Chiller Or Air Conditioning

toast master

toast master

Well-Known Member
Hey all ..... looking for a little input on the use of a chiller verses room air conditioning ..
I have no experence with the use of a chiller and am trying to decide if its more effecient to chill just the tank or the area enclosing the tank
the tanks are below the flood tables and i was thinking of insulating the entire area seperate from the room ...
the area is approx. 3x4x8 holding 4 25 gal rez for flood and drain sog

With a ittle effort i could easly make it a cold box so to speek...

any input on chillers would be much appreciated..

temps here in the summer often get 100 deg. +
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
Wow so open ended. First off most commercially sold chillers are garbage. tyo pically they are made to sit entirely inside your dwelling so that any heat removed from the water is just exhausted into your home. A good chiller that sits out side retails for about $1500 or more. The cost to make an even better chiller with the compressor outside would run about $850 to $1000. That is one set up so as to be usuable all year round down to 40 degreesbelow zero F. The cheapest alternative is to have your grow room right in front of a window. Then you just use a cheap Sears window air conditioner and cool the grow room. If you want the reservoir cooler than the room then run a few tubes of titanium in front of the airconditioner cold air exhaust. Not too adjustable but work able.

To make the airconditioner usable all year round all that is required in most climates is to install a head pressure device. They are sold on eBay for about $50 to $75. What they do is control the fan that is used to cool the returning freon before it enters the compressor. It senses the temperature of the gas and controls the speed of the fan. If you live in a really cold climate then you need to add a small electric heating cord that raps around the compressor. It sells retail for about $40. I also add a filter and sight glass so you can check on the condition of you system.. wheter it is drawing in air, moisture etc. If your a good DIY person I can supply you with all the info to make a full scale chiller out of a window air conditioner. It would no longer be a window air conditioner as it would have a heater exchanger instaed of a heat evacuator. I have made over 20 of them. The worse part is you need to know someone who does refrigeration or airconditioning repair either home, commercial or auto. I have salt water aquariums so of course my units are always made for that reason. Besides my refrigeration guy loves bud.
 
toast master

toast master

Well-Known Member
thanks fatman for the info...... I'll sit down and try to pound out some drawings to see what would be easier.... i'll let you know if i need the info on the conditioneer...
thanks again... toasty
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
The cheapest and simplest way to start is simple air cooled tubes for your lights. Push air from outside through the tubes and back outside. use quality duct tape (not the cheap cloth like duct tape. You want tape that is actually ually thin metal with a adhesive. Cover each and every joint with the tape. Us, metal ducting as much as possible to lower friction. Insulate the ducting. Then use air conditioning to remove excess heat not removed by the cooling tubes. Never bother with indoor chiller unless the unit is in another room that can use the heat output. If that situation is not available, then get and outdoor chiller or modify a split unit. A large, quality. long coil (20 feet) titanium heat exchanger alone costs about $300. Another $150 to have a refrigeration guy cut the condenser out and replace it Will the exchanger and reinstall refrigerant. Good out door units run about $2500, if it is a unit that can be run all year round. The best efficiency without a head pressure controller is at an out door temp between about 65 and 85 degrees (not higher temps). With a head pressure device it should not matter much what the ambient temp is as long as it is above -40 degrees F and below about 90 degrees. You do need to heat the compressor when it is colder than about 60 degrees to keep the oil fluid.

Cooling with an indoor chiller is very expensive because your simply moving the heat with the chiller not removing it. Using an indoor chiller in combination with an oust side exhausting air conditioner mean moving the heat twice. I use water cooled lights with home made split unit chillers made from window air conditioners. I also use home made spit unit air conditioning but I set the temp high and use CO2 so as to use the air condition more for dehumidification than cooling. My day time temps always hit at least 90 degrees CO2 is cheaper than air conditioning and with misted aero in chambers and very large tubes DO of nutrients is not an issue.
 
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disposition84

Well-Known Member
A chiller is great because you have constant control over your res temps and can absolutely avoid rootrot, downside they put out a lot of heat so I'd suggest not using it inside your room.

As for the commercial chillers being garbage that's simply untrue. For the price they are, they do the job adequately. Just be sure to get one that's more than you need as it's discouraging going for a smaller unit that has to work overtime to get the job done. I have used two different commercial chillers and both performed quite well and let me keep my temps exactly where I wanted them even in 100+ heat outside.

With temps reaching 100+ you're going to probably need a combination of ac and chiller to fight off that kind of heat and ensure all goes well.
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
The typical chiller sold typically for aquarium use is sad for for what you receive. Most of them have a heat exchanger comprised of just a few feet of titanium pipe. Unless you put out at least $850 to a $1000 they do not even come with an expansion valve, yet alone a refrigerant drier or a site glass. To get a chiller with those features your talking $1250 to $1500. For a sizeable units, say a 1200 to 2200 BTU split unit unit with those features plus a comprseeor heater and head prsessure device your talking about $2000 or more. I build spit units out of brand new window units and large titanium exchamgers for about $600. Using one simply to maintain reservoir temops is not much of a method of judging a chiller. If all I need was to chill a nutrient resrvoir I would simply put the resrvoir out side the grow area and use fans for evaporative cooling. That is good for at least 10 to 15 degrees below the room temperature where the resrvoir is located. IMHO Little/cheap chillers are good for small grows, not much else. They are costly, inefficient and nearly always poorly constructed. Due to have many reef aquariums I have been using chillers for over 20 years. I gave up on small cheap units a long time ago. I have several that have sat unused from the factory for at least 10years. I ahve thrown away several dozen over the years as they are seldom worth repairing.
 
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disposition84

Well-Known Member
I guess it depends on your budget and experience with HVAC units. Having no experience and a budget of under 1k, I was able to chill 80g worth of nutes and keep a consistent and appropriate temperature with a single chiller I got at my local store for 850. Have been using it for few years now without a single hiccup, and would easily consider it one of the best investments I've made to my system.

That's just my .02 though, you're obviously more experienced and some of what you're saying is over my head and well above my HVAC understanding.
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
Wow, taking it kinda personal aren't you?

$200 Retail for a 1200 BTU (1 hp) air conditioner. $450 for parts off ebay. $100 to $150 for refrigeration man. Thats $750 to $800 for a split unit chiller that can be used all year round. Most retailers want about $800 for an indoor 1/4 hp chiller. The highest skill involved in the project ect is picking the parts out. Second is a few solder or flare joints followed by wiring up the temperature controller. All simple to acquire DIY skills. The only difficult part is usually done by the refrigeration person. He needs to vacuum test for leaks fill the unit and take tow measurements. With these measurements he is able to adjust the expansion valve for optimal efficiency. It is not all that difficult. It would take maybe two pages to walk someone through the job if they have average DIY skills. It's not rocket science. A little plumbing, drill a couple holes in your exterior wall and a small amount of simple 120 volt wiring.
 
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disposition84

Well-Known Member
I'm not taking it personal at all, I'm just explaining that from the perspective of someone who has absolutely no HVAC experience that all sounds difficult and out of my realm personally. I wish I had the skills to do those things myself, but unfortunately I do not. I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm willing to bet that the OP has little to no HVAC experience as well. 1/4hp chillers typically are not near 800, they're in the 450-500 range. Though this is probably not going to be enough to cool 100g of water, given the heat expectancy that he had mentioned. The 1/2hp chillers can be had for 850ish, and should be able to do the job depending on the specs, and can be used year round as well.

Again, I'm not taking it personal or upset or anything. I'm simply stating that for the same price as a DIY project, which could be out of the abilities of the OP, he can have a premade unit with a warranty and something that is also housed in a neat little package and get the job done just fine.

There have been numerous times that I've wished I had HVAC abilities, dealing with AC and WC especially, but I'd say a good majority of the people on here don't have experience enough to handle the project.

I would be curious to read a writeup if you're willing, and I'm sure all the hydro guys and gals would appreciate it as well.
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
disposition84 said:
I'm not taking it personal at all, I'm just explaining that from the perspective of someone who has absolutely no HVAC experience that all sounds difficult and out of my realm personally. I wish I had the skills to do those things myself, but unfortunately I do not. I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm willing to bet that the OP has little to no HVAC experience as well. Your entire responses are out on the limb. 1/4hp chillers typically are not near 800, they're in the 450-500 range. You must be looking at some really sad chillers them. http://www.marinedepot.com/1_4_HP_Current_USA_Prime_Drop_In_Chiller_w_Single_Stage_Thermostat_1_4_HP_Less_Drop_In_Aquarium_Chillers-Current_USA-CU02600-FICHDICQ-CU02600-vi.html Plus you would have to consider this same chiller would cost more at a local reatil store. Though this is probably not going to be enough to cool 100g of water, given the heat expectancy that he had mentioned. The 1/2hp chillers can be had for 850ish, and should be able to do the job depending on the specs, and can be used year round as well. Sure maybe $800 for a chinese piece of junk. And if you have not the capability for a simple DIY project you also likely do not have the math abilities to calculate the BTU you need to sexrtract so you hve no idea what a chiller can acy\tually do in the way of removing the BTU's you need remove. The spec charts show only what a chiller can remove from a a set number of gallons if the water is flowing at the same cosnsistent rate indicate in the chart. This is always a slow rate. I highly doubt you can transfer that data to usable data. ie you have no idea of a chillers real capacity.

Again, I'm not taking it personal or upset or anything. Then why are u you still making ludicrous base less argument. I'm simply stating that for the same price as a DIY project, NOT which could be out of the abilities of the OP, he can have a premade unit with a warranty and something that is also housed in a neat little package and get the job done just fine. Warranty on a turd just gets you another turd If you are willing to pay a butt load of shipping costs. Just be cause you seem to prefer the easy capitalistic method of just buying what ever the local retailer sells does not mean all others do. I am simply offering up and alternative to others that are not as you are. If using an inefficient, over priced, under built, sad chiller is what turns your crank and keeps you at your joy stick, go for it dude.

There have been numerous times that I've wished I had HVAC abilities, dealing with AC and WC especially, but I'd say a good majority of the people on here don't have experience enough to handle the project. And maybe many of others would like to learn how. So quit your babbling ub nless you want to learn something abut how to build a quality chiller for aout 1/3 of retail. In the time I have spent rebutting your drivel I could have written instructions. Does that make you feel special.

I would be curious to read a writeup if you're willing, and I'm sure all the hydro guys and gals would appreciate it as well. [/QUOTE]
Wasted to much time writing the rebuttal. Maybe this week end.
Click to expand...
 
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disposition84

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what your problem is, I'm not trying to attack you at all. I was simply stating that prefabricated chillers work just fine for what you need. I'm not here to steal the OP's thread simply to state that there are plenty of chillers that work just fine and offer my experiences with chillers.

I appreciate you're offering another suggestion, and would still be curious to see a writeup on how to do it as I'm curious myself, especially if it doesn't take that long at all. I never once bashed your idea saying it wasn't a good solution, I was simply giving my experiences with prefabricated chillers and how they work just fine, and are in fact not garbage. If you can build it yourself that's awesome and I wish I had those abilities, all I'm saying is that not everyone does and that a prefabricated chiller might be a good solution for those scenarios.

I also respect the fact that you know what you're doing and appear to be a very educated person, and if you'd like to stop bickering and post a productive thread on how to actually make the chiller that would be awesome.
 
fluffygrrrl

fluffygrrrl

Well-Known Member
I know this is an old thread, so I don't know if you are still around fatman. But I am very interested in making my central air unit work year round! When the ambient temps are below 55, regular a/c doesn't work. So you say I just need a head pressure duct? If I went to the nearest heating/ac company, would they know what I was talking about if I asked them to fix my compressor? I have been looking at 5 ton frost box units or excel air units that work in cold weather, but they cost $7000! My other option was the mini splits, but they cost $4500 for 5 tons, and I had to buy 3 of them to get 5 tons worth. I bought a 5 ton central air this summer for $200 with coil and everything, but never installed it because I didn't think it would work in the winter. Now this gives me hope. If you have any other info please let me know. Or if anyone else has any more info, please don't be afraid to post it! I don't know why people always try to say negative stuff when you offer great info on diy. Some people can't afford picture perfect name brand stuff. That kind of talk makes people decide not to post a great ideas.
 
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