controlling EBB and gro ph and ppm swings

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nocturnalreef

Member
is there anyone that can tell me how i might be able to controll the ph of my water a bit better? i have 25 gallons in the resivoir and my ph is jumping from 5.8 to 7.0 over about 20hrs. is that a normal swing for that large of a water base?
also since that is happening my solution is nutrient rich, so i have to add a large amount of ph-, which i am afraid is making my solution really bad because of the excesssive amount that has to be added... i had to add 50-60 ml today to get it to drop to a safe rage.
i am out right now but i have all the ppms and ph levels from the nights before and what additions had to be made

Off the top of my head the ppms were 1210 ph 7.0
after my top off i was at 1200 ppm 7.0 then i added the mass of ph- to get to 6.0ph... however later this evening the ppms jumped to 1375. can anyone fill me in on whats going on?

the chemicals i am using are bio line from general hydro and their ph- solution. the water is RO//DI the exact temps on water i am un sure of but the room temps are 82-80
 
speedyseedz

speedyseedz

Well-Known Member
nocturnalreef said:
is there anyone that can tell me how i might be able to controll the ph of my water a bit better? i have 25 gallons in the resivoir and my ph is jumping from 5.8 to 7.0 over about 20hrs. is that a normal swing for that large of a water base?
also since that is happening my solution is nutrient rich, so i have to add a large amount of ph-, which i am afraid is making my solution really bad because of the excesssive amount that has to be added... i had to add 50-60 ml today to get it to drop to a safe rage.
i am out right now but i have all the ppms and ph levels from the nights before and what additions had to be made

Off the top of my head the ppms were 1210 ph 7.0
after my top off i was at 1200 ppm 7.0 then i added the mass of ph- to get to 6.0ph... however later this evening the ppms jumped to 1375. can anyone fill me in on whats going on?

the chemicals i am using are bio line from general hydro and their ph- solution. the water is RO//DI the exact temps on water i am un sure of but the room temps are 82-80
Click to expand...

Ok nutrients and ph 101

If your using ebb and flow so chances are your using a rockwool cube.

Now if you get yourself a bucket of water and test the ph straight away, it will be whatever say ph7 and when you add nutrients the ph level alters, because of the compounds in the nutrients.

So you make your res up and have it at ph 5.8 and the ppms are right you feed through the system and completely soak the cube, now next day when you come to feed it, that plant has drank some water and eaten some nutrients, but it probably hasn't done so equally, so when you feed through the cube next time you add whatever is left in the cube to the tank, so the balance you created is now altered.

If you wanna keep it balanced you gotta get the amount of nutrients you are adding closer to the plants requirements for the stage they are at, so they drink water fairly equally to the amount of nutes they consume, now this isn't an easy task by any means, but the closer you get to it, the more stable your ph will come.
 
N

nocturnalreef

Member
so whats the easiest way to figure out the consumption of chemicals the plants are usng? currently the are in veg stage but small plants 5th leafe set 3" or so.. as for the rock wool, i have the plants in the smallest rockwool cube there is, the buckets themselves are filled with hydroton pellets.

so is adding that much PH - doing damage to the grow? i feel like the solution becomes acidic more than it should.
is a jump of 1.0 pts to 1.3pts in ph a normal swing or should it be less?

So until i find out the consumption rate of my plants can th eph be corrected that much in one day? with that much PH- daily?
 
speedyseedz

speedyseedz

Well-Known Member
nocturnalreef said:
so whats the easiest way to figure out the consumption of chemicals the plants are usng? currently the are in veg stage but small plants 5th leafe set 3" or so.. as for the rock wool, i have the plants in the smallest rockwool cube there is, the buckets themselves are filled with hydroton pellets.

so is adding that much PH - doing damage to the grow? i feel like the solution becomes acidic more than it should.
is a jump of 1.0 pts to 1.3pts in ph a normal swing or should it be less?

So until i find out the consumption rate of my plants can th eph be corrected that much in one day? with that much PH- daily?
Click to expand...
check the run off, if you put in 1200 ppms, and the run off is 1400 ppms, then there are still nutrients in the medium, if you put in 1200 and the run off is 1200 or lower
well i'm sure you know
 
N

nocturnalreef

Member
okay well i keep daily records of everything so let me use yesterday for example and today
Yesterday
PM 1280
Ph 5.8

Today
PPM 1300
PH 7.0

Difference
PPm 20
PH 1.2!

Now in that case i should have added nutrients to re-balance right?

cause i did that with my top off and it still took 50ML of PH down just to get it to drop to where it is.

thanks for the help, i have always added top offs and stuff but i don't understand the large jump with the limited amount of time and not a large difference in ppms, if i'm not mistaken.

speedyseedz said:
check the run off, if you put in 1200 ppms, and the run off is 1400 ppms, then there are still nutrients in the medium, if you put in 1200 and the run off is 1200 or lower
well i'm sure you know
Click to expand...
 
N

nocturnalreef

Member
i didn't add a large amount of nutrients to my top off today because i wasn't sure of the amount of chemicals to be added as to the ppm change/difference.

nocturnalreef said:
okay well i keep daily records of everything so let me use yesterday for example and today
Yesterday
PM 1280
Ph 5.8

Today
PPM 1300
PH 7.0

Difference
PPm 20
PH 1.2!

Now in that case i should have added nutrients to re-balance right?

cause i did that with my top off and it still took 50ML of PH down just to get it to drop to where it is.

thanks for the help, i have always added top offs and stuff but i don't understand the large jump with the limited amount of time and not a large difference in ppms, if i'm not mistaken.
Click to expand...
 
speedyseedz

speedyseedz

Well-Known Member
nocturnalreef said:
okay well i keep daily records of everything so let me use yesterday for example and today
Yesterday
PM 1280
Ph 5.8

Today
PPM 1300
PH 7.0

Difference
PPm 20
PH 1.2!

Now in that case i should have added nutrients to re-balance right?

cause i did that with my top off and it still took 50ML of PH down just to get it to drop to where it is.

thanks for the help, i have always added top offs and stuff but i don't understand the large jump with the limited amount of time and not a large difference in ppms, if i'm not mistaken.
Click to expand...
did you ph your rockwool before you used it?

basically if you water is a set figure say 1200 ppm and 6 ph

and you rinse that water through the cube and it comes back out again, the ph is increasing, so something must be happening inside the cube, so either there are nutrients in there which are effecting the ph balance or the ph of the cube is out so when water flows through it the ph raises.

if you could some how collect some water that came frmo the cube directly after it was watered and it returned to the res and then check the ph and ppms of that, i think you would get a clear picture.

If thats not the cause then your meter is buggered
 
N

nocturnalreef

Member
I will get that from the rockwool and check.... but the rock wool cubes are the 2.5"x2.5" so it's not a large cube that would retain a massive amount. they are in 2.5 gallon pots full of hydroton. the meter is new, and i am running a bubbleponics and areo setup that isn't having these issues. they are jumping a small amount and taking very little to correct.
However their nutrients aren't full strength yet either... anyway i will squeeze a cube from a small plant that hasn't stretched much if any out of the cubes to get the water and see where it's at.

speedyseedz said:
did you ph your rockwool before you used it?

basically if you water is a set figure say 1200 ppm and 6 ph

and you rinse that water through the cube and it comes back out again, the ph is increasing, so something must be happening inside the cube, so either there are nutrients in there which are effecting the ph balance or the ph of the cube is out so when water flows through it the ph raises.

if you could some how collect some water that came frmo the cube directly after it was watered and it returned to the res and then check the ph and ppms of that, i think you would get a clear picture.

If thats not the cause then your meter is buggered
Click to expand...
 
P

petrol420

Member
nocturnalreef said:
I will get that from the rockwool and check.... but the rock wool cubes are the 2.5"x2.5" so it's not a large cube that would retain a massive amount. they are in 2.5 gallon pots full of hydroton. the meter is new, and i am running a bubbleponics and areo setup that isn't having these issues. they are jumping a small amount and taking very little to correct.
However their nutrients aren't full strength yet either... anyway i will squeeze a cube from a small plant that hasn't stretched much if any out of the cubes to get the water and see where it's at.
Click to expand...
Are your plants showing signs of suffering because of your PH fluctuation? If not, I'd say don't worry about it.

I got blasted for saying this before but just set your reservoir PH initially and leave it alone unless you start seeing problems. Also, if your plants are growing great, remember the formula you used and mix your nutes and PH to the same consistency.

I'm an absolute noob to hydro but I'd say my plants are growing great and I usually never check my PH.
 

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speedyseedz

speedyseedz

Well-Known Member
petrol420 said:
Are your plants showing signs of suffering because of your PH fluctuation? If not, I'd say don't worry about it.

I got blasted for saying this before but just set your reservoir PH initially and leave it alone unless you start seeing problems. Also, if your plants are growing great, remember the formula you used and mix your nutes and PH to the same consistency.

I'm an absolute noob to hydro but I'd say my plants are growing great and I usually never check my PH.
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I don't recirculate my nutes, and i always give ph adjusted and correct ppm nute solution.
 
P

petrol420

Member
speedyseedz said:
I don't recirculate my nutes, and i always give ph adjusted and correct ppm nute solution.
Click to expand...

Then you either hand water it or use a drip emitter. And since the nutes never circulate, you wouldn't be the type of grower that would have a PH problem.

Nocturnalreef on the other hand is using a flood and drain system. And no offense speedyseedz but you really can't be much help to this guy unless you use flood and drain yourself. All you could offer are suggestions but not expertise.

You do have a nice bushy plant though and it looks like it'll yield a nice head stash.
 
GreenThumbSucker

GreenThumbSucker

Well-Known Member
Are you calibrating your PH meter at least once a week? A 2 1/2 inch rockwool cube wont affect 25 gallons of water that radically.

I had a similar problem on my first grow and it was because I went three weeks without calibrating my PH meter.
 
speedyseedz

speedyseedz

Well-Known Member
petrol420 said:
Then you either hand water it or use a drip emitter. And since the nutes never circulate, you wouldn't be the type of grower that would have a PH problem.

Nocturnalreef on the other hand is using a flood and drain system. And no offense speedyseedz but you really can't be much help to this guy unless you use flood and drain yourself. All you could offer are suggestions but not expertise.

You do have a nice bushy plant though and it looks like it'll yield a nice head stash.
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Just because i'm not using a system now, doesn't mean I haven't ever used it.

I've had my journey of different grow methods, i've done aero, dwc, drip, eff n flow, nft, coco and soil.

That was a picture of just one plant.

You admitted yourself that you are a hydro noob so how do you propose to offer expertise?

Your telling him that ph is no bother but you have no real idea of how ph effects the plant, how it locks certain nutrient types out, how it affects the taste.

If the solution is perfect and exactly what the plant is looking for it will drink it so quickly, if it is not, and the ph is out or the ppms are out then it takes far longer to drink the fluid, you won't be aware of the results as you won't have a plant that is getting optimum right next to it to show you the differences.

Good luck with your cfl grow though petrol, I bare no malice towards you.
 
speedyseedz

speedyseedz

Well-Known Member
GreenThumbSucker said:
Are you calibrating your PH meter at least once a week? A 2 1/2 inch rockwool cube wont affect 25 gallons of water that radically.

I had a similar problem on my first grow and it was because I went three weeks without calibrating my PH meter.
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If your ph meter sways that much in that short of a time frame, don't you think you need a more reliable meter.
 
P

petrol420

Member
speedyseedz said:
Just because i'm not using a system now, doesn't mean I haven't ever used it.

I've had my journey of different grow methods, i've done aero, dwc, drip, eff n flow, nft, coco and soil.

That was a picture of just one plant.

You admitted yourself that you are a hydro noob so how do you propose to offer expertise?

Your telling him that ph is no bother but you have no real idea of how ph effects the plant, how it locks certain nutrient types out, how it affects the taste.

If the solution is perfect and exactly what the plant is looking for it will drink it so quickly, if it is not, and the ph is out or the ppms are out then it takes far longer to drink the fluid, you won't be aware of the results as you won't have a plant that is getting optimum right next to it to show you the differences.

Good luck with your cfl grow though petrol, I bare no malice towards you.
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Hey, I did admit I am a noob but I did provide pics to back up my claim that you don't need to worry too much about PH.

No matter how much proof I give, I always get blasted by someone about how wrong I am. How much proof do I need to give? I could see if everyone thought I was blowing smoke out of my ass if I didn't have anything to back up my claims but I always provide the proof.

speedyseedz: Answer me this. What do YOU want me to do to provide more proof as to not worrying about PH too much? Just ask and if its reasonable, I'll do it. I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is.

Worrying about PH is analogous to an Oil Pressure Gauge in a car. Most cars don't have one anymore because the manufacturers were tired of people complaining about how much their oil pressure fluctuates and the customers always were afraid somethings gonna go wrong with their car. The manufacturers just ended up taking the damn gauges out because people were too stupid to realize that, yeah the damn oil pressure is always going to fluctuate extremely but your car is ok. If you have an oil pressure gauge in your car and you use conventional oil, try putting some synthetic in there and watch how much that pressure drops. Its pretty alarming at first but there is absolutely nothing to worry about.

PH is just like the oil pressure gauge.

Also, I have scanned these forums pretty extensively and I have yet to see a post where somebody said they had their PH all wrong and their whole crop was ruined. All the posts I see about PH problems are just fluctuation problems.

I feel if you change out your solution once every two weeks, you're not going to have a PH problem. And again, I am ready to back up any claim I made.
 
Jack*Herrer420

Jack*Herrer420

Well-Known Member
With the ebb and gro system, sometimes nutes and whatnot get stuck in the buckets and don't get recirculated with the rest of the system, causing ph and ppm swings. If you can, I would put my drain tube on the bottom of my bucket, and raise the buckets a couple inches to ensure it gets completely drained. I haven't really had that problem with my system, but I have read some threads where people did, and their solution was to do as I just mentioned. Hope that helps, I think they thought you were talking about a flood and drain table.
 
ShoAL paTroL

ShoAL paTroL

Well-Known Member
how warm is the water in the rez?u said ur room was in the 80's.small rezs will warm up real fast in a room that hot.it shouldnt be any higher then 78.i didnt catch the kind of nutes u use.some nutes dont have alot of buffers in them and have to be adjusted alot.ph spikes up can/could be caused by bad things growing in your rez because the water is hot.ur ppm isnt dropping cause ur plants have all the nutes they need for the time being


we run 2 100gal rez's.we check the ph once when its fresh and thats it.we like our ph to move from 5.9 to 6.5 threw out the week.we dont want the ph to stay the same everyday.we like the growth rate at this ph range
 
Jack*Herrer420

Jack*Herrer420

Well-Known Member
With ph, I always set mine at about 5.5-5.8, and it will naturally fluctuate. As long as you stay within the 5.5-6.0 range, your good.:bigjoint:
 
speedyseedz

speedyseedz

Well-Known Member
petrol420 said:
Hey, I did admit I am a noob but I did provide pics to back up my claim that you don't need to worry too much about PH.

No matter how much proof I give, I always get blasted by someone about how wrong I am. How much proof do I need to give? I could see if everyone thought I was blowing smoke out of my ass if I didn't have anything to back up my claims but I always provide the proof.

speedyseedz: Answer me this. What do YOU want me to do to provide more proof as to not worrying about PH too much? Just ask and if its reasonable, I'll do it. I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is.

Worrying about PH is analogous to an Oil Pressure Gauge in a car. Most cars don't have one anymore because the manufacturers were tired of people complaining about how much their oil pressure fluctuates and the customers always were afraid somethings gonna go wrong with their car. The manufacturers just ended up taking the damn gauges out because people were too stupid to realize that, yeah the damn oil pressure is always going to fluctuate extremely but your car is ok. If you have an oil pressure gauge in your car and you use conventional oil, try putting some synthetic in there and watch how much that pressure drops. Its pretty alarming at first but there is absolutely nothing to worry about.

PH is just like the oil pressure gauge.

Also, I have scanned these forums pretty extensively and I have yet to see a post where somebody said they had their PH all wrong and their whole crop was ruined. All the posts I see about PH problems are just fluctuation problems.

I feel if you change out your solution once every two weeks, you're not going to have a PH problem. And again, I am ready to back up any claim I made.
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How does your pic show that?

I can see problems in the leaves, yellow tips, curling leaves and all sorts, your plants have like a foot between nodes, and you expect me to take that photo as proof that ph doesn't matter.

OK dude:wall::wall::wall:
 
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