Defoliation

Wattzzup · Mar 24, 2020

GC_Mospeada said:
I yielded 2.7 pounds from that grow...I'm on the way to improving on that by at least 30%....So yeah I get what you mean...People that think defoliating will increase yields must be thinking I can get 6 pounds if I defolled properly, idiots.

GC_Mospeada said:
True...I guess because I don't want to waste anymore time on it. If someone is willing to bet me 50k that if I defoliated my plants earlier than week 6 flower will give me a bigger yield than the non defolled side I will do it.

Completely understand and at least u can say you tried it. I just thought it was odd to dismiss after admitting that you did it wrong.

I’m not sure if it does anything either way. I just tried it on my first auto. Mine was really bushy though so maybe it’s plant and situation dependent.

GC_Mospeada · Mar 24, 2020

Wattzzup said:
Completely understand and at least u can say you tried it. I just thought it was odd to dismiss after admitting that you did it wrong.

I’m not sure if it does anything either way. I just tried it on my first auto. Mine was really bushy though so maybe it’s plant and situation dependent.

Lol see how angry I am at it...I admitted I didn't do it properly but 3 plants = 4 is just a travesty. I focus on yield as a grower so I'm passionate about the things that affect it. One day I want to do it properly as something definitive but I hate waste and I wasted a lot of time on it when there were several other things I could have been focusing on instead; that actually give quantifiable in hand benefits. There is always more to learn btw...do yourself a favour and save defol as last on the list.

Wattzzup · Mar 24, 2020

GC_Mospeada said:
Lol see how angry I am at it...I admitted I didn't do it properly but 3 plants = 4 is just a travesty. I focus on yield as a grower so I'm passionate about the things that affect it. One day I want to do it properly as something definitive but I hate waste and I wasted a lot of time on it when there were several other things I could have been focusing on instead. There is always more to learn btw...do yourself a favour and save defol as last on the list.

There’s another thread with a good video on the thought process behind which leaves to cut. He has good logic but cuts off too much IMO.

Sucks that it didn’t work for you. I’m only growing for myself so I can afford to test mess up and adjust.

GC_Mospeada · Mar 24, 2020

Wattzzup said:
There’s another thread with a good video on the thought process behind which leaves to cut. He has good logic but cuts off too much IMO.

Actually if you want something super useful that is an amazing thing to learn. Research how the Dutch changed their farming habits when fungicides were banned. It will lead you to a method of growing that still hasn't caught on that will give your plants a massive massive improvement to how they are now. I'm not going to spend any more time on defol..apart from bagging it atm cause I'm still angry lol.

GC_Mospeada · Mar 24, 2020

GC_Mospeada said:
Actually if you want something super useful that is an amazing thing to learn. Research how the Dutch changed their farming habits when fungicides were banned. It will lead you to a method of growing that still hasn't caught on that will give your plants a massive massive improvement to how they are now. I'm not going to spend any more time on defol..apart from bagging it atm cause I'm still angry lol.

Uhh I just had a quick look...it'll take a lot of digging. Basically they did it through the use of bio stimulants. You hear that word get tossed around a lot these days but they were the first on to it and this guy refined it. I've learnt a lot off Harley. Anyways, this 50min video is worth more than all the info on defol combined...really good current stuff, that's scientifically based.

JSB99 · Mar 25, 2020

I wanted to talk about a few things that some people might give me shit for. But I swear by what I claim, and would never misguide newer growers.

In veg, the fans on my plants get huge! They get so big on top, they block all the light to the rest of the plants, and they will just sit there getting more and more bushy, but not growing taller. What I do, and here's where I'm going to get some shit, is trim away the big fans on top, to let as much light below as possible. Yep, I trim the top fans. Immediately after doing this, the plants explode with growth! There is absolutely no delay from the plants having to recover! In fact, I have never seen a delay from trimming leaves, and smaller branches near the bottom. The times I tried growing without trimming, the plants totally suffered as a result of all the light being blocked up top.

I have some theories about some of this, but that's all they are.
I've always grown via RDWC. I'm thinking that the top leaves get larger than normal, because of the amount of nutrients being delivered directly to the roots, and could be why they block so much light as a side effect.

I also think RDWC has an effect on the recovery time, or lack there of. Again, with the plants not having to search for nutriwnts, and being provided the absolute optimal amount, the plants recover almost instantly.

I'm also curious about the plants stored energy. Maybe the plants don't have to store as much, because they are constantly provided the maximum amount they can handle.

Anyways, those are theories, but I know how my girls grow, and how they behave under certain situations.

Alright, let me have it LOL!

Wattzzup · Mar 25, 2020

JSB99 said:
I wanted to talk about a few things that some people might give me shit for. But I swear by what I claim, and would never misguide newer growers.

In veg, the fans on my plants get huge! They get so big on top, they block all the light to the rest of the plants, and they will just sit there getting more and more bushy, but not growing taller. What I do, and here's where I'm going to get some shit, is trim away the big fans on top, to let as much light below as possible. Yep, I trim the top fans. Immediately after doing this, the plants explode with growth! There is absolutely no delay from the plants having to recover! In fact, I have never seen a delay from trimming leaves, and smaller branches near the bottom. The times I tried growing without trimming, the plants totally suffered as a result of all the light being blocked up top.

I have some theories about some of this, but that's all they are.
I've always grown via RDWC. I'm thinking that the top leaves get larger than normal, because of the amount of nutrients being delivered directly to the roots, and could be why they block so much light as a side effect.

I also think RDWC has an effect on the recovery time, or lack there of. Again, with the plants not having to search for nutriwnts, and being provided the absolute optimal amount, the plants recover almost instantly.

I'm also curious about the plants stored energy. Maybe the plants don't have to store as much, because they are constantly provided the maximum amount they can handle.

Anyways, those are theories, but I know how my girls grow, and how they behave under certain situations.

Alright, let me have it LOL!

Once you try it you see more light hitting more of your plant it was previously not hitting. It’s a no brainer.

Hash Hound · Mar 25, 2020

JSB99 said:
What I do, and here's where I'm going to get some shit, is trim away the big fans on top, to let as much light below as possible. Yep, I trim the top fans. Immediately after doing this, the plants explode with growth! .......... The times I tried growing without trimming, the plants totally suffered as a result of all the light being blocked up top.

Alright, let me have it LOL!

I'm with you JSB, I've done it that way a few times also. I usually top or LST young,
When I don't its a good way to let the lower branches catch up with the top.

This Glueberry OG (excellent pot by the way) I LSTed the top and defol
this is 3rd week flowering before and after a defol

one week later

this at 6th week concentrating on the upper leaf and leaving the lower

gave her a 8th week pre harvest defol

She yielded 80g, that's good for me. I grew one manifold and got 70g

JSB99 · Mar 25, 2020

Hash Hound said:
I'm with you JSB, I've done it that way a few times also. I usually top or LST young,
When I don't its a good way to let the lower branches catch up with the top.

This Glueberry OG (excellent pot by the way) I LSTed the top and defol
this is 3rd week flowering before and after a defol
View attachment 4513647 View attachment 4513646

one week later

View attachment 4513667 View attachment 4513668

this at 6th week concentrating on the upper leaf and leaving the lower

View attachment 4513652 View attachment 4513650

gave her a 8th week pre harvest defol
View attachment 4513654 View attachment 4513655

She yielded 80g, that's good for me. I grew one manifold and got 70g

Very nice!!!

JSB99 · Mar 25, 2020

Wattzzup said:
Once you try it you see more light hitting more of your plant it was previously not hitting. It’s a no brainer.

Xtactly!

JSB99 · Mar 25, 2020

Everyone always says, when trimming, never remove the top fans because they are filled with stored energy. But all the leaves below store energy as well, and I believe that the fans are local, and mostly store energy for the node they're attached to. I say "mostly" because trimming leaves won't cause the node they're attached to to die or anything.

JSB99 · Mar 25, 2020

I call the big fans that block all the light below, the "asshole leaves" LOL! Reminds me of "Trees", by Rush. RIP Neil!

Wattzzup · Mar 25, 2020

Wait till the botany police come in here to yell at you

JSB99 · Mar 25, 2020

So, about 4 days ago these White Widow were little squat bushes. After trimming off enough leaves to fill a 5-gallon bucket, they all opened up, like a blooming flower. They've doubled in size in just a few days. These were all topped twice, and the ones that are a little further along, I supercropped them. I'll be setting up my net soon. These are around 3 weeks (lost track).

https://imgur.com/UWoEG4E

https://imgur.com/s7E6ap4

Wattzzup · Mar 25, 2020

JSB99 said:
So, about 4 days ago these White Widow were little squat bushes. After trimming off enough leaves to fill a 5-gallon bucket, they all opened up, like a blooming flower. They've doubled in size in just a few days. These were all topped twice, and the ones that are a little further along, I supercropped them. I'll be setting up my net soon. These are around 3 weeks (lost track).

https://imgur.com/UWoEG4E

https://imgur.com/s7E6ap4

Yes I did this on my auto on a much smaller scale and same results

budman410 · Mar 25, 2020

Timing and purpose is the most important thing to me with trimming. My brother trimmed too much early into flower and they defiantly had stunted growth compared to the ones he didn’t do. I trim for airflow and fan leaves that are blocking lower budsites. A couple times I didn’t trim and it wasn’t a major difference but surely a difference

GC_Mospeada · Mar 26, 2020

From what I've seen so far in this thread, defoliating looks like a great way to create a half version of a full sized plant. I mean some plants (not here) are literally the size of bonsai trees. I just don't get it. Is it because it looks better? If that's the reasoning than fair enough. I'll admit I'm a newbie...been growing for a year n a half but I believe the plants should have the last say. Every photo from non defolled growers are ALWAYS bigger, on growdiaries you see it in the yields that get reported in the harvest weeks.

Anyways here's a photo of my grow a week before harvest...It's pretty obvious from the size of the nugs which side I defolled...Also there's only three plants on the left whereas the right had four plants....same yield in the end. So 3 non defolled plants = 4 defolled plants. Done in a RDWC, which meant same nutes, same lighting and same environment...only diff was one side lacking in leaves.

Largest non defolled plant was 230g (took up the space of two) so for a fair comparison the next size down on the non defolled side was 190g...The largest defolled plant was 98g.

JSB99 · Mar 26, 2020

GC_Mospeada said:
From what I've seen so far in this thread, defoliating looks like a great way to create a half version of a full sized plant. I mean some plants (not here) are literally the size of bonsai trees. I just don't get it. Is it because it looks better? If that's the reasoning than fair enough. I'll admit I'm a newbie...been growing for a year n a half but I believe the plants should have the last say. Every photo from non defolled growers are ALWAYS bigger, on growdiaries you see it in the yields that get reported in the harvest weeks.

Anyways here's a photo of my grow a week before harvest...It's pretty obvious from the size of the nugs which side I defolled...Also there's only three plants on the left whereas the right had four plants....same yield in the end. So 3 non defolled plants = 4 defolled plants. Done in a RDWC, which meant same nutes, same lighting and same environment...only diff was one side lacking in leaves.

Largest non defolled plant was 230g (took up the space of two) so for a fair comparison the next size down on the non defolled side was 190g...The largest defolled plant was 98g.

Yes, defoliating does turn a full plant into "half" of one, but it's the half (top half) that benefits mostly from the light. The other half, in my opinion, isn't very useful to the plants growing inside.

The bonsai-sized plants are usually trimmed that way due to lack of growing space.

It has nothing to do with looks, and everything to do with purpose. The purpose being sculpting the plants to make the most out of limited lighting, and allow air to flow more freely through the plants, because the amount of circulation fans create are a mere fraction of that which is created outdoors.

I think the defoliated plants may appear smaller, but I'd argue that it just looks that way because they're thinned out.

When you do a side by side comparison, it's difficult to compare practiced methods against new ones. You "tried" defoliating, but you probably didn't do it the optimal way, which takes years of practice sometimes. You're a new grower arguing against a growing method that a vast number of people here swear by, and have been doing for years, or even decades.

Sure, keep growing the way you are, if it's working for you, but you can't discount other methods because you've tried and didn't have much luck. Anyways, happy growing

TreeFarmerCharlie · Mar 26, 2020

JSB99 said:
I believe that the fans are local, and mostly store energy for the node they're attached to.

I'll see if I can find where I read this, but I'm pretty sure that is incorrect, and all the leaves provide food for the entire plant. I used to strip a lot of leaves, but I've had much better results leaving them in place and only removing large fan leaves that have already served their purpose and have started degrading. The only other times I snip leaves, or branches, is when I lollipop the plant before flower.

I know some people who defoliate have great results, but I personally think it is too risky for beginners to even dabble with.

Hash Hound · Mar 26, 2020

upon further research into my growing stats,

When I first started 10 years ago and really didn't know about defol, and read a few books and they all said leave the leaves alone.
So we did. I was growing with a partner and grew in a shower stall 30x30 (6.25sq/ft) with a 600w HPS
we averaged 75g from 56 plants, ,,,by himself now he's averaging that with 480w of QB and defoling.
Then with my obsessive research we switched to 3 LED x 180w= 540w and started experimenting with defoling.
we averaged 67g from 32 plants
now on my own in a 48x20 (6.6sw/ft) with a Platinum P300 180w and a Timber Vero 240w totaling 420w
I'm averaging only 56g from 50 plants, however I do a lot of experimenting he never wanted to do and some of those plants are less than 20g
I also think a square grow room benefits from more light overlap than a rectangular room.

on another note, our first 10 plants were started 12/12 from seed and they averaged 95g's! with 150g being the most.

Bottom line ,,,,, I should leave the leaves alone :weed:

,,,,I want some QB's

and I should go back to 12/12 from seed :grin:

oh and I almost for got I need a square closet

my second grow, Papaya 12/12 from seed at 11th week, yielded 114g

Defoliation

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