COB Manufacturers other than CREE or BRIDGELUX

qwerkus said:

Not so sure about this one. I have two lamps hanging next to each other, one cxb3070 and one clu048-1818, both 5000k, both 50W. On my cheap luxmeter, the citizen is around 3% brighter, and 4°C cooler. Since I'm running everything all passive, the latter makes quite a difference. Not bad for a chip I got for free (sample)...

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Yeah I was just eyeballing around 50W on the datasheets at 50C. Measurements certainly trump that, so that's great to hear. I start my build today, but will be running one 1818 at 700ma per sq ft, so about 37W each.

JorgeGonzales said:

Yeah I was just eyeballing around 50W on the datasheets at 50C. Measurements certainly trump that, so that's great to hear. I start my build today, but will be running one 1818 at 700ma per sq ft, so about 37W each.

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Do you have any idea what the efficiency is at 37W? I am intrigued by the 1818 and 1812's. I am thinking about a similar build.

JorgeGonzales said:

@Chirulazo

Check out the CLU048-1212C4 at 1.4A as well. It outperforms a Vero 29 at all currents, and costs $12.50. 8000 lumens, and around 160lm/W.

I went with CLU048-1818 for my build, running soft. Although the cool thing about the 1818 and above is that if you run hard they outperform the Crees, starting at about 75W, and even at 100W they are above 150lm/W. But Cree is still king of the low current builds.

And the CLU058, forget about it, super good at high currents.

No reason to buy a Vero except availability at this point. That will likely change next generation, but Citizen's are really good, and all these companies running CXBs hard might want to look at efficiency numbers for the Citizens. If I was selling a light it'd be $25 CLU048s chugging along hot.

There is a good spreadsheet at http://ce.citizen.co.jp/lighting_led/dl_data/sim/CITILED_ver5_Selection_Tool_WEB.xlsx which is where I got these numbers, at Tj=50 to compare with Supra's spreadsheets.

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Where are you finding those for 12.50?

Organic Miner said:

Do you have any idea what the efficiency is at 37W? I am intrigued by the 1818 and 1812's. I am thinking about a similar build.

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Well, no. I actually have no idea, but alesh gives these numbers earlier in the thread:

alesh said:

LER for these 70CRI versions is higher, about 353 lm/W for 3000/70CRI. I'd expect 4000K/70CRI to be around 355lm/W.
3000K/80CRI - 330lm/W
2700K/80CRI - 326lm/W

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This was for the CLU056, last generation, but gives us a ballpark. A 3000k 80 CRI CLU048-1818 makes 164lm/w at 34.9W (700ma) at 50C, so using alesh's numbers puts us right at 50% efficiency.

Looks like the 3000k 80 1212 is about 47.5% efficient at 1050ma/37W, handily beating a Vero 29 at half the price if you can get em.

Thats my story, and I'm sticking to it.

kmog33 said:

Where are you finding those for 12.50?

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CDI or tme.eu.

Edited to ask, does this mean you've come around to believing they are more efficient than the Vero 29s?

I'm seeing $25.....?
https://www.cdiweb.com/ProductDetail/CLU0481818C450AL7K3--citizen/585051/

https://led.cdiweb.com/ProductDetail/CLU0481818C430AL7K3-Citizen-Electronics-Co-Ltd/590992/

Airwalker16 said:

I'm seeing $25.....?
https://www.cdiweb.com/ProductDetail/CLU0481818C450AL7K3--citizen/585051/

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He was asking about the CLU048-1212C4. Smaller array, less efficient, but at half the price.

JorgeGonzales said:

Yeah I was just eyeballing around 50W on the datasheets at 50C. Measurements certainly trump that, so that's great to hear. I start my build today, but will be running one 1818 at 700ma per sq ft, so about 37W each.

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Never managed to stay at 50°C. 56°C is my best, @21°C ambient temperature. But than again, it's all passive. Usually, my lamps start at 52-54°C in the morning, and reach 58°C before shutdown, 12 hours later.

The 1212 is another story: less powerful, but also cooler: this one stays @50°C. Had one here, enjoyed the cool light, but saw how the plants were creeping towards its neighboring 1818, so I ended up replacing it. Stil the best bang for the buck, if you ask me. If you have a professionnal license, official regional distributors can go as low as 10-11$/pc, especially with gen4 models now that gen5 is out.

@qwerkus I just chose 50C because that's what Supra normalized all his spreadsheets to. Are you running at 50W? How are you measuring temps?

I think Citizen recommends soldering or epoxying a thermocouple to the anode pad, which would be the case temp, .17C/W less than the junction. But that sounds like a real pain.

JorgeGonzales said:

CDI or tme.eu.

Edited to ask, does this mean you've come around to believing they are more efficient than the Vero 29s?

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The 1212s do not seem to be more efficient than the v22s even. Much less the vero 29s. Test current 1050ma 4000-6000 lumen output at test max it looks like. The v22s test at 1400ma and I think are 6000-8000 max lumen output. And $15. The 1818s look like the ones you're talking about, but cost $25 so no savings.

kmog33 said:

The 1212s do not seem to be more efficient than the v22s even. Much less the vero 29s. Test current 1050ma 4000-6000 lumen output at test max it looks like. The v22s test at 1400ma and I think are 6000-8000 max lumen output. And $15. The 1818s look like the ones you're talking about, but cost $25 so no savings.

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OK, so I'm not seeing what you are seeing. I did a search for "citizen led design spreadsheet", then looked at their spreadsheet. Then I looked at the V22 data. From what I see the 1212s put the spank on the V22s handily...lm/watt wise. So let me know what you think of that spreadsheet...I might be missing something.

I'll be more specific. The 3000K, 80cri at 1050ma, Tj 25C (because that is what the V22 data shows for lm/w reading). So I'm showing 159 lm/w for the 48-1212 and 138 lm/w for the V22.

BuddyColas said:

OK, so I'm not seeing what you are seeing. I did a search for "citizen led design spreadsheet", then looked at their spreadsheet. Then I looked at the V22 data. From what I see the 1212s put the spank on the V22s handily...lm/watt wise. So let me know what you think of that spreadsheet...I might be missing something.

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How do you figure? seems like they lose just about everywhere by 10-30 lpw at the clu48 1212 test current.

kmog33 said:

How do you figure?

seems like they lose just about everywhere by 10-30 lpw at the clu48 1212 test current.

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OK, I see what you are looking at. The spreadsheet shows the performance of the latest version of the Citizen. And is the data you are showing for the Citizen a cri of 90?

And I'm not pissing in your Cheerios...just asking a question.

kmog33 said:

The 1212s do not seem to be more efficient than the v22s even. Much less the vero 29s. Test current 1050ma 4000-6000 lumen output at test max it looks like. The v22s test at 1400ma and I think are 6000-8000 max lumen output. And $15. The 1818s look like the ones you're talking about, but cost $25 so no savings.

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Damn, I thought you had figured it out. I'll seriously try to explain, because it's a good concept to grasp when looking at cobs. This shit is tricky.

Efficiency, as quoted by manufacturers, is expressed in lumens per watt, right? What's a watt? It's a measure of power, how the electric company bills you, and is calculated by multiplying current by volts.

Watts = current times volts.

So power is what interests us. Watts. Let's look at Vero 29 numbers:



And let's choose the 1050ma column. You'll see in the "Typical Watts" column we have 38.2W. That is 1.05A x 36.4V, which is 38.2W. And at 38.2W we make 5985 lumens, or 157 lumens per watt. This is all at 25C.

Now the CLU048-1818 is 35.7V at 1050ma and 25C, just trust me on this I'm looking at their spreadsheet right now. So we multiply 1.05 by 35.7 and get 37.5W, right? A little less power usage than the Vero 29, but here's the kicker. It makes 6133 lumens, and if you divide lumens by watts you get 164 lumens per watt! Or 7 more lumens per watt than the Vero 29.

More lumens, less power, although I could match watts in the spreadsheet, you get the idea.

The 1818 is trickier because it's 52V, so at 700ma it uses about the same watts as the Vero and 1212. And it makes 172lm/w at 700ma, so even better.

I really hope this helps. And since I just edited twice to correct mistyped numbers, I hope there aren't any more typos.

JorgeGonzales said:

Damn, I thought you had figured it out. I'll seriously try to explain, because it's a good concept to grasp when looking at cobs. This shit is tricky.

Efficiency, as quoted by manufacturers, is expressed in lumens per watt, right? What's a watt? It's a measure of power, how the electric company bills you, and is calculated by multiplying current by volts.

Watts = current times volts.

So power is what interests us. Watts. Let's look at Vero 29 numbers:

View attachment 3668055

And let's choose the 1050ma column. You'll see in the "Typical Watts" column we have 38.2W. That is 1.05A x 36.4V, which is 38.2W. And at 38.2W we make 5985 lumens, or 157 lumens per watt. This is all at 25C.

Now the CLU048-1818 is 35.7V at 1050ma and 25C, just trust me on this I'm looking at their spreadsheet right now. So we multiply 1.05 by 35.7 and get 37.5W, right? A little less power usage than the Vero 29, but here's the kicker. It makes 6133 lumens, and if you divide lumens by watts you get 164 more lumens per watt! Or 7 more lumens per watt than the Vero 29.

More lumens, less power.

The 1818 is trickier because it's 52V, so at 700ma it uses about the same watts as the Vero and 1212. And it makes 172lm/w at 700ma, so even better.

I really hope this helps.

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Thanks. So please do the same for the 48-1212 and get a fresh set of eyes on it and let me know what you come up with.

@BuddyColas he is comparing 90 CRI to 80 CRI V22. Thats not very fair.

Do what for the 1212?

You are the hero in all this, I missed the 1212 completely and built with 1818s. Still, they are more efficient, and have a lower thermal resistance because they are larger, so run a few degrees cooler. And kick the snot out of Veros, and at my currents keep pace with a CXB3070 for a few dollars less.

Just trying to live with having spent $100 to save 16 watts.

JorgeGonzales said:

@BuddyColas he is comparing 90 CRI to 80 CRI V22. Thats not very fair.

Do what for the 1212?

You are the hero in all this, I missed the 1212 completely and built with 1818s. Still, they are more efficient, and have a lower thermal resistance because they are larger, so run a few degrees cooler. And kick the snot out of Veros, and at my currents keep pace with a CXB3070 for a few dollars less.

Just trying to live with having spent $100 to save 16 watts.

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No worries. You have already compared the 1212s with the 1818s. Just didn't see the comparison Kmog was seeing. I do miss things. So from my view, dollar/PAR watt Citizen is right up there. Nichia is very good and comparable also, but they will only sell in sheets of 42...a bit more than I need!

BTW, I would have never looked at Citizen or that spreadsheet without your post. Thanks.

BuddyColas said:

No worries. You have already compared the 1212s with the 1818s. Just didn't see the comparison Kmog was seeing. I do miss things. So from my view, dollar/PAR watt Citizen is right up there. Nichia is very good and comparable also, but they will only sell in sheets of 42...a bit more than I need!

BTW, I would have never looked at Citizen or that spreadsheet without your post. Thanks.

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I'm not sure anything can really compete with the $12.50 1212 as far as par watts, the 1818 has more competition, especially from the CXB3070, and presumably the next generation Veros which will probably be neck and neck.

Which Nichias are worth looking at?

And now back to actually building these mofos.

JorgeGonzales said:

I'm not sure anything can really compete with the $12.50 1212 as far as par watts, the 1818 has more competition, especially from the CXB3070, and presumably the next generation Veros which will probably be neck and neck.

Which Nichias are worth looking at?

And now back to actually building these mofos.

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http://www.nichia.co.jp/en/product/led_product_data.html?type='NFDLJ130B-V1'
http://www.nichia.co.jp/en/product/led_product_data.html?type='NFCLJ108B-V1'

Check out these two. Give them a fresh set of eyes. If I bought 42 of them, they would be $5.40 and $7.10 each respectively...plus shipping. Now that is some PAR watts at a bargain! And with very respectable efficiency.

*That quote subject to change without notice of course.

Egads this hurts my head, but yeah I get 155lm/w Citizen 1212 vs 148lm/w for Nichia at the 6700 lumens typical for the first cob, and 165 vs 155 lm/w for the second comparison, again to Citizen.

The Nichia rankings point out now silly this is though. When you do min vs max you get a range of like 140 to 180lm/w, And you could do the same by looking at the minimum instead of typical for Citizen's data.

So yeah, those are respectable numbers and great prices in bulk, although I suspect all of these cobs are much cheaper by the crate.

I wish more companies had datasheets like Bridgelux. I love the multiple typical currents.