DEFOLIATION . . . . a hands on approach!

Do you defoliate?


  • Total voters
    127

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Artificial inducement of polyploids through the inhibition of mitosis is routine in plant breeding. High temperatures above 40°C have been used to induce tetraploid and octoploid corn seedlings albeit with low success of 1.8% and 0.8% respectively (Randolph, 1932). Currently, chemical mitotic inhibitory agents such as colchicine or dinitroanilines are used to induce polyploidy in crop plants. A typical example is the production of tetraploid watermelon plants for the production of seedless triploid watermelon (Compton et al., 1996).

In addition, an uncommon mechanism of polyploid formation involves polyspermy where one egg is fertilized by several male nucleuses as commonly observed in orchids (Ramsey and Schemske,

http://plantbreeding.coe.uga.edu/index.php?title=5._Polyploidy
EXACTLY......Even when doing chemical seed exposure......The VAST bulk of those seeds are killed! You have to expose LOTS to get even one viable seed! Plant treating is difficult at best as you tend to use too little to effect a real polyploid response. This is further complicated by the Colchicine being toxic to the plant! As you approach the needed exposure concentrations, you approach the plants toxic threshold to the chemical!

Doc

Nice post Skunk!!
 

skunkd0c

Well-Known Member
EXACTLY......Even when doing chemical seed exposure......The VAST bulk of those seeds are killed! You have to expose LOTS to get even one viable seed! Plant treating is difficult at best as you tend to use too little to effect a real polyploid response. This is further complicated by the Colchicine being toxic to the plant! As you approach the needed exposure concentrations, you approach the plants toxic threshold to the chemical!

Doc

Nice post Skunk!!
Yep, only very few will survive i read lots of papers on this about 20 years ago when the jolly roger wrote his grow manual lol
i think many of the myths around today come from the jolly roger thing

i remember reading there was better success when seeds were germinated first without any colchicine
a cotton swab of colchicine was immediately placed on the emerging true leaves as it grew many would still not survive but those that did would express the polyploid trait
i think this polyploid thing has always been floating around with myths of "super weed" for decades now


From: crimson@IASTATE.EDU (The Crimson Mage)
Newsgroups: alt.drugs
Subject: Potgrow-1
Message-ID: <1993Aug21.142957@IASTATE.EDU>
Date: 21 Aug 93 19:29:57 GMT

How to grow Marijuana courtesy of the Jolly Roger


TO INCREASE THE GOOD STUFF
--------------------------
There are several tricks to increase the number of females, or the THC
content of plants:

You can make the plants mature in 36 days if you are in a hurry, by cutting
back on the light to about 14 hours, but the plants will not be as big.
You should gradually shorten the light cycle until you reach fourteen
hours.

You can stop any watering as the plants begin to bake the resin rise to
the flowers. This will increse the resin a bit.

You can use a sunlamp on the plants as they begin to develop flower stalks.

You can snip off the flower, right at the spot where it joins the plant,
and a new flower will form in a couple of weeks.

This can be repeated two or three times to get several times more flowers
than usual.

If the plants are sprayed with Ethrel early in their growing stage, they
will produce almost all female plants. This usually speeds up the flowering
also, it may happen in as little as two weeks.

You can employ a growth changer called colchicine. This is a bit hard to
get and expensive. (Should be ordered through a lab of some sort and
costs about $35 a gram.)

To use the colchicine, you should prepare your presoaking solution of
distilled water with about 0.10 per cent colchicine. This will cause
many of the seeds to die and not germinate, but the ones that do come
up will be polyploid plants. This is the accepted difference between
such strains as "gold" and normal grass, and yours will DEFINITELY
be superweed.

The problem here is that colchicine is a posion in larger quanities and
may be poisonous in the first generation of plants. Bill Frake, author
of CONNOISSEUR'S HANDBOOK OF MARIJUANA runs a very complete colchicine
treatment down and warns against smoking the first generation plants
(all succeeding generations will also be polyploid) bacause of this
poisonous quality.

However, the Medical Index shows colchicine being given in very small
quantities to people for treatment if various ailments. Although these
quantities are small, they would appear to be larger than any you could
recive form smoaking a seed-treated plant.

It would be a good idea to buy a copy of CONNOISSEUR'S, if you are planning
to attempt this, and read Mr. Drake's complete instructions.

Another still-experimental process to increase the resin it to pinch off
the leaf tips as soon as they appear from the time the plant is in the
seedling stage on through its entire life-span. This produces a distorted,
wrecked-looking plant which would be very difficuly to recognize as
marijuana. Of course, there is less substance to this plant, but such
wrecked creatures have been known to produve so much resin that it
crystallizes a strong hash all over the surface of the plant - might
be wise to try it on a plant or two and see what happens.


PLANT PROBLEM CHART
-------------------
Always check the overall enviromental conditions prior to passing
judgment - soil aroung 7 pH or slightly less - plenty of water, light,
fresh air, loose soil, no water standing in pools.

SYMPTOM PROBABLY PROBLEM/CURE
~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Larger leaves turning yellow - Nitrogen dificiency - add
smaller leaves still green. nitrate of soda or
organic fertilizer.

Older leaves will curl at edges, Phosphorsus dificiency -
turn dark, possibaly with a purple add commercial phosphate.
cast.

Mature leaves develop a yellowish Magnesium dificiency -
cast to least veinal areas. add commercial fertilizer
with a magnesium content.

Mature leaves turn yellow and then Potassium dificiency -
become spotted with edge areas add muriate of potash.
turning dark grey.

Cracked stems, no healthy support Boron dificiency - add
tissue. any plant food containing
boron.

Small wrinkled leaves with Zinc dificiency - add
yelloish vein systems. commercial plant food
containing zinc.

Young leaves become deformed, Molybedum dificiency -
possibaly yellowing. use any plant food with a
bit of molydbenum in it.


BAD WEED/GOOD WEED
------------------
Can you turn bad weed into good weed? Surprisingly enough, the answer
to this oft-asked inquiry is, yes!

Like most other things in life, the amount of good you are going
to do relates directly to how much effort you are going to put into it.
There are no instant, supermarket products which you can spray on Kansas
catnip and have wonderweed, but there are a number of simplified,
inexpensive processes (Gee, Mr. Wizard!) thich will enhance mediocre
grass somewhat, ant there are a couple of fairly involved processes
which will do up even almost-parsley weed into something worth writing
home about.


EASES
-----
1. Place the dope in a container which allows air to enter in a restricted
fashion (such as a can with nail holes punched in its lid) and add a
bunch of dry ice, and the place the whold shebang in the freezer for a
few days. This process will add a certain amount of potency to the product,
however, this only works with dry ice, if you use normal, everyday
freezer ice, you will end up with a soggy mess...

2. Take a quantity of grass and dampen it, place in a baggie or another
socially acceptable container, and store it in a dark, dampish place
for a couple of weeks (burying it also seems to work). The grass will
develop a mold which tastes a bit harsh, a and burns a tiny bit funny,
but does increase the potency.

3. Expose the grass to the high intensity light of a sunlamp for a full
day or so. Personally, I don't feel that this is worth the effort, but
if you just spent $400 of your friend's money for this brick of
super-Colombian, right-from-the-President's-personal-stash,
and it turns out to be Missouri weed, and you're packing your bags to
leave town before the people arrive for their shares, well, you might
at least try it. Can't hurt.

4. Take the undisirable portions of our stash (stems, seeds, weak weed,
worms, etc.) and place them in a covered pot, with enough rubbing
alchol to cover everything.

Now CAREFULLY boil the mixture on an ELECTRIC stove or lab burner. DO
NOT USE GAS - the alchol is too flammable. After 45 minutes of heat,
remove the pot and strain the solids out, SAVING THE ALCOHOL.
Now, repeat the process with the same residuals, but fresh alchol.
When the second boil is over, remove the solids again, combine the two
quantities of alcohol and reboil until you have a syrupy mixture.
Now, this syrupy mixture will contain much of the THC formerly hidden
in the stems and such. One simply takes this syrup the throughly
combines it with the grass that one wishes to improve upon.

https://www.erowid.org/plants/cannabis/cannabis_cultivation14.shtml
 

Budzbuddha

Well-Known Member
So my Chernobyl Ultra from Russia is toxic ?!
It's full of that PolyHookaMookaloid and TerpeepeeSluperline shit you guys are debating about.
This fucker still glows with lights out . :mrgreen:

image.jpg
 

Cannabil

Well-Known Member
Ill be posting start to finish picturs and final weight of the plants i heavily defoliated and the ones i didnt. As mentioned before alot of people dont know how and when to defoliate properly and screw their shit up. I been doing this for a long time. When I first started I messed shit up and lost yield but still got good quality. But I was losing 25% yields early on. Now that I have my method down properly for what I run. I increased yield by at least 15-20% if not more

Im hoping that these 2 lights im running right now I can get 4.5 lbs off of. Thats gonna be roughl 6 ounces per plant @6 per 1000w light in 7 gallon containers. As things look right now Im gonna b right in or a little shy possibly just getting the 4. This is also a sour strains so they usually dont yield as high. Anything over 1.5 per light 1000w with sours, og's etc is good. Im going for 2+ per light if i get anything less I'll be upset.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Yep, only very few will survive i read lots of papers on this about 20 years ago when the jolly roger wrote his grow manual lol
i think many of the myths around today come from the jolly roger thing

i remember reading there was better success when seeds were germinated first without any colchicine
a cotton swab of colchicine was immediately placed on the emerging true leaves as it grew many would still not survive but those that did would express the polyploid trait
i think this polyploid thing has always been floating around with myths of "super weed" for decades now


From: crimson@IASTATE.EDU (The Crimson Mage)
Newsgroups: alt.drugs
Subject: Potgrow-1
Message-ID: <1993Aug21.142957@IASTATE.EDU>
Date: 21 Aug 93 19:29:57 GMT

How to grow Marijuana courtesy of the Jolly Roger


TO INCREASE THE GOOD STUFF
--------------------------
There are several tricks to increase the number of females, or the THC
content of plants:

You can make the plants mature in 36 days if you are in a hurry, by cutting
back on the light to about 14 hours, but the plants will not be as big.
You should gradually shorten the light cycle until you reach fourteen
hours.

You can stop any watering as the plants begin to bake the resin rise to
the flowers. This will increse the resin a bit.

You can use a sunlamp on the plants as they begin to develop flower stalks.

You can snip off the flower, right at the spot where it joins the plant,
and a new flower will form in a couple of weeks.

This can be repeated two or three times to get several times more flowers
than usual.

If the plants are sprayed with Ethrel early in their growing stage, they
will produce almost all female plants. This usually speeds up the flowering
also, it may happen in as little as two weeks.

You can employ a growth changer called colchicine. This is a bit hard to
get and expensive. (Should be ordered through a lab of some sort and
costs about $35 a gram.)

To use the colchicine, you should prepare your presoaking solution of
distilled water with about 0.10 per cent colchicine. This will cause
many of the seeds to die and not germinate, but the ones that do come
up will be polyploid plants. This is the accepted difference between
such strains as "gold" and normal grass, and yours will DEFINITELY
be superweed.

The problem here is that colchicine is a posion in larger quanities and
may be poisonous in the first generation of plants. Bill Frake, author
of CONNOISSEUR'S HANDBOOK OF MARIJUANA runs a very complete colchicine
treatment down and warns against smoking the first generation plants
(all succeeding generations will also be polyploid) bacause of this
poisonous quality.

However, the Medical Index shows colchicine being given in very small
quantities to people for treatment if various ailments. Although these
quantities are small, they would appear to be larger than any you could
recive form smoaking a seed-treated plant.

It would be a good idea to buy a copy of CONNOISSEUR'S, if you are planning
to attempt this, and read Mr. Drake's complete instructions.

Another still-experimental process to increase the resin it to pinch off
the leaf tips as soon as they appear from the time the plant is in the
seedling stage on through its entire life-span. This produces a distorted,
wrecked-looking plant which would be very difficuly to recognize as
marijuana. Of course, there is less substance to this plant, but such
wrecked creatures have been known to produve so much resin that it
crystallizes a strong hash all over the surface of the plant - might
be wise to try it on a plant or two and see what happens.


PLANT PROBLEM CHART
-------------------
Always check the overall enviromental conditions prior to passing
judgment - soil aroung 7 pH or slightly less - plenty of water, light,
fresh air, loose soil, no water standing in pools.

SYMPTOM PROBABLY PROBLEM/CURE
~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Larger leaves turning yellow - Nitrogen dificiency - add
smaller leaves still green. nitrate of soda or
organic fertilizer.

Older leaves will curl at edges, Phosphorsus dificiency -
turn dark, possibaly with a purple add commercial phosphate.
cast.

Mature leaves develop a yellowish Magnesium dificiency -
cast to least veinal areas. add commercial fertilizer
with a magnesium content.

Mature leaves turn yellow and then Potassium dificiency -
become spotted with edge areas add muriate of potash.
turning dark grey.

Cracked stems, no healthy support Boron dificiency - add
tissue. any plant food containing
boron.

Small wrinkled leaves with Zinc dificiency - add
yelloish vein systems. commercial plant food
containing zinc.

Young leaves become deformed, Molybedum dificiency -
possibaly yellowing. use any plant food with a
bit of molydbenum in it.


BAD WEED/GOOD WEED
------------------
Can you turn bad weed into good weed? Surprisingly enough, the answer
to this oft-asked inquiry is, yes!

Like most other things in life, the amount of good you are going
to do relates directly to how much effort you are going to put into it.
There are no instant, supermarket products which you can spray on Kansas
catnip and have wonderweed, but there are a number of simplified,
inexpensive processes (Gee, Mr. Wizard!) thich will enhance mediocre
grass somewhat, ant there are a couple of fairly involved processes
which will do up even almost-parsley weed into something worth writing
home about.


EASES
-----
1. Place the dope in a container which allows air to enter in a restricted
fashion (such as a can with nail holes punched in its lid) and add a
bunch of dry ice, and the place the whold shebang in the freezer for a
few days. This process will add a certain amount of potency to the product,
however, this only works with dry ice, if you use normal, everyday
freezer ice, you will end up with a soggy mess...

2. Take a quantity of grass and dampen it, place in a baggie or another
socially acceptable container, and store it in a dark, dampish place
for a couple of weeks (burying it also seems to work). The grass will
develop a mold which tastes a bit harsh, a and burns a tiny bit funny,
but does increase the potency.

3. Expose the grass to the high intensity light of a sunlamp for a full
day or so. Personally, I don't feel that this is worth the effort, but
if you just spent $400 of your friend's money for this brick of
super-Colombian, right-from-the-President's-personal-stash,
and it turns out to be Missouri weed, and you're packing your bags to
leave town before the people arrive for their shares, well, you might
at least try it. Can't hurt.

4. Take the undisirable portions of our stash (stems, seeds, weak weed,
worms, etc.) and place them in a covered pot, with enough rubbing
alchol to cover everything.

Now CAREFULLY boil the mixture on an ELECTRIC stove or lab burner. DO
NOT USE GAS - the alchol is too flammable. After 45 minutes of heat,
remove the pot and strain the solids out, SAVING THE ALCOHOL.
Now, repeat the process with the same residuals, but fresh alchol.
When the second boil is over, remove the solids again, combine the two
quantities of alcohol and reboil until you have a syrupy mixture.
Now, this syrupy mixture will contain much of the THC formerly hidden
in the stems and such. One simply takes this syrup the throughly
combines it with the grass that one wishes to improve upon.

https://www.erowid.org/plants/cannabis/cannabis_cultivation14.shtml
OMFG! I haven't read that in years! Nice comedy!
I don't wonder too, if that is the source of many modern day myths!

Another good post!

Doc
 

jacksthc

Well-Known Member
so you only have grown indicas or indica hybrids? is there a difference in defoling 100% indicas vs hybrids from what you have seen? or are the results about the same? any indica strains that did not like defoling?
most indica dominant hybrids strains take well to defoliating but sativa dominant hybrids strains get stressed out but it does help to shape the canopy if you give them a few days to come round

there loads of different ways to train your plants and redirect energy to the larger shoots, shape the canopy and make the most of your lights


there a lot of disadvantages to a very dense canopy, the resources (light, nutes, water ect) are used up on small shoots/ bud sites, leaves and there a lot higher chance of getting bugs like spider mite, thrips and in late flower bud root ( low airflow in the lower canopy will increase the humidity), as the canopy is so thick you can't see it till its too late !

even if you don't get any problems, all that extra trimming the small buds takes hours ( for a few grams that would have directed the resources and grown the other buds bigger), also you have to get rid of loads more plant waste and its a pain

a large full canopy where air/light can flow though the canopy just helps the plants in so many ways

I only remove leaves and shoots in veg and some in early flower, to get the canopy level and prevent it from being too thick
 

pseudobotanist

Well-Known Member
most indica dominant hybrids strains take well to defoliating but sativa dominant hybrids strains get stressed out but it does help to shape the canopy if you give them a few days to come round

there loads of different ways to train your plants and redirect energy to the larger shoots, shape the canopy and make the most of your lights


there a lot of disadvantages to a very dense canopy, the resources (light, nutes, water ect) are used up on small shoots/ bud sites, leaves and there a lot higher chance of getting bugs like spider mite, thrips and in late flower bud root ( low airflow in the lower canopy will increase the humidity), as the canopy is so thick you can't see it till its too late !

even if you don't get any problems, all that extra trimming the small buds takes hours ( for a few grams that would have directed the resources and grown the other buds bigger), also you have to get rid of loads more plant waste and its a pain

a large full canopy where air/light can flow though the canopy just helps the plants in so many ways

I only remove leaves and shoots in veg and some in early flower, to get the canopy level and prevent it from being too thick
I'm going to disagree with your dense canopy view. A denser canopy means more surface area for the plant to absorb light and stimulate growth. No matter how thick the canopy is, light will seep thru the cracks and hit the inside of the canopy.

The reason the shoots/budsites at the bottom of your plants are small is not because they didn't recieve enough light, but rather because cannabis experiences apical dominance meaning all the auxins in your plant get concentrated at the highest point.

The way you redirect that growth is by bending down the apical site like what's seen when a person LST's.
 

jacksthc

Well-Known Member
I'm going to disagree with your dense canopy view. A denser canopy means more surface area for the plant to absorb light and stimulate growth. No matter how thick the canopy is, light will seep thru the cracks and hit the inside of the canopy.

The reason the shoots/budsites at the bottom of your plants are small is not because they didn't recieve enough light, but rather because cannabis experiences apical dominance meaning all the auxins in your plant get concentrated at the highest point.

The way you redirect that growth is by bending down the apical site like what's seen when a person LST's.
A denser canopy means more surface area for the plant to absorb light only works to a point, buds sites need space to grow so if the canopy is too thick the buds grow smaller

even doing a scrog the buds need couple of inches between each bud site and would you lollipop the low growth on a scrog grow ?

check out LBH's SCrog Tutorial

or maybe the main-Lining Thread

as they both have the same views as me
 

pseudobotanist

Well-Known Member
I don't scrog nor lollipop so you're on you're own there but I'll check them out nonetheless.

Logically I don't see how having more fan leaves equates to smaller buds. If you are refering to small budsites located at the bottom of your plant it's due to a hormonal issue (auxins) and not because light isn't reaching there.

The only other thing I've seen to affect budsites is the space between internodes. Longer the stretch smaller the buds. Tight internodes equals dense buds
 

jacksthc

Well-Known Member
I don't scrog nor lollipop so you're on you're own there but I'll check them out nonetheless.

Logically I don't see how having more fan leaves equates to smaller buds. If you are refering to small budsites located at the bottom of your plant it's due to a hormonal issue (auxins) and not because light isn't reaching there.

The only other thing I've seen to affect budsites is the space between internodes. Longer the stretch smaller the buds. Tight internodes equals dense buds

The only other thing I've seen to affect budsites is the space between internodes. Longer the stretch smaller the buds. Tight internodes equals dense buds

total agree with this comment, this is the thing that happens in the first 3 weeks of flower, the shoots stretch and compete with each other for space and light to be the apical dominance shoot on that part of the plant, with careful planning and training you can reduce the stretch, loads by not giving the plants a reason to stretch

you do this by giving every main shoot space by removing the weaker shoots and trimming some leaves back, so the higher shoots/leaves don't touch and there all start off the same height in flower 12/12

this way all the internodes stay tight and you get best results :)





 

Diesel0889

Well-Known Member
Years and years ago before I even heard anything about defoliation I was having pest problems and had to start clipping away.i know some are with it and some are against it but wow that plant came back very fast and growing better than before and I had know idea what I had done and did a little research on it and found it's been a lot of people's practice all along. I'm sure it may be strain dependent etc. but from what I've seen personally and on this forum and others it's hard not to be a believer. Keep up the great work semper fi you def have my interest in this thread.
 

Cannabil

Well-Known Member
Nutrients, light, temperature and genetics all factor into internodal spacing. There is no one magic fix to get tight nodes. Its a bunch of different factors that all contribute to how well they will grow for you.
 

jacksthc

Well-Known Member
Nutrients, light, temperature and genetics all factor into internodal spacing. There is no one magic fix to get tight nodes. Its a bunch of different factors that all contribute to how well they will grow for you.
6 mouths ago I would have said your right Cannabil but as money has got tight so I decided to do a budget grow in veg and flower, 4 plants under 40w t5's (5 x 8w), no nutes in veg, cheap soil (tomorite), cheap seeds (skunk 1)and don't know what the temps/humidity is so the only things I can control is the distance the canopy is from the t5's, how to train them (removing loads of leaves :) ) and when to water the plants and the nodes are really tight, I have cut down the 1ltr pots so there fit in the small veg cab (12" (W) 14" (L) 12"(H) my veg cab cost me about 50p a week to run in electric as it uses less than a 7kw a week :)


veg room.jpg
 

skunkd0c

Well-Known Member
.If you are refering to small budsites located at the bottom of your plant it's due to a hormonal issue (auxins) and not because light isn't reaching there.
genetics and light play the most important role here

while some plants will produce more yield at the top of the plant, with little lower growth
other plants will produce almost equal size colas on every branch only slightly smaller than the main head
plants that are able to produce colas on every branch will suffer if they receive less light on some branches
branches that receive less light are notably smaller than the others in direct light

putting bottom light on a plant that did not genetically produce large colas on each branch, the extra light would not produce colas
the smaller bottom nuggets would become larger and more dense with the extra light
but colas will not form
cola building and bud formation is down to genetics

peace
 
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