DIY Pro Grows into something...better?

As some may know I have upgraded to the 2012 A51 panels for a while, but I am already itching for more, Guod had helped me out beyond belief and planned out a great sup panel design- though I am not quite ready to order parts for these. In the mean time I figured that I would tinker around on my old panels, instead of selling them, and learning a little more about these panels with some hands on experience.

So far.... what I would like to see happen, would be seperate each heatsink into halve- creating four sup panels, one driver to each- 2 flower, 2 veg dominant. ie WW+R (with nw's+b's for balance?) and NW/CW+B's (with ww+r to balance)

Things are tricky, and since I dont know the draw, brand, bin, yada yada of all of these- im in the dark. Along with the drivers having no info- I need to keep everything on the original drivers. That being said

Panel #1
-Channel 1
x45 Red emitters
-Channel 2
x20 WW
x24 NW
x1 Blue

Panel #2
-Channel 1
x33 Blue emitters
x12 NW
-Channel 2
x2 NW
x4 WW
x36 Red
x3 'Unknown' ("UV+IR")

All of these are on their respective driver

My intial questions are...

1.) What size wire will I need to use to connect these emitters once they are free from the pcb?

2.) Is adding/mixing/replacing/swapping/removing diodes from each driver a feasible thought?

3.) What kind of compound/epoxy/adhesive do I need to use to keep these on the heatsink and mounted? (I just recently learned that thermal paste stays soft... doh)

4.) Am I able to determine what the amps/volts/watts of each emitter is by getting a reading off the solder points? Will this tell me what I can and cannot mix and match?

5.) Could I mount these on Star PCB's? if necessary


My goals:

1.) Create a blue supplement for my Flower cab for the first couple of weeks- I play on the led engine and 2 blues added to my 10:2:3 ratio would give me what I am looking for, thought about star pcb's for these?

2.) Couple flower panels out of all the reds

3.) one/couple veg panels with the remainder

I just wanted to hear what others could forewarn me of, maybe things I am overlooking, or over thinking. Hell, I am curious how YOU would do it.

Ill post pics in a second, cheers every one!

I just tested the diodes on the first panel

NW's- 385mA, 2.896-3.2V

WW's- 385mA, 2.907-2.939V

B- 385mA, 2.89- 2.96V

Red's- Open Line, 2.247-2.29V

I do not know what an OL reading means for an LED array?

Diodes only allow current to flow in one direction. Make sure you orient your leads properly

That seems like a lot of work to improve those.

If that was mine and I planned to continue to use them, I'd add some lenses, take the glass out, and leave it be otherwise, unless I had a means to cut metal, then I'd add bigger and better fans too.

Are those all red and white LEDs with 1 blue in the middle?

Hey Bro

OL= Over Limit in that situation I believe.

1. 18 gauge should be fine.
2. Yup, if you do the math .
3. Thermally conductive silicone adhesive.
4. I think you can if you know how to use a multimeter, I'm a little grey on this one.
5. Sure but it's probably not worth it. Maybe some of those pre-etched boards on Ebay?

Whatever you build think short term cause you don't know the quality of those diodes and they could degrade fast. I would do it to learn something but wouldn't really depend on them for my grow room. But don't let me stop you. I just think you should keep it simple with those. Good Luck.

Eraserhead said:

That seems like a lot of work to improve those.

If that was mine and I planned to continue to use them, I'd add some lenses, take the glass out, and leave it be otherwise, unless I had a means to cut metal, then I'd add bigger and better fans too.

Are those all red and white LEDs with 1 blue in the middle?

Click to expand...

The main reason Im going about this is to get myself a little hands on experience before I am handling higher end emitters, I dont wanna scrap out $$'s of diodes I fucked up just trying to solder or mount em... haha

The plan was to let it be a freestanding heatsink, could be active- thought about mounting some fans to it. (have 120mm Aerosharks lying around)

One panel seems to be on "today's thought process" with 1 completely red channel, and the second consisting of all NW's and WW's, with one blue in the center. Not to say these are some serious quality panels... but they were ahead of their time.

I actually took my recip. saw to one of the heatsinks last night, splitting it in even twos, gives me 42 spaces to place emitters. I am going to start dismounting em and pick up some wire, and extra solder, today.

Thank you FJ! Over limit probably isn't good...right? Could that be telling me I have the wrong driver on? I had mixed them up earlier and it seemed like the whites were WAY to dim. swapped em back and looked normal...

These panels arent going to be lifelong supp'ers, I am just getting antsy and wanting to get into things a bit more. A little training before I throw down the money for the longer term panels/projects to come. Im not too concerned with reselling these, I thought the exp would pay itself off

edit: Over limit on the Multimeter's 'capacity?' Maybe it can't read over 500mA?

Idk man I'm feeling confused. I just thought you were trying to measure a resistance and that your multimeter was reading that you had an open...which wouldn't make sense for 'over limit' though.

Scotch089 said:

Red's- Open Line, 2.247-2.29V

I do not know what an OL reading means for an LED array?

Click to expand...

From what I understand you get Open Line when measuring Ohms. What model is your m-meter? What station are you measuring the Vdc at? I'm no multimeter expert that's for sure but I'm pretty sure about that. Not to spam your thread or doubt your skillz....;

How to Measure Resistance With a Multimeter:
To carry out resistance measurements, power to the component under test must be switched off. A resistor will scarcely short, but typically will open. If a resistor does open, the digital meter display will flash on and off or display OL (open line) because the resistor has an infinite resistance. To measure resistance with a digital multimeter, connect the multimter leads as shown below:



Follow the steps outlined below:
1) Turn off power to the circuit or component under test
2) Select resistance Ω function using the rotary selector switch
3) Plug the black test lead into the COM jack and the red test lead into the Ω jack (here you will see the letter V for voltage, Ω sign and diode sign)
4) Connect the test leads tips across the component or part of the circuit for which you intend to determine the resistance.
5) View the reading and be sure to note the unit of measurement: Ω or KΩ or MΩ depending on what you are measuring.


How to Measure Voltage With a Multimeter:

-->

Before making voltage measurements, take all necessary precautions as any carelessness on your part could lead to injury or fatality depending on the value of the voltage you are measuring. Note for voltage measurements, there must be power in the circuit or component whose voltage is to be determined.
To start, connect the test leads as shown in the diagram below:


Follow the steps outlined below:
1) Connect power to the circuit or component under test
2) Select volts AC (V~), volts DC (V---), mvolts (V---) as desired
3) Plug the black test lead into the COM jack and the red test lead into the V jack
4) Touch the test leads tips to the circuit across across a load or power source as shown in the diagram above(parallel to the circuit to be tested)
5) View the reading and be sure to note the unit of measurement.


When taking DC voltage readings of the correct polarity (+ or -), touch the red test lead to the positive side of the circuit, and the black test lead to the negative side of the circuit ground. If you reverse the connections, a DMM with auto-polarity will merely display a minus sign indicating negative polarity. With an analog meter, you need to ensure the right polarity. Any mistake could lead to the damage of the meter.


-->
How to Measure Current With a Multimeter


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Most times during a troubleshooting process, hardly do we make current measurements. However if there is need for current measurements, connect the meter test leads in series as shown below:

Follow the steps outlined below to take the measurement:
1) Turn off power to the circuit under test.
2) Disconnect, cut or unsolder the circuit and connect the meter in the circuit as shown above.
3) Select Amps AC(A~) or Amps DC(A---) as desired
4) Plug the black test lead into the COM jack and the red test lead into the 10 Amps or 300mA jack depending on the value of the reading you are expecting
5) Connect the test leads tips to the circuit in series so that all current flows through the meter.
6) Turn the circuit power back on
7) View the reading and be sure to note the unit of measurement. Note if test leads are reversed, a negative sign will be displayed on the meter LCD.

Another "E" for effort Fran^^^ and some rep........

The reason current isn't usually measured is because you can easily calculate it if you know the voltage and resistance: V = IR Also, most digital circuits inside a multimeter won't be designed for large currents to flow through them.

Dont worry about spamming or doubting Fran! If I am incorrect I am MORE than willing to learn as much as I can. That's what it's all about

I dont know what brand off the top of my head, its a little auto ranging meter from Sears, just pick V's, amps, ohms... ac or dc. and honestly I didnt know what I should be going with (ac/dc) lol. I think I did measure everything "right," when I had "negative polarity" it had shown the negative before the reading, so I knew to switch things around. Ill have to look at what brand meter it is and make sure it doesnt have a 'capacity/limit'

I think I am safe at mixing and maxing the W's and blue's (they draw pretty close to the same), i think I am going to make Veg sup's priority. And the reds will be toyed with later on

once I start wiring the led's in seriies, Ill be able to take readings and see if they are CC drivers, right? These dont have a minimum V requirement? If not then all I have to worry about it the MAX # of emitters... again, I could very well be wrong and pulled that one out of my ace.

On a side note... I did come home to three germinated Space Queen, yesss

Scotch089 said:

The main reason Im going about this is to get myself a little hands on experience before I am handling higher end emitters, I dont wanna scrap out $$'s of diodes I fucked up just trying to solder or mount em... haha

The plan was to let it be a freestanding heatsink, could be active- thought about mounting some fans to it. (have 120mm Aerosharks lying around)

One panel seems to be on "today's thought process" with 1 completely red channel, and the second consisting of all NW's and WW's, with one blue in the center. Not to say these are some serious quality panels... but they were ahead of their time.

I actually took my recip. saw to one of the heatsinks last night, splitting it in even twos, gives me 42 spaces to place emitters. I am going to start dismounting em and pick up some wire, and extra solder, today.

Thank you FJ! Over limit probably isn't good...right? Could that be telling me I have the wrong driver on? I had mixed them up earlier and it seemed like the whites were WAY to dim. swapped em back and looked normal...

These panels arent going to be lifelong supp'ers, I am just getting antsy and wanting to get into things a bit more. A little training before I throw down the money for the longer term panels/projects to come. Im not too concerned with reselling these, I thought the exp would pay itself off

edit: Over limit on the Multimeter's 'capacity?' Maybe it can't read over 500mA?

Click to expand...

have to drop the fear... fear of what........ it's all in our heads


second. my suggestion.. scrap them.. not even worth changing them out.. only time is if you have a HGL panel with clusters and was really really bored.

order the stuff, lose the fear, and make a new panel. if you don't your gonna wonder you didn't sooner when you ever get around to it.


DIY is very easy, nothing to worry about. just make sure you have some protection ( zeners / fuses ) so if you picked up some static they won't blow..

In order to detect currents that high, you have to use the 10A port (unfused). In this example, the fused port only supports 200mA. Obviously be careful putting large currents through the multimeter in unfused mode. Don't put 10A through it continuously.

You should always use fused mode when detecting voltages or resistances because it uses >megaohm input resistance and thus very little current goes into the multimeter to detect voltages.

Scotch089 said:

edit: Over limit on the Multimeter's 'capacity?' Maybe it can't read over 500mA?

Click to expand...

Does any one know how much harder a multimeter probes are to hold than chopsticks?! what in the hell.. its a lil Craftsman unit, it shows the negative when I have the polarity wrong, but either way... tests OL. When I switch to AC, it jumps across the board from 292-32-OL back to 292 and repeat. I had to break it down in cycles trying to snap pics- I hadn't realized how hot these can get as fast as they do.

Scotch089 said:

When I switch to AC, it jumps across the board from 292-32-OL back to 292 and repeat. I had to break it down in cycles trying to snap pics- I hadn't realized how hot these can get as fast as they do.

Click to expand...

Do you have access to another multimeter? That does look a little light weight. And I don't think they are supposed to get hot dude .

Scotch089 said:

View attachment 2677322.

Click to expand...

Your multimeter is in parallel with the LED as well, so you won't be properly measuring current.

Also, you should be measuring on DC.

This one is a quickie but very helpful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF3OyQ3HwfU

This is great and goes into more detail but very interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBbgiBU96mM


I just bought this one last weekend but haven't messed with it yet.Good reviews and made in the USA.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-Digital-Multimeter-MM1000/202521270#specifications

That's a peculiar multimeter.
I read the instructions for measuring current, and it says to put "the red wire on the positive side of the circuit and the black on the negative".
They should have said "put it in series". I can see someone might get confused reading that.

Scotch089 said:

once I start wiring the led's in seriies, Ill be able to take readings and see if they are CC drivers, right? These dont have a minimum V requirement? If not then all I have to worry about it the MAX # of emitters... again, I could very well be wrong and pulled that one out of my ace.

Click to expand...

If it's a switching regulator (which it should be), it should be able to run a constant current at low voltages without any problem. If it were a linear regulator, it would have to drop the voltage as heat internally, so every LED you remove from the string could result in an extra watt of heat going into the driver.

It's probably a switching regulator though, so you should be fine. Just take note when doing your first tests with fewer LEDs, whether the driver starts taking on a lot of heat.

Also, be really careful with this electricity stuff. Even if the driver is only supplying "safe" voltages, it may be stepping up to some very-unsafe voltages inside. If it was zapping you before, something was not right.

Since you seem interested in learning about this stuff (beyond just taking the shortest path to a working light) you may want to consider learning to build your own constant current drivers and running them off a laptop power brick - a mosfet-based linear regulator can be quite efficient (if you get the combined LED voltage just right), and DIY drivers allow you to experiment with different currents. It's not the cheapest way to go, though, unless you actually want 50 drivers rather than 4 or 5; getting the components at a decent price often means getting at least 50-100 of each.

Also, I have to agree with pepperdust - upgrade to better components before you put in too many dozens of hours. I also started with cheap components, with the result that I have several old panels sitting around doing nothing. I don't exactly regret it, and I guess it built up my soldering skills before I started working on cree diodes, but really I would have saved money by buying crees straight up, even if I burnt out a whole string and messed up the solder pads on half a dozen more.

Scotch089 said:

On a side note... I did come home to three germinated Space Queen, yesss

Click to expand...

Congrats

Just saw the post at the bottom of this page from caretak3r, maybe it isn't okay to significantly reduce the number of LEDs in the string after all:

https://www.rollitup.org/led-other-lighting/654254-inexpensive-custom-1w-panel-observations-2.html