Cutting fan leaves

I'm not a big fan of cutting into the plant at all, but there have been times where removing some of the leaves becomes necessary to keep the plant from being too shaded. One thing I've tried is clipping the tips of the bigger fan leaves to allow more light but still have the ability to absorb light....I have NO IDEA if this is a good thing to do or not, all I know is my plants are budding like crazy and the top colas are nice and healthy....am I hurting my ladies by doing this? Any thoughts?

Personally i wouldnt even be doing that, imo. I tend to just tie leaves down, or to the side or wherever, tucking them under other leaves and what not. Even if theres more shade than you would like, keep in mind a large % of light actually moves straight through the leaves, so shade doesnt necessarily mean its getting zero light.

Thanks KlosetKing that is a very good point.I will try tying the leaves down or or simply let them grow unruley.

anytime. and bear in mind iam not saying that unruly is good either, so i wish you well with the LST (tying down). the real goal is to get optimal light penetration to lower branches and leaves while still leaving the top fan leaves in direct light. The ease of this will vary depending on how early you start your lst, there are several guides around that have very easy to read explanations on LST and topping methods, both of which i would highly recommend looking into =D they are very easy and can improve yeilds dramatically. I didnt top my first grow, but after doing it my second time in, i highly regret putting it off, it was REALLY easy and i had great results. on a side note, there ARE times to remove leaves, but you can tell by looking at the leaf itself. its not uncommon for yellowing/browning and dying off of leaves later in flower. the way i judge it is if it comes of with a very gentle tug, it was ready. if it resists at all, it stays.

best of luck with your grow =D

I've snipped fan leaves to make them smaller to let in more light- same thing as doing it when you're cloning, no harm.. I also remove discolored or otherwise unhealthy looking leaves. I don't mind taking off leaves to make more light, but I don't take them unless they've lost a little color so they don't seem as beneficial. I kind of feel bad about taking healthy green leaves because they seem to be working hard and contributing to the growth.

Animily said:

This morning I woke up and went to my garden and stripped all of the fan leaves off of 5 of my plants...

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HAHHAHAAA...Oh my god...just wow...that's hilarious

Animily said:

My theory is this...

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Your theory? Why don't you do some research outside internet forums...maybe take a look at just ONE of the MANY books/articles on botany that have already proven your "theory" to be totally bunk and waaaaaay counter-productive. I just don't understand why people want this to work so badly when it just DOESN'T...Find out the facts! Stop being lazy and do some research! Learn the real way to increase yields by studying your craft and listening to folks like Uncle Ben who have actually applied his research to real-life growing. Here's some good info:


Botany 101
Plants need energy to grow, to replace worn out cells, to get rid of waste, and to reproduce. All organisms get energy from food. Photosynthesis is the process by which plants make food. Only plants can make food.

In this process carbon dioxide and water combine in the presence of light to form sugar, a food. Stomates are found in layers of protective cells on the surface of the leaves. Gases move in and out of the stomates. These openings connect to large air spaces in the middle layer of the leaf. Carbon dioxide in the middle layer of the leaf is then available to the chloroplasts. Chloroplasts are the food-making cells of the leaf. Xylem in the veins carry water to these food-making cells. The water comes from the roots and the root hairs which are in the ground.

Think of a chloroplast as a food factory. Carbon dioxide and water are the raw materials that go into the factory. Sunlight is the energy that changes the raw materials into the product; food in the form of sugar.

Photosynthesis is a complex process. A series of chemical reactions change the raw materials to the food product. The process can be shown simply by looking at the starting materials and the end products.
Although all cells in the green parts of a plant have chloroplasts,most of the energy is captured in the LEAVES. The cells in the interior tissues of a leaf are called the mesophyll. The mesophyll contain between 450,000 and 800,000 chloroplasts per square millimeter of leaf. The surface of the leaf is uniformly coated with a water-resistant waxy cuticle that protects the leaf from excessive evaporation of water and decreases the absorption of ultraviolet or blue light to reduce heating. The transparent epidermis layer allows light to pass through to the palisade mesophyll cells where most of the photosynthesis takes place.

I REALLY hope this helps...

NovusSpiritus said:

Your theory? Why don't you do some research outside internet forums...

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And specifically, outside cannabis gardening internet forums.

Great post BTW.......

Where are these guys trying to get light to by moving or snipping fan leaves? It is hilarous to think there is more leaf surface at bud sites than a 9" wide fan leaf. It's all about collecting photons. I'm not gonna belabor this, but they need to read about R and FR penetration of light into the canopy, thru leaves.
"They" aint gonna do it though. It's much more comforting to follow "popular" forum paradigms. "Right or wrong" doesn't matter in the world of cannabis gardening...... only fads, trends, and rocket fuels.

You can tell most have never grown an apple, peach, or pecan tree where most of the produce is shaded.

UB

Uncle Ben said:

Great post BTW.......

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Thanks, UB coming from you, that means a lot!

Like I stated in another thread, every time I read "I heard from someone, somewhere..." I cringe, because I know the text following that sentence is probably going to be some ridiculous "if you lick the fan leaves twice a day, the enzymes in your saliva will shock the plant into producing more THC..." bullshit. And it's like, all you want them to do is gain some serious common sense. If only people would just take the time to read legitimate material and research into what they're doing, it'd be soooooo much better. Throwing yourself into something you know nothing or very little about is like trying to watch the third movie in a quadrilogy...you've already missed so much - how do you expect to understand what you're watching with absolutely no background info?

Animily said:

Hey i appreciate the response and the info. I am a newbie to the whole experience and watching theses babies grow is absolutely beautiful. I just wanted to go ahead and try and figure this out in the beginning so that I had some experience in knowing what not to do. I looked up a few webpages but came up with no result. So I figured that if it had to cost me, I'd rather do it with bag seed rather than the OG seeds. Those are expensive and hard to come by. Anyhow, feel free to send me your recipe for success and I will definitely use. Organic or hydroponic.

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As stated above I am new to the whole growing experience and decided that I would like to make my errors sooner than later. On another note, I have several books that I purchased and READ and decided to try my theory out. As it turns out, me cutting those leaves just caused the plant to grow outrageously fast. So like I said before, IF YOU HAVE A PROVEN RECIPE FOR SUCCESS,feel free to send me the recipe. Othewise you can save the wiseguy jokes for somebody else. I would also suggest that you read through the forum before you leave negative feedback because that sh*t is unacceptable. This is a community devoted to serious individuals that is serious about learning about the cultivation of MJ. So Positive feedback is always appreciated.

Uncle Ben said:

And specifically, outside cannabis gardening internet forums.

Great post BTW.......

Where are these guys trying to get light to by moving or snipping fan leaves? It is hilarous to think there is more leaf surface at bud sites than a 9" wide fan leaf. It's all about collecting photons. I'm not gonna belabor this, but they need to read about R and FR penetration of light into the canopy, thru leaves.
"They" aint gonna do it though. It's much more comforting to follow "popular" forum paradigms. "Right or wrong" doesn't matter in the world of cannabis gardening...... only fads, trends, and rocket fuels.

You can tell most have never grown an apple, peach, or pecan tree where most of the produce is shaded.

UB

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You're right, I have only grown one plant and nothing more than that. However, I do not follow trends, paradigms,etc because I am not just going to believe anything that's written without research. That is also the reason why I've left an open invitation to you and any other member that has a proven success formula so that I may research and apply it to my setup but no one has yet to send me that formula for success. I study cultivation from the time I get up until the time I go to bed because I am serious about this. My wife's life depends on me getting this right and I will continue to learn and master the art until her cancer has been cured.

NovusSpiritus said:

Thanks, UB coming from you, that means a lot!

Like I stated in another thread, every time I read "I heard from someone, somewhere..." I cringe, because I know the text following that sentence is probably going to be some ridiculous "if you lick the fan leaves twice a day, the enzymes in your saliva will shock the plant into producing more THC..." bullshit. And it's like, all you want them to do is gain some serious common sense. If only people would just take the time to read legitimate material and research into what they're doing, it'd be soooooo much better. Throwing yourself into something you know nothing or very little about is like trying to watch the third movie in a quadrilogy...you've already missed so much - how do you expect to understand what you're watching with absolutely no background info?

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LOL

Animily said:

You're right, I have only grown one plant and nothing more than that. However, I do not follow trends, paradigms,etc because I am not just going to believe anything that's written without research. That is also the reason why I've left an open invitation to you and any other member that has a proven success formula so that I may research and apply it to my setup but no one has yet to send me that formula for success. I study cultivation from the time I get up until the time I go to bed because I am serious about this. My wife's life depends on me getting this right and I will continue to learn and master the art until her cancer has been cured.

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Success story? Learning what makes a plant tick. Sticking with your progam until you get it right as opposed to jumping from soil, to hydro, to coco, to DWC, jumping lights, using weird photoperiods, rocket fuels..... just because someone has had some success with it and posted photos).

Uncle Ben said:

LOL



Success story? Learning what makes a plant tick. Sticking with your progam until you get it right as opposed to jumping from soil, to hydro, to coco, to DWC, jumping lights, using weird photoperiods, rocket fuels..... just because someone has had some success with it and posted photos).

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I am with UB, if most of the people growing that post all these silly questions, let alone some of the responses would spend an equal amount of time just reading basic biology, maybe take a few notes........oh I forgot, Ganja Joe has 500 posts, lots of little green boxes under their names, he must be right although if you read all their posts they are idiots.
If people would just put an equal amount of energy into real reading, university studies, plant studies from organizations which are dedicated to plant research and the like as they do into reading BS about MJ they would be better served. Just because a study or comparison of this or that with a plant is not about marijuana does not exclude the study. General biology of plants provide untold facts and science which will apply to all plants. It's not rocket science its biology

canefan said:

I am with UB, if most of the people growing that post all these silly questions, let alone some of the responses would spend an equal amount of time just reading basic biology, maybe take a few notes........oh I forgot, Ganja Joe has 500 posts, lots of little green boxes under their names, he must be right although if you read all their posts they are idiots.
If people would just put an equal amount of energy into real reading, university studies, plant studies from organizations which are dedicated to plant research and the like as they do into reading BS about MJ they would be better served. Just because a study or comparison of this or that with a plant is not about marijuana does not exclude the study. General biology of plants provide untold facts and science which will apply to all plants. It's not rocket science its biology

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I started my own program and decided that I would ask questions because the only dumb question is the one you don't ask! All that I am doing is simply checking to make certain. There are basics to everything and you can't just into an advanced method when you don't quite understand all of the basics. Me asking for your recipe for success is simply so that I may have a comparrison. Maybe there is something that you know that I don't and I'm simply referring to the basics. BTW, is there a particular biology book that you recommend I take a look at? Up until now I really haven't cared much for science but if that's something that I need to add to my book collection, hell, I'm all for it!

Please don't take offense I was not pointing you out, sorry. I was just speaking in general terms of the majority of new growers. I also agree that the only dumb question is one not asked, many years ago when I was teaching high school I use to tell my students the exact same quote. Back then the internet was just starting up early 80's so it wasn't as easy to find answers then and research was an artform. Today you have an entire world at your fingertips which has been great for me and my love for reading new things.
I am enclosing a link to the University of Ohio and their biology department. This might be a little advanced but a simple google search of "plant biology" gave me many links from a simple introduction to very advanced. I hope that you find all your answers to your questions and I am also always willing to help people with an interest learn, just PM me and I am happy to help you research your questions. Hell, I always learn something new in the process also which gives me more incentive to do more research.
Happy Growing and keep asking questions and looking for answers. Canefan

http://www.hcs.ohio-state.edu/hcs300/

@ canfan, Thanks bro, I really appreciate you taking the time to to put the info out there. I am definitely about to take a look at this link! Once again, Thanks!

Animily said:

I started my own program and decided that I would ask questions because the only dumb question is the one you don't ask! All that I am doing is simply checking to make certain. There are basics to everything and you can't just into an advanced method when you don't quite understand all of the basics. Me asking for your recipe for success is simply so that I may have a comparrison. Maybe there is something that you know that I don't and I'm simply referring to the basics. BTW, is there a particular biology book that you recommend I take a look at? Up until now I really haven't cared much for science but if that's something that I need to add to my book collection, hell, I'm all for it!

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Mel Franks MJ Insiders Growers Guide.

Thanks for the advice Uncle Ben. Very Much appreciated

canefan said:

Please don't take offense I was not pointing you out, sorry. I was just speaking in general terms of the majority of new growers. I also agree that the only dumb question is one not asked, many years ago when I was teaching high school I use to tell my students the exact same quote. Back then the internet was just starting up early 80's so it wasn't as easy to find answers then and research was an artform. Today you have an entire world at your fingertips which has been great for me and my love for reading new things.
I am enclosing a link to the University of Ohio and their biology department. This might be a little advanced but a simple google search of "plant biology" gave me many links from a simple introduction to very advanced. I hope that you find all your answers to your questions and I am also always willing to help people with an interest learn, just PM me and I am happy to help you research your questions. Hell, I always learn something new in the process also which gives me more incentive to do more research.
Happy Growing and keep asking questions and looking for answers. Canefan

http://www.hcs.ohio-state.edu/hcs300/

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Good stuff! What's really interesting is the fact that most of the noobs have never grown a plant before, no kind of a plant, and that puts them at a huge disadvantage. We all make choices, of which they get caught up in a mesmerizing, confusing plant food, equipment and seed scams from local or internet vendors, buy into the hype stuff like conversion hoods, designer genes/feminized seeds, start with "dro" because it's cool (everyone does it) and then wonder why their plants look like shit after 2 months of failed attempts to get anything going.

And to preach and brag about removing the very unit that produces bud is just hilarious!

UB

Uncle Ben said:

Good stuff! What's really interesting is the fact that most of the noobs have never grown a plant before, no kind of a plant, and that puts them at a huge disadvantage. We all make choices, of which they get caught up in a mesmerizing, confusing plant food, equipment and seed scams from local or internet vendors, buy into the hype stuff like conversion hoods, designer genes/feminized seeds, start with "dro" because it's cool (everyone does it) and then wonder why their plants look like shit after 2 months of failed attempts to get anything going.

And to preach and brag about removing the very unit that produces bud is just hilarious!

UB

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Ya even i have always wondered what was up with thinking that removing plant matter would somehow increase this 'energy' that so many people claim a plant has in it (there's a thread called 'sun charged water', omg if you ever get a chance to read it, the idiocy). I look at growing like any other subject at which im learning. Im a noob, but I'm learning. Fortunately, iam an anti-hypist if you will, and i generally hate hype of any sort. Dont get me wrong i bough fem seeds cuz i didn't want to filter out the males, but really it wasnt about hype, it was cuz iam lazy. I also didnt start hydro, and they may have been due to the complexity.

Ill be honest, there's only one thing i get caught up in, and thats learning. I'm constantly on this site, trying not only to gain more information, but to share any i may have found and bounce it off other peoples noggins. I feel lucky that i was intuitive enough to do a ton of research before i started, and ill tell ya, it showed. I screwed up a few times, including some important parts, but it came out FAR greater than many first times do, and this second round has only gone better, thanks to those mistakes.

Anyways, consider that my shout out to those that are here to spread that info, and thanks to the many pros who put in the time to share real information =D

Okay...

First of all, a plant is designed to produce more foliage than it needs. In nature, plants have to deal with bugs and animals, and losing leaves is a regular occurrence. They have grown to compensate for this loss of leaf mass by producing more leaves than they need.

Secondly, one large leaf requires more energy to operate than several smaller leaves that use the same area. The surface area of the large leaf demands that the leaf move quantities of water over distances to keep the leaf cool. This takes energy. The leaf also requires more energy because the stem, from leaf to stalk, is longer. In short, is it any surprise that a larger leaf, just like a larger car, needs more energy to do the same job.

Finally, the stress reaction induced when removing leaves impacts branch growth and decreases internodal spacing. In other words, by removing the large fan leaf the plant compensates the loss of mass by increasing the size of the bud sites through hormonal reactions. Plenty of energy is still available, and as these branches increase in size the amount energy they provide towards their own growth increases exponentially, and proportionally, with the replacement and exceeding of the lost leaf mass.

Thus, by removing a larger fan leaf you force the plant to increase the size and frequency of bud sites. This will obviously require an extended rebound period, which can lengthen the vegetative cycle. On the average all leaf mass is replaced with more, more efficient, leaves within 100 hours. The following 100 hours then allow for amazing vigor as all the branches have access to direct light.

What I think is absolutely idiotic is removing bud sites and keeping fan leaves. You can keep the leaf, and remove the bud site (branch), and the theory is that the plant will focus energy on the remaining bud sites. Not entirely inaccurate... but you wind up with a great deal of "lettuce" and few places to grow on. Perhaps there is a place for this method in a straight to flower clone situation where there is no time to develop the lower branches. But for a grower looking to increase their yield then a little extra Vegetative time shouldn't be a big deal when it can increase the size of the plant by 300% in a very short period. We're growing flowers, which need flower sites. We are not growing fan leaves to smoke. The theory on fan leaf energy has had people doing what I consider to be some bass ackwards shit to their plants.

I find defoliation methods work best when combined with other methods like topping/fimming, and Scrog. Top the plant, allow it to rebound. Defoliate the plant. Allow it to rebound. Scrog the well developed branches. Allow it to fill the screen. Flower. It's like an extra 2 weeks but the difference in the end is dramatic.

One thing I am against is defoliating between weeks 2 and 7 of flowering. Your plant is no longer making new leaf mass (not enough to compensate the loss) so removing leaves during this period removes important growth hormones and energy supplies. After week 7 of flowering there is a lot of evidence that defoliation increases finish weight, but there hasn't been a definitive answer on that process yet.

So to recap... Plants are hearty, they replace leaves very quickly, and the assertion that one large leaf is more efficient than the four leaves directly beneath it is wrong. Apply direct light to the leaves beneath the fan leaf and those leaves will increase in size to compensate as well as develop the bud site they are supporting better than the large fan leaf could. The stress reaction during vegetative growth further strengthens the plant.

Fan leaves are best suited to growing a single strong cola. Side branch fan leaves are best at growing a balanced canopy. It is up to the grower to decide which kind of plant will provide them with the best harvests possible given their personal strengths, weaknesses, preferences, and capabilities.

No one should speak against this method until they have tried it for themselves. I didn't get it until I did it. Now I'm doing it, and I'll never not do it. You can make up your own mind. If you're not "baller" enough to have a spare plant off to the side to experiment on then you can hardly call yourself a grower; not of your experience base at the least.