Cloning a Triploid ?

So, according to your last comment, only stress and mutations cause deformities?

I have to disagree on that JewGrow. Clones of clones do have a great rate, however if you are talking about cloning a strain off a strain for years on end, then no. Eventually you will start getting deformities, as I showed quite clearly in my post. Taking cuttings over and over off of each and every harvest will eventually cause problems. There is a reason we use mothers, rather then cloning off of our clones. If you are talking about cloning a strain for a couple years that is one thing, but long term stability of a strain comes from less cloning. Ask anyone that has kept a strain around for more then a few years....

This is simple botany when it comes to annuals (like cannabis) that have a specific life cycle of birth/flourish/death/rebirth. Your idea that new growth will always be better is based on looking at perennials and plants that have more then a yearly life cycle. The same holds true, but when looking at long life-span plants it is hard to see the deformities and mutations because they are over such a long time span. You would, in fact, need several lifetimes to see a tree mutate in this way. It's called Genetic Drift. Look at it this way, over 10 years, with 4 harvest a year, you are going through 40 clone generations. Now look into genetic drift and see what I mean.

Here are some references for you.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2461419
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift
http://www.apsnet.org/edcenter/advanced/topics/PopGenetics/Pages/geneticdrift.aspx

It is hard to debate all of your references, but your arguments are not backed by any links y'all have posted. Its just that cannabis growers for some reason think it is a whole different process but plants are plants. I do not see any other reason for deformities, maybe if you posted a link for me I could understand what you are talking about. I searched on google, and all I found were stressors and mutations causing deformities. Yes there are MANY ways to induce mutation I am talking about the reason for deformities.

Of course you will see mutation in over 40 clone generations, and yes mothers are probably better for this reason. These genetic drift mutations usually occur on one branch as well, and is probably quite noticeable. So if you clone the mutated branch, yes the clone will be mutated.

I am not trying to stir shit up, and I am not posting links because I have learned this shit in classes. Granted I haven't taken a high level genetics course yet, I could never possibly know everything there is to know about mutations.

jewgrow said:

It is hard to debate all of your references, but your arguments are not backed by any links y'all have posted. Its just that cannabis growers for some reason think it is a whole different process but plants are plants. I do not see any other reason for deformities, maybe if you posted a link for me I could understand what you are talking about. I searched on google, and all I found were stressors and mutations causing deformities. Yes there are MANY ways to induce mutation I am talking about the reason for deformities.

Of course you will see mutation in over 40 clone generations, and yes mothers are probably better for this reason. These genetic drift mutations usually occur on one branch as well, and is probably quite noticeable. So if you clone the mutated branch, yes the clone will be mutated.

I am not trying to stir shit up, and I am not posting links because I have learned this shit in classes. Granted I haven't taken a high level genetics course yet, I could never possibly know everything there is to know about mutations.

Click to expand...

So if you read my original post it was about a clone mother that had come off of a 10 year old mother blueberry that had taken on a deformity over time with the gardener having to reclone this plant 10-12 times over the years (plant stress and such.) This more or less proves genetic drift is possible as the plant didn't originally have a deformity, and only showed up about the 6th time he cloned her. I got this cutting from a family friend and I the guy has nothing to lose from lying to a fellow farmer. The mutation per branch is also not valid as some of the branches come up without the deformity, however when I clone the 'normal' part of the plant, it reverts back to the deformity on some of the leaves.

I only put that post up to show the difference between deformities and mutations, I have no idea why you would jump on it. Your obviously a young college kid with a chip on his shoulder about "shit you learned in clasees" Now I don't have a degree, but I do run an organic nursery and my whole family is full of botanists (paleo-botanists actually, but who cares about the semantics.) I grew up on a small organic farm, and I've probably been cloning plants since before you were born and have more real-life experience with plants then most of the people here. (not that I have more experience with cannabis, just plants in general) It is with that I can say quite honestly that the insanely inbred genetics you get in strains today do not have that much in common with, lets say, a corn strain bred for disease and drought resistance. Marijuana as a whole has been bred to the limits of what the breeders want out of the plant. This makes things like GENETIC DRIFT, mutations, and deformities much more prevalent in cannabis, I'm rather done making my point. Thanks for your input.

jewgrow said:

It is hard to debate all of your references, but your arguments are not backed by any links y'all have posted. Its just that cannabis growers for some reason think it is a whole different process but plants are plants. I do not see any other reason for deformities, maybe if you posted a link for me I could understand what you are talking about. I searched on google, and all I found were stressors and mutations causing deformities. Yes there are MANY ways to induce mutation I am talking about the reason for deformities.

Of course you will see mutation in over 40 clone generations, and yes mothers are probably better for this reason. These genetic drift mutations usually occur on one branch as well, and is probably quite noticeable. So if you clone the mutated branch, yes the clone will be mutated.

I am not trying to stir shit up, and I am not posting links because I have learned this shit in classes. Granted I haven't taken a high level genetics course yet, I could never possibly know everything there is to know about mutations.

Click to expand...

First you said there would be no connection to plants being more potent and it being sterile and how easy it is to clone. And I did post a link that "backed up" my argument.
Man, I've never taken classes on genetics, but even I know that disease is one more cause of deformities? I could post a link for that to back up my argument if you want.

I had a talk today with a friend who seemed disappointed when admitting to me that they "only" experience a 60-80% success rate overall when cloning. Now this guy is relatively inexperienced but clearly highly influenced by a site like this one where many growers (like me) claim to consistently achieve nearly 100%

What I pointed out to him that never gets publicly said is that I always pull twice as many clones as I need from around twice as many strains (3-4 times the clones I need to fill a table) every time regardless. The reason being that I have literally nurtured stubborn clones for 3-4 weeks before they finally took root properly (and I am neither going to fail or hold up a crop rotation over suborn clones).

People who claim to root everything, every time in 7-10 days are either full of crap or just never encountered a stubborn strain. The real skill you get from experience is learning how to keep them alive as long as it takes to succeed. I am still personally working on ways to speed things up a bit with some of the more stubborn cuttings. Playing with hormones/nutrients at different concentrations applied as a foliage spray.

I work with Barneys Farm Sweet Tooth, Purple Kush and Grape Krush. When I take cuttings I'm not at 100% success rate maybe more towards 85%. Most of the 15% being grape krush cuttings as it can be a pain to clone, but no matter what I'm taking cuttings of I'm sure to take a few more than I need because from time to time a couple of the other two won't root either.

Guile said:

I had a talk today with a friend who seemed disappointed when admitting to me that they only experience a 60-80% success rate overall when cloning. Now this guy is relatively inexperienced but clearly highly influenced by a site like this one where many growers (like me) claim to consistently achieve nearly 100%

What I pointed out to him that never gets publicly said is that I always pull twice as many clones as I need from around twice as many strains (3-4 times the clones I need to fill a table) every time regardless. The reason being that I have literally nurtured stubborn clones for 3-4 weeks before they finally took root properly (and I am neither going to fail or hold up a crop rotation over suborn clones).

People who claim to root everything, every time in 7-10 days are either full of crap or just never encountered a stubborn strain. The real skill you get from experience is learning how to keep them alive as long as it takes to succeed. I am still personaly working on ways to speed things up a bit with some of the more stubborn cuttings. Playing with hormones/nutrients at different concentrations applied as a foliage spray.

Click to expand...

I've always found it odd that everybody on these forums has 100% success rate with clones and everybody claims they get 1 GPW. You can look at a lot of these peoples rooms/plants and when you see it, things just don't add up. I have close to 20 harvests under my belt and still haven't hit 1 GPW once. And that could be due to the strains I grow, but I just don't believe it most of the time. I just don't see a strain making up for all these mistakes I see in the pictures enough to outdo decent yielding strains under closer to optimal conditions. Don't get me wrong, my conditions are not optimal. But I see some gheeeeettttttttttoooooooo shit going on on these sites man.