to be first exposed to humans suddenly and late in our evolutionary history, when our hunting skills were already highly developed. Finally, a higher percentage of the surviving candidates proved suitable for domestication on Eurasia than on the other continents.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
in the americas you forget the bison, the dall's sheep, the alpaca, native horses (which could have been domesticated had the natives thought of the idea) deer (many species) goats, the capybara, javelina, and many more. diamond excludes animmals he deems usuited to domestication simply because they have not been doesticated yet. given time, and the inclination almost any critter can be made domestic as long as you dont get near his kicking feet and biting mouth. the first sheep were not very likely to be placid pets, and when given ample reason wild critters can become domestic quite rapidly, as seen in the turkey. from clever and cunning wild critter to dimwitted slaughterhouse victim in less than 300 years.

diamond ignores species he deems unsuitable by pretending they dont exist or claiming they cannot be domesticated, but we have ostrich ranches in california, there were none in africa before the evil white man came. afriocan tribes acheived "good enough" as did the amerindians, polynesians, and many others around the world. with few violent and acquisitive neighbors they didnt have to have a technological arms race. even the aztecs progressed to a certain point (lat4e stone age) and then said "meh, thats good enough". the real oddity is why africa remained so backwards despite proximity to egypt, europe and asia minor, and their technologically advanced societies. amerindians took to metal working like a pig to slop once they saw how it was done, and south american metal crafts are quite good despite their (as diamond considers it) lack of resources for advancement. they have adopted a european culture of industriousness and endeador, while many other cultures (arabia, africa, the carribean and polynesia) are in retrograde slumps. diamond's "answers" give more questions than anything else, and his theories are incompatible with evidence.

diamond wants to be the "good whitey" and explain to the cargo cultists that it was just luck and chance that made europeans and asians prosper and advance while they wallowed in the depths of the stone age, and it's not their fault that they have no cargo, since whitey simply found it themselves. diamond encourages the cargo cultist to continue blaming whitey for his poverty and tells whitey he should feel guilty for being part of a prosperous society when other societies are so poor. very much like the assholes who blame the US for mexico's poverty when they are a nation rich in silver gold iron coal oil natural gas, seafod arable land, fresh water, verdant forests emeralds daimonds, and many other resources which could make them prosperous too, if tyhey were not saddled with a corrupt neo-marxist government run by 7 corrupt and grasping families.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
in the americas you forget the bison, the dall's sheep, the alpaca, native horses (which could have been domesticated had the natives thought of the idea) deer (many species) goats, the capybara, javelina, and many more. diamond excludes animmals he deems usuited to domestication simply because they have not been doesticated yet. given time, and the inclination almost any critter can be made domestic as long as you dont get near his kicking feet and biting mouth. the first sheep were not very likely to be placid pets, and when given ample reason wild critters can become domestic quite rapidly, as seen in the turkey. from clever and cunning wild critter to dimwitted slaughterhouse victim in less than 300 years.
Diamond argues what was domesticated, not what could have been domesticated.

He also lists why certain animals are more favorable to domesticate than others, like herbivores over carnivores;

"Why did the other 134 species fail? To which conditions was Francis Galton referring, when he spoke of those other species as "destined to perpetual wilderness"? The answer follows from the Anna Karenina principle. To be domesticated, a candidate wild species must possess many different characteristics. Lack of any single required characteristic dooms efforts at domestication, just as it dooms efforts at building a happy marriage. Playing marriage counselor to the zebra/human couple and other ill-sorted pairs, we can recognize at least six groups of reasons for failed domestication.

Diet. Every time that an animal eats a plant or another animal, the conversion of food biomass into the consumer's biomass involves an efficiency of much less than 100%: typically around 10%. That is, it takes around 10,000 pounds of corn to grow a 1,000 pound cow. If instead you want to grow 1,000 pounds of carnivore, you have to feed it 10,000 pounds of herbivore grown on 100,000 pounds of corn. Even among herbivores and omnivores, many species, like koalas, are too finicky in their plant preferences to recommend themselves as farm animals."

The other 5 groups are; Growth rate, problems of captive breeding, nasty disposition, tendency to panic, and social structure.


diamond ignores species he deems unsuitable by pretending they dont exist or claiming they cannot be domesticated
Again, his work (specifically G,G & S) only deals with what happened and why it happened the way it did, not what could have happened or what would have happened if something different had happened.

but we have ostrich ranches in california, there were none in africa before the evil white man came. afriocan tribes acheived "good enough" as did the amerindians, polynesians, and many others around the world. with few violent and acquisitive neighbors they didnt have to have a technological arms race. even the aztecs progressed to a certain point (lat4e stone age) and then said "meh, thats good enough". the real oddity is why africa remained so backwards despite proximity to egypt, europe and asia minor, and their technologically advanced societies.
Lack of abundant resources/technologies/competition that would have enabled further advancement as Eurasia did.

diamond wants to be the "good whitey" and explain to the cargo cultists that it was just luck and chance that made europeans and asians prosper and advance while they wallowed in the depths of the stone age, and it's not their fault that they have no cargo, since whitey simply found it themselves. diamond encourages the cargo cultist to continue blaming whitey for his poverty and tells whitey he should feel guilty for being part of a prosperous society when other societies are so poor. very much like the assholes who blame the US for mexico's poverty when they are a nation rich in silver gold iron coal oil natural gas, seafod arable land, fresh water, verdant forests emeralds daimonds, and many other resources which could make them prosperous too, if tyhey were not saddled with a corrupt neo-marxist government run by 7 corrupt and grasping families.
This is highly inaccurate. I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion.

"Authors are regularly asked by journalists to summarize a long book in one sentence. For this book, here is such a sentence: "History followed different courses for different peoples because of differences among peoples' environments, not because of biological differences among people themselves.""
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
Diamond argues what was domesticated, not what could have been domesticated.

He also lists why certain animals are more favorable to domesticate than others, like herbivores over carnivores;

"Why did the other 134 species fail? To which conditions was Francis Galton referring, when he spoke of those other species as "destined to perpetual wilderness"? The answer follows from the Anna Karenina principle. To be domesticated, a candidate wild species must possess many different characteristics. Lack of any single required characteristic dooms efforts at domestication, just as it dooms efforts at building a happy marriage. Playing marriage counselor to the zebra/human couple and other ill-sorted pairs, we can recognize at least six groups of reasons for failed domestication.

Diet. Every time that an animal eats a plant or another animal, the conversion of food biomass into the consumer's biomass involves an efficiency of much less than 100%: typically around 10%. That is, it takes around 10,000 pounds of corn to grow a 1,000 pound cow. If instead you want to grow 1,000 pounds of carnivore, you have to feed it 10,000 pounds of herbivore grown on 100,000 pounds of corn. Even among herbivores and omnivores, many species, like koalas, are too finicky in their plant preferences to recommend themselves as farm animals."

The other 5 groups are; Growth rate, problems of captive breeding, nasty disposition, tendency to panic, and social structure.




Again, his work (specifically G,G & S) only deals with what happened and why it happened the way it did, not what could have happened or what would have happened if something different had happened.



Lack of abundant resources/technologies/competition that would have enabled further advancement as Eurasia did.



This is highly inaccurate. I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion.

"Authors are regularly asked by journalists to summarize a long book in one sentence. For this book, here is such a sentence: "History followed different courses for different peoples because of differences among peoples' environments, not because of biological differences among people themselves.""
i have no desire to ramble through his theories explaining why they are faulty, but he insists that it was mere acts of fortuitous placement that resulted in asiatic, indo europeans and europeans becoming dominant and prosperous, however the fact is several critters which COULD have been domesticated, and several which are now domesticated by europeans and asians despite their being endemic to regions where the locals either were unable to domesticate them, or for some reason unwilling to do so strongly indicates his reasoning that european and asiatic dominance of the world is an accident is a mere lucky chance is obviously fatally flawed. native americans could have domesticated the turkey were they inclined to do so, and had the necessary talents. they did not, this fault lies with them, not the europeans nefarious plot to undermine other peoples whom they didnt even meet until the 16th century in the case of the native americans, nor the paternalistic attitudes which are alleged to be the reason so many africans still live in mud huts as hunter gatherers. his entire preachy narrative is based on his white guilt, not science or logic.

even his assertions regarding agriculture and the food crops available is flawed at it's core. many of the staple crops around the world today are new world products, yet the native americans never developed these crops beyond the simple native plants they were when europeans came to the new world. aztec corn is very much the primitive wild maize that still grows in central america today, while the maize grown by north american tribes was much more sophisticated, but still a primitive plant when compared to the crops european selective breeding created to make it the powerhouse food crop it has become today.

primitive incan potatoes are still grown in the highlands of peru and ecuador, while modern cultivars are superior in every way imaginable. even the lowly banana is in no way similar to the native plants used by polynesians and the peoples of indochina befoire the arrival of modern agricultural processes.

these crops would not exist without the knowledge and expertise of people adapted to the harsh long winters of the northern regions, which is the point. long winters (or hot dry crop slaying drought summers) were the driving force behind technology like the foggue for long term storage of grains, clay pots for preservation of foods which would otherwise rot, fermentation, cheese making, wine making, oil pressing and a myriad other ingenoious innovations designed solely for the purpose of storing food for long winters.

the tale of the ant and the grasshopper makes clear the difference between cultures who faced annual tribulations on the brink of starvation and the primitive societies that never needed to develop beyond the simplest of agricultural techniques. diamond does not recognize this driving force for innovation, he attributes the superiority of western and asian agriculture and technology to a roll of the dice. he wraps his theory in the magic cloak of anti-racism, but even today when exposed to the freely available knowledge of modern agriculture, and gifts of technology and materials to assist backwards cultures in becoming self sufficient, many choose often to simply remain backwards, due to the "good enough" mentality engrained in their societies. instead of apologizing for the advantages of western and asian cultures diamond should critique the deliberate refusal to accept progress among retrograde societies. he chooses not to, and instead attempts to elevate them to the status of the ""Noble Savage" that came into fashion in the 1960's and 70's resulting in much embarrassment among sociologists and ethno-bilogists with the revelations that the Dogone Tribe of afrca had no special knowledge of astronomy and the "Tasaday" of the philippines were an entire fiction created by enterprising locals to get some sweet sweet researcher dollars into their town, and several other rarely mention scandals in academia. the "Noble Savage" movement spent decades searching for their dream of a people in tune with nature, living simply so that others may simply live, with secret special knowledge rejected by the evil european ancestors in favor of the despoiling technologies they felt were destroying the "Natural Balance" this movement, of which diamond is one of the few remaining adherents lionizes primitive societies for their simplicity, and paints rosey pictures of their simpler way of life that preserves the natural wonders unlike western society that simply pillages. they shut their eyes and plug their ears when faced with evidence that contradicts their preconceived notions of the "Nobility" of primitive societies, like copper stripmines created by the miwauk peoples long before the hated white man ever came to the new world, even before leif erricsson, or the man caused extinctions of the native horses of the great plains and several other species which were eaten into extinction by native americans. Jerrod Diamond is selling an agenda not science.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
i have no desire to ramble through his theories explaining why they are faulty, but he insists that it was mere acts of fortuitous placement that resulted in asiatic, indo europeans and europeans becoming dominant and prosperous, however the fact is several critters which COULD have been domesticated, and several which are now domesticated by europeans and asians despite their being endemic to regions where the locals either were unable to domesticate them, or for some reason unwilling to do so strongly indicates his reasoning that european and asiatic dominance of the world is an accident is a mere lucky chance is obviously fatally flawed.

Again, I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion. Could you cite any kind of source, if you've got the book, could you quote a passage which you believe supports your opinion? I think that would help out a lot.

I don't understand how a species that could have, or was domesticated in the future, beyond the time periods Diamond refers to (which significantly contribute to the success of each human population at the time) relates to his conclusions. In other words, I don't understand how it is relevant to this topic. It seems to me it's similar to me arguing "WW2 bombers didn't have electronic targeting equipment, so their hit/miss ratio was worse than Gulf War pilots" and you replying "But Gulf War pilots had electronic targeting equipment, so clearly in the 1940's the training was worse".

So what if there were animals that could have been domesticated? What does that matter if they weren't? Like I said before, Diamond argues what was, not what might have been, based on the evidence.

native americans could have domesticated the turkey were they inclined to do so, and had the necessary talents. they did not, this fault lies with them, not the europeans nefarious plot to undermine other peoples whom they didnt even meet until the 16th century in the case of the native americans, nor the paternalistic attitudes which are alleged to be the reason so many africans still live in mud huts as hunter gatherers. his entire preachy narrative is based on his white guilt, not science or logic.
The Mesoamerican's domesticated the wild turkey. It just was not a substantial enough animal to contribute a significant change to ancient society. They couldn't plow fields with it like Europeans could an Ox, the couldn't ride it like Europeans could a horse, they couldn't feed a tribe of people for a week like Europeans could with a large elk or moose.

"the paternalistic attitudes which are alleged to be the reason so many africans still live in mud huts as hunter gatherers" - what does that mean?

'his entire preachy narrative is based on his white guilt, not science or logic" - this is where I need you to cite a source to support that claim. From what I've read, his position states the complete opposite. That different people's circumstances depend almost solely on their environment, not on 'white guilt'. Again, what led you to reach such conclusions?

even his assertions regarding agriculture and the food crops available is flawed at it's core. many of the staple crops around the world today are new world products, yet the native americans never developed these crops beyond the simple native plants they were when europeans came to the new world.
I'm not sure if that's true, but if it is, I'd imagine it would be because the native Americans were busy fighting off invading European advancements. Not a whole lot of time to improve upon agriculture when 80% of your tribe is sharpening arrows and preparing for war..

Do you have any kind of measurements or figures to support the notion that Native Americans never independently developed agriculture (because I know the Aztecs, Mayans and Incas did, all independently), and I've read a few different sources that conclude the Mississippi-Illinois area was extremely fertile around 1400-1600, and Native American hunter gatherer type tribes thrived. The entire midwest is ideal for farming.


aztec corn is very much the primitive wild maize that still grows in central america today, while the maize grown by north american tribes was much more sophisticated, but still a primitive plant when compared to the crops european selective breeding created to make it the powerhouse food crop it has become today.
I'm not sure what your point is, European corn is better than North American corn. That would seem obvious as humans have had longer to selectively breed it in the old world.

primitive incan potatoes are still grown in the highlands of peru and ecuador, while modern cultivars are superior in every way imaginable. even the lowly banana is in no way similar to the native plants used by polynesians and the peoples of indochina befoire the arrival of modern agricultural processes.
Same point, European shit is better. Same reason, why would that surprise you?

these crops would not exist without the knowledge and expertise of people adapted to the harsh long winters of the northern regions, which is the point. long winters (or hot dry crop slaying drought summers) were the driving force behind technology like the foggue for long term storage of grains, clay pots for preservation of foods which would otherwise rot, fermentation, cheese making, wine making, oil pressing and a myriad other ingenoious innovations designed solely for the purpose of storing food for long winters.
Of course they would.

the tale of the ant and the grasshopper makes clear the difference between cultures who faced annual tribulations on the brink of starvation and the primitive societies that never needed to develop beyond the simplest of agricultural techniques. diamond does not recognize this driving force for innovation, he attributes the superiority of western and asian agriculture and technology to a roll of the dice. he wraps his theory in the magic cloak of anti-racism, but even today when exposed to the freely available knowledge of modern agriculture, and gifts of technology and materials to assist backwards cultures in becoming self sufficient, many choose often to simply remain backwards, due to the "good enough" mentality engrained in their societies.
Which societies are you referring to?

But again, what do you mean by 'anti-racism'? You seem to be painting Diamond as having a specific kind of agenda, so why not just come out and say it? What do you believe he's trying to push?

From what I've read of his, it simply seems like he's visited places and asked natives questions and attributed the answers to actual scientific findings. Your adamant accusations of some alternate agenda actually shocked me because I hadn't interpreted his books any other way except scientific, emotionless. The Pulitzer Prize stamp on the front of G,G & S has to count for something, right?


instead of apologizing for the advantages of western and asian cultures diamond should critique the deliberate refusal to accept progress among retrograde societies.
It doesn't seem like you're considering the vast implications. It also does't seem like you're considering the difficulty of such a task. There are multiple variables standing in the way of average Africans accepting/transitioning to western practices. Vast difficulties. Much of which completely out of their hands. Most of them are just like most of us, just trying to provide for their families. I wouldn't expect much more, and you can't.

Jerrod Diamond is selling an agenda not science.
Outline his agenda, in as simple terms as you can.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
see again we have an issue of me having to go to the library, checking that turd out again and going through its interminable longwinded preachyness.

point 1: why whitey got so much cargo?

diamond insists that it is mere chance that provided eurasia with the bounty of magical treasures that allowed technological advancement and eventual dominance. therefore more primitive cultures and societies dont need to adapt to more modern and effective methods (the european or asian methods) but rather should rest assured that had things been different they too could have been on top. he reinforces the belief of cargo cultists and primitivists hold dear, that whitey got his cargo through rapine and pillage and thus is unworthy of emulation. he could not be more wrong

point 2: the "bounty" of eurasia

eurasia's great land mass and multiple societies ALL advanced well beyond the hunter/gatherer stage before the classical era even began, this was not due to chance or luck or the "bounty" of their environment. some parts of eurasia are as barren and lifeless as the sahara desert, and others are teeming with critters of no particular utility to any society. some areas have copper tin iron and wood others do not. diamond implies that eurasia is a wonderland, a veritable garden of eden with all the cargo a cultist could want just waiting to be picked up off the dirt. in fact the hostile and unforgiving regions of the far north and the utter south led to the fastest and most dynamic change in society as well as the most important technological breakthroughs. the harsh stepes and deserts of ais minor and arabia led to the creation of the city state and specialization of the workforce, the cold northern mountains and forests of western europe created the foggue and the concept of grain silage and food storage, the celts created steel and spread this knowledge through eurasia like wildfire, the romans and greeks established the precepts of the sciences we know today, northern europeans created the science of plant breeding and honed it like a knife to feed the populations which could otherwise not be supported on short growing seasons with long dead winters. meanwhile the hunter/gatherers of new guinea invented the stone headed club, called it a day and dint bother inventing anything new for about 3000 years. because they didnt need to. shit was Good Enough.

they didnt need to develop methods to feed large populations because they didnt have any large populations. infant mortality, stone age living, accidents and occasional wars between tribes as indistinguishable as the hutus and the tootsies took care of the rest. diamond sees this as admirable and worthy of respect. i see it as what it is. primitivism.

native american agriculture prior to the age of discovery:

small patch farming with simple primitive crops and relatively few livestock critters. they had no particular agricultural science beyond the stone age technologies of tillage, and irrigation silage was pretty much leather sacks and wicker baskets, unsuited for storage of grains beyond a single season, while 2000 years before, celts had developed methods to keep viable grain for decades. most reggions of meso american indians had their own techniques, incan and mayan irrigation was ifinitely superior to that of the crow, miwauk or solanos, while the plains indians knew less of agriculture than the average new york apartment dweller. it was alien to their society which followed the buffalo, and did not farm.

the meso amreicans didnt ever to my knowledge domesticate anything more brangling and obstinate that the dog, they certainly never domesticated the turkey. they might have caught a few wild turkeys and kept them for later consumption but they didnt raise them breed them or keep them. had they felt the inclination they could have domesticated the bison to plow feilds, just as the inca and maya could have hitched llamas and alpacas to wagons for drayage, had they ever invented the wheel. coulda, shoulda didnt. because the old ways were good enough. they didnt need it, so they didnt pursue it. Thats my point, which defies diamond's silly theories. if the native americans NEEDED dray animals or domestic food herds they COULD have but they didnt.

thats where diamond's folly lies. he essentially BLAMES eurasia for their success and chalks it all up to luck when it was the very adversity that they suffered which drove our ancestors to invent the wheel, construct roads and domesticate plants and animals, while other societies didnt NEED to.

point 3: the magic cloak of anti-racism and post modernism

diamond wraps all his theories in the idea that the sheer luck and fortuitous placement of the eurasian peoples led to their success, while less advanced societies were simply unfortunate in their environment. he has it ass backwards.
he weeps and wails piteously about new guinean people who still today have not entered the modern world and subsist still as hunter gatherers with only limited access to agricultural technologies. all the while the new guinea indigenous people are surrounded with people who are more than glad to share their agricultural technologies with the, and international aid groups who have and will continue to attempt to drag them into the modern world while they largely refuse to accept these new ideas and technologies, because their society has trained them to say, good enough.

another example, the australian aborigines. they still live in one of two ways, leaches on the white mans society, or hunter gatherer bush dwellers. a casual perusal of the austrailian peoples experiences with aborigines will make it clear that most of them have simply accepted that its good enough, whether is living off the white man's charity or hunting iguanas in the bush, its' good enough and thats all they want.

and the american blacks. as a rural type person i know plenty of farmers, black white and brown, and as a rule they work too hard for too little and get shit on by city folks, but i have NEVER seen anything as bad as a rural hardworking black man who comes face to face with the city negro. my friend had come to visit me in town in preparation for a weekend's fishing in clear lake, and while stopping for grub at a local diner we met his opposite number. the city dudes treated him like a mongrel dog, deriding his clothes because they were made for work, and show the signs of labour, insulting his speech and manners as "selling out" and calling him a house nigger because his work boots aint timbalands, and they have seen actual work. these silly minstrel show performers had sequins and rhinestones on their dungarees, jewelry in their ears and rings on their fingers, all of it cheap and gaudy, and fancy "work" boots with no laces or athletic shoes that would never see a basketball court or a football field. their clothing was ill fitting, and clearly designed to impress dim witted bimbos, like a peacock's plumage. we discussed their "culture" at length during our fishin weekend and we both came to similar conclusions, these were simple stone age tribal dickwads wrapped in the trendy fashions of modern society. niether of us figured they were worth a squirt of piss, and we didnt feel bad at all about knockin a few bejeweled teeth together. maybe someday ill hammer out the dent in my passenger door my buddy made with one of em's head, but probably not any time soon.

those chumps were a prime example of why diamond is a fool. when a social structure is established that says good enough is good enough that structure is extremely difficult to remove, except through need. the kind of need that you find in dire straights and bad times. the modern welfare system ensures that those who have accepted the good enough mentality will remain on welfare for generations because it is, after all, good enough. white black brown or yellow, a lot of people have accepted this good enough mentality, but none quite so wholeheartedly as the urban negro stereotype that despite being a stereotype, you can find in any medium to large city. we are cultivating an entire society of moorlocks in our inner cities who are dependent, but not at all grateful for the largesse that our government bestows upon them. our society will regret this foolishness eventually, but these are the types of mentalities and attitudes that diamond ignores in his rush to be the anti-racist post-modern hero of the cargo cultists. good times and noodle salad dont make a society progress, hard times do. diamond is a fool.

point four: the vast difficulties of moving out of the stone age

for nearly 100 years liberia, a nation formed by emancipated blacks from the americas, was the most sophisticated, stable, self-sufficient and progressive (in the real sense, not the political bullshit sense) nation in africa. until their neighbors were released from the colonial chains of the french, dutch and belgians, and immediately devolved into the savagery that they enjoyed, and which kept their populations down before the age of exploration. this rampant tribal violence destroyed the peace and stability of liberia and that nation is still a shambles. diamond doesnt recognize that nations can devolve, not just evolve and his theories do not recognize the insuitability for primitive societies to embrace modern technology not because they are genetically inferior, or physically or mentally unable to learn the methods of western societies, but that their primitive socila structure PRECLUDES their acceptance of the new technologies and systems unless there is a crucial ned to embrace this new technology or die. diamond's reverence for retrograde societies is evident in the words he writes and the manner in which he lionizes their "virtues" he is so in ove with the "noble Savage" theories of the 60's and 70's that he blinds himself to the simple fact that if somebody doesnt WANT to learn to use a plow or ride a horse, barring enslavement, you simply cant force him to do so. many primitive societies have rejected the help offered to lift them out of the stone age, and others have simply attached themselves to the underbelly of a more advanced society and feed on it's leavings like a ramoray. Need drives advancement not plenty. diamond doesnt understand this.

diamonmd is selling his agenda of the Noble Savage, a discredited theory rejected long ago by real science, after numerous embarassing hoaxes, and scams.

as to his pulitzer prize, walter Duranty got one of those too, for painting stalin as a kindly saint and father figure to his people.

even Barack Obama got a Nobel Peace Prize, nope, awards and shit dont mean diddly to me.
 
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