Deficiency in...?

Lou66 said:
Some elements such as nitrogen and phosphorous are absorbed by active transport mechanisms that arr more efficient than the passive uptake of eg calcium that is mostly controlled by transpiration. That results in accumulation of calcium in the reservoir and salt stress.
Click to expand...

Drop That Sound said:
View attachment 5394173
Yep.
Click to expand...

I think this is the answer that I was looking for. Too much Ca towards the end of the bucket, no control via passive transport.

And I wish you all would try harder to dial in nutes, stop wasting the planet's resources. Go on, ask me if I filter my city water.

You guys do you, but around here, until tips begin to burn... PPM and PAR go up. I'll fix an 'excess' with more, I'll fix a 'deficiency' with more.
 
Last edited:
stayrange said:
And I wish you all would try harder to dial in nutes, stop wasting the planet's resources. Go on, ask me if I filter my city water.

You guys do you, but around here, until tips begin to burn... PPM and PAR go up. I'll fix an 'excess' with more, I'll fix a 'deficiency' with more.
Click to expand...

Plants can be trained to accept a high EC by gradually increasing the EC, but this also makes osmosis harder for the plant.

The plant has water inside the roots and the plant has water outside the roots. When the water outside of the roots (i.e., the reservoir) has a high EC, the plant has to produce sugars so that the concentration of dissolved solids inside the roots is higher than the concentration of dissolved solids outside the roots in order for osmosis to take place.

In other words, the plant can't get water if the concentration of sugars in the roots are lower than the concentration of salts in the reservoir. If the EC goes up too quickly, then it can actually pull water from out of the roots through osmosis.

If you keep increasing the EC, the plant has to manufacture more and more sugars for water to flow into the roots. When it does this, it's expending energy on producing sugars.

Some of us prefer to keep the EC in the range the plant is expecting so that it will expend it's energy on growth and not sugars, but you do you boo.
 
ec121 said:
The plant has water inside the roots and the plant has water outside the roots. When the water outside of the roots (i.e., the reservoir) has a high EC, the plant has to produce sugars so that the concentration of dissolved solids inside the roots is higher than the concentration of dissolved solids outside the roots in order for osmosis to take place.

...

If you keep increasing the EC, the plant has to manufacture more and more sugars for water to flow into the roots. When it does this, it's expending energy on producing sugars.
Click to expand...

Really great information - and I'm hearing that because of this need to regulate osmosis, the plant may grow faster with less nutes.

But do these sugars just disappear into thin air after the plant has adjusted? What's bad about more sugar when it comes time to resorb? How does it affect the yield? I plan to starve the ladies down to 500 PPM to trigger this during ripening.
 
Last edited:
stayrange said:
Is this iron?

View attachment 5393870

1000 PAR, 1500 PPM, 5.65 pH DWC
Click to expand...
Visually, yes, it could be Iron deficiency.
But...
At that pH Iron should be plenty available. Also, iron's only needed in very small amounts, your nutrient more than likely has ample already.
Indicating, you're dealing with lockout from too much of something else.

I wouldn't ever go over 2.4EC to be safe. Plants really don't need any more than that. You're right at the limit already and a touch over depending on the scale you're using.
Plants can thrive with a lot less.

There's a chance it's pH related also, like calcium or sulphur being less available at 5.65.
Add this to a high EC and it just makes things worse off.
I'd try bumping it up to pH 6.

Then, you're running lots of PAR too...that will just exacerbate things more.

"1000 PAR, 1500ppm, 5.65 pH" <<< that's your problem, right there!
 
BongerChonger said:
Visually, yes, it could be Iron deficiency.
But...
At that pH Iron should be plenty available.

I'd try bumping it up to pH 6.
Click to expand...

But that would make iron less available, and we've confirmed that its availability is the issue (regardless of why)? https://www.canr.msu.edu/uploads/images/Plant Ag/SoilTesting_Fig1.jpg

Rather than just the pH, what about the individual elements creating that pH (that compete for absorption)? Increased levels of Ca, Mn, Cu, P, Zn can be responsible. https://www.canr.msu.edu/uploads/images/Plant Ag/SoilTesting_Fig2.jpg

I'm targeting the average numbers on this (500 PPM) chart https://zombiegardens.com/indoor-gardening-basics/cannabis-nutrient-ratios/

While most are spot on, Zinc is over double. https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-dund4ckhpz/product_images/uploaded_images/zinc.jpg I'll have to find a separate iron supplement :/
 
Looks like I could also make Fe more available by increasing K. And I'm reading that molybdenum reduces the availability of iron as well, but not seeing it on any of the charts. https://dutch-passion.com/img/cms/Blogs/Molybdenum.jpg . Mo is super high. Based on the periodic table, we'd expect it to lock out the same things that other transition metals would (they antagonize iron).
 
Last edited:
stayrange said:
But that would make iron less available, and we've confirmed that its availability is the issue (regardless of why)? https://www.canr.msu.edu/uploads/images/Plant Ag/SoilTesting_Fig1.jpg
Click to expand...
Point I'm trying to make is, visually, how can you be sure it isn't Calcium or Sulphur deficiency symptoms showing, not Iron for example? They all exhibit interveinal chlorosis and yellowing in newer growth when deficient or locked out.
stayrange said:
Rather than just the pH, what about the individual elements creating that pH (that compete for absorption)? Increased levels of Ca, Mn, Cu, P, Zn can be responsible. https://www.canr.msu.edu/uploads/images/Plant Ag/SoilTesting_Fig2.jpg
Click to expand...
You're running 2.7EC. Using the chart, how can you be sure it isn't a mobile element like phosphorus locking iron or calcium out?
High phosphorus levels in most nutrient mixes.
Couple that with a very high EC and you have a recipe for lockout.
It's almost always one of the NPK's that's the culprit, they're the most mobile and most abundant.
stayrange said:
While most are spot on, Zinc is over double. https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-dund4ckhpz/product_images/uploaded_images/zinc.jpg I'll have to find a separate iron supplement :/
Click to expand...
If that's true, why add iron, not take zinc away?
stayrange said:
Rather, running lots of PAR without PPM is the problem. Can't have one without the other. They must go up together. Balance the reaction.
Click to expand...
If you have a present problem and you're blasting it with heaps light, then it's more demand on the plant, potentially exacerbating any present problems.
1000 PAR is a lot!
Again, right at the limit.
stayrange said:
Reading 1360 PPM on the 500 scale which would translate to (1360/500 = ) 2.7 EC.
Click to expand...
That's very high!
Likely too high, causing lockout.
Simple as that.
stayrange said:
and we've confirmed that its availability is the issue (regardless of why)? https://www.canr.msu.edu/uploads/images/Plant Ag/SoilTesting_Fig1.jpg
Click to expand...
Not at that pH and EC you haven't, not iron.
Iron's one of the last things to consider.
stayrange said:
While most are spot on, Zinc is over double. https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-dund4ckhpz/product_images/uploaded_images/zinc.jpg I'll have to find a separate iron supplement :/
Click to expand...
If your ratios are spot on, then why not take zinc away?
If your ratios are spot on, just add more plain water, lower EC.
 
BongerChonger said:
Point I'm trying to make is, visually, how can you be sure it isn't Calcium or Sulphur deficiency symptoms showing, not Iron for example? They all exhibit interveinal chlorosis and yellowing in newer growth when deficient or locked out.
Click to expand...

They exhibit quite a different quality of interveinal chlorosis.

BongerChonger said:
If your ratios are spot on, then why not take zinc away?
Click to expand...

I'll just grab it out of the bucket real quick hold my beer =D

My iron and zinc come mixed 1:1, need another iron source.
 
stayrange said:
They exhibit quite a different quality of interveinal chlorosis.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't be so sure of yourself, they can look pretty similar.
stayrange said:
They exhibit quite a different quality of interveinal chlorosis.



I'll just grab it out of the bucket real quick hold my beer =D

My iron and zinc come mixed 1:1, need another iron source.
Click to expand...
So you're still thinking it's deficiency?
Well you do you pal.
Try Iron chelate.
 
Deficiency in the plant... or deficiency in the water? Which matters?

I'll overdose the water to adjust ratios, compensating for minerals that I just can't remove - whether they came from the city tap or from a cheap nutrient that I've selected for economic reasons.

This blend is already performing better than GH Maxigrow side by side during veg and this is an early attempt using cheap nutes (which are difficult vectors with which to produce an optimally balanced solution given their composition of multiple elements), many of which I already had on hand. While feeding to the last gallon.

I appreciate all the help and discussion, but my goals do include: city water, drinking 80% of the solution.
 
stayrange said:
Really great information - and I'm hearing that because of this need to regulate osmosis, the plant may grow faster with less nutes.

But do these sugars just disappear into thin air after the plant has adjusted? What's bad about more sugar when it comes time to resorb? How does it affect the yield? I plan to starve the ladies down to 500 PPM to trigger this during ripening.
Click to expand...

Excess sugars are converted to starch and stored by the plant to be converted back to sugar for energy (e.g., at night when photosynthesis isn't possible). Plants with excessive starch reserves do not grow as fast.

stayrange said:
I appreciate all the help and discussion, but my goals do include: city water, drinking 80% of the solution.
Click to expand...

Plants take up water and nutrients separately. It's not like the roots are sucking in nutrient water like through a straw. They use different mechanisms for water and nutrients and under normal conditions take up water quicker than nutrients, which is one reason why the EC in a res will fluctuate.

So it's cool that you want to do things your way, ways that others have tried in the past, but when it has a deleterious effect on your plants, don't be surprised or upset about it.
 
New bucket, 2.5 EC (from 2.7). Zn still high due to iron source. Reduced Ca, Mg. Increased NPK, Cu, Bo.

Still one plant showing significant interveinal chlorosis.

From top to bottom, I've circled symptoms of iron, copper, boron deficiencies.
ec121 said:
Plants with excessive starch reserves do not grow as fast.
Click to expand...

No wonder my roots are so big!
 

Attachments

  • group.jpg
    group.jpg
    2.4 MB · Views: 10
ec121 said:
Where's your control plant?
Click to expand...

Do you mean the plant with commercial nutes (Maxigrow in this case) to compare with? These aren't clones but F1 seeds. I moved off the GH after 1 week in all buckets. Just rooted some clones of the fastest growing female (: in my conditions. Can test them next. Pic at 10 days in the aerocloner with aloe, 200 PPM Maxigrow, fulvic acid.

IMG_2763.jpg
 
Last edited:
ec121 said:
Excess sugars are converted to starch and stored by the plant to be converted back to sugar for energy (e.g., at night when photosynthesis isn't possible).
Click to expand...

And I veg 24/0 which means those roots just keep on growing! How much of this will be available to resorb during flower at night?
 
stayrange said:
How much of this will be available to resorb during flower at night?
Click to expand...


TLDR:

They use it when they need it... "...retrieved to support metabolism and anabolic reactions in times of need" and this need "varies widely depending on the biological context" (Zeeman, 2022).

Besides feeding at night, the starch reserves provide extra energy during periods of stress, and "in reproduction (roles in nectar secretion, flower iridescence and pollen viability" (Zeeman).

The authors then compare tobacco plants with a mutant who is unable to produce starch reserves. When days were shortened (nights lengthened) the plants without reserves suffered slower growth (Zeeman).

And conclude that they have just begun to answer the question "What is the link between starch accumulation (or its absence) and photosynthesis" (Zeeman).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

M
P or K deficiency?
Replies
5
Views
376
mobutu202
M
L
Nitrogen Burn? Help
2
Replies
32
Views
2K
LemmyGo
L
shiva71
Magnesium deficiency?
Replies
18
Views
1K
shiva71
shiva71
FlyHigh589
Looking to pay someone for help dialing in a friends grow
Replies
5
Views
372
FlyHigh589
FlyHigh589
A
Deficiency? Toxicity?
Replies
6
Views
407
coreywebster
coreywebster
Back
Top