Do you need to add amendments to soil mix with already high quality compost?

dubekoms

dubekoms

Well-Known Member
I'll be building a couple compost piles this summer. I'm thinking on
chopped dead leaves, rabbit manure, comfrey, dandelions, yarrow,
lambsquarters...all sourced from my property. If I add dry amendments like kelp meal, fish meal,neem,crab and minerals to the compost, can I only use that with peat moss and perlite to grow healthy plants? Using a 1\1\1 ratio. I might make some fermented plant extract with dandelions and other weeds to feed once in a while.

What if I took this compost and put it in a bin with worms for awhile, would there be more available nutrients to the plants? More microbial life? Is it even worth it if the compost is already high quality?
 
Rasta Roy

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
Throwing the compost in the worm pile if it's not finished compost will definitely improve it, if the worms work it after it's finished it will increase the aeration qualities of the compost. Worms work my finished compost and it definitely improves the quality, adds microbiology.

I wish I was you running into me like a year ago man. Cause I had all the same questions.

My compost is similar to yours, I use rabbit manure, leaves, and coffee grounds. Once it stops heating up I run it through my worm bins. I used to add all the stuff that you're talking about adding. Definitely ups the nute content! However, growing in anything less than a garden bed or a 50 gallon container you'll find you'll want to add some midgrow sessions boosts but the extracts you're talking about making would help you with that.

My preferred method now is too just compost my rabbit manure/bedding, coffee grounds, and leaves. Then I run through this my worm bin (I mix in produce scraps for the worms to munch on as well). Once the food scraps are gone ill harvest the castings. Cut them with recycled soil, which at this point is a mix peat, humus, and perlite.

In containers (7-20 gallon pots), taking that mix and then adding neem, kelp, crab shell meal, gypsum, and Langbeinite keeps the plants solid from start to finish with just water.
 
backtracker

backtracker

Well-Known Member
without a soil test you are guessing, " Justus von Liebig's Law of the Minimum states that yield is proportional to the amount of the most limiting nutrient, whichever nutrient it may be. From this, it may be inferred that if the deficient nutrient is supplied, yields may be improved to the point that some other nutrient is needed in greater quantity than the soil can provide, and the Law of the Minimum would apply in turn to that nutrient. you can get close if you do the math on the ingredients that you put in the pile.
 
MistaRasta

MistaRasta

Well-Known Member
Rasta Roy said:
In containers (7-20 gallon pots), taking that mix and then adding neem, kelp, crab shell meal, gypsum, and Langbeinite keeps the plants solid from start to finish with just water.
Click to expand...
Langbeinite is loaded with K.
How much langbeinite are you adding per cu ft?

Kelp and compost sources should give you all the K you need. K is very mobile in the plant and you'll generally see a deficiency gone the next day with some kelp/potassium sulfate either foliared or drenched into the soil. But, I never see K deficiencies in the coot mix being that the combination of kelp and compost give me an almost perfect percentage of K on my base cation ratios.

Same with N from the neem meal used in the mix. Putting a 1/2 cup per cu ft gives you a few lifetimes worth of Nitrogen. ..Around 11,000 lbs/acre, Ahimsa suggests around 200-400 lbs/acre. Which is wayyyyy less than a 1/2 cup per cu ft.

N is also very mobile in the plant. This is why I also cut neem from the equation..Only need to hit the soil with some fish hydrolosate or aminos once a week.

What are your thoughts, Roy?
 
Rasta Roy

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
MistaRasta said:
Langbeinite is loaded with K.
How much langbeinite are you adding per cu ft?

Kelp and compost sources should give you all the K you need. K is very mobile in the plant and you'll generally see a deficiency gone the next day with some kelp/potassium sulfate either foliared or drenched into the soil. But, I never see K deficiencies in the coot mix being that the combination of kelp and compost give me an almost perfect percentage of K on my base cation ratios.

Same with N from the neem meal used in the mix. Putting a 1/2 cup per cu ft gives you a few lifetimes worth of Nitrogen. ..Around 11,000 lbs/acre, Ahimsa suggests around 200-400 lbs/acre. Which is wayyyyy less than a 1/2 cup per cu ft.

N is also very mobile in the plant. This is why I also cut neem from the equation..Only need to hit the soil with some fish hydrolosate or aminos once a week.

What are your thoughts, Roy?
Click to expand...
I recommend applying 1/4 cup per cuft to virgin soil but I also caution to not heavily reapply because it will last for a couple cycles.

Definitely don't disagree with you about anything!

I take it real light on the Langbeinite cause a lot of it does stretch a long way. My compost needs just a little kick to provide the potash levels I need. And alfalfa and kelp teas can definitely supply that.

Kelp as a fertilizer source though requires more of it to be used, it being a more expensive and precious resource. I prefer to use the Langbeinite as a sulfur, magnesium, and potash source because I can use such a restrained amount and it lasts for a couple grow cycles. I still use kelp for the trace minerals and beneficial it provides...but by not leaning on it as my K source I can be a little less harder on the environment and my wallet.

I use neem cake as a soil conditioner for it's ability to make the soil hold onto nitrogen for longer. This way I can apply less of my nitrogen supplying fertilizers as well.

I've definitely done all the things you're talking about with great success! My current method just allows me to achieve the same results using less resources, and lets me stretch what I use farther. Which is why I've adopted it.
 
W

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
I do it slightly different with the worms, but with the same results.

Don't care to be putting outdoor compost in my indoor worm bins because you never know what you're bringing in and a worm bin provides a perfect environment for "whatever".

Instead of bringing the compost in, I'll take the worms out. Usually, using melon rinds, it's easy to lure a lb or 2 of worms and along with some active bedding, just add it to the compost pile. The worms do their thing just as well.
 
dubekoms

dubekoms

Well-Known Member
Perfect thanks for the replys!!
Wetdog said:
I do it slightly different with the worms, but with the same results.

Don't care to be putting outdoor compost in my indoor worm bins because you never know what you're bringing in and a worm bin provides a perfect environment for "whatever".

Instead of bringing the compost in, I'll take the worms out. Usually, using melon rinds, it's easy to lure a lb or 2 of worms and along with some active bedding, just add it to the compost pile. The worms do their thing just as well.
Click to expand...
How long would it take for a few pounds of worms to work about 10-15 cubic feet of compost? I would love to keep everything outside but I reside in new england so it starts getting very chilly in october-november, I feel like the worms wouldn't be very active in that weather, probably dead.
 
dubekoms

dubekoms

Well-Known Member
I think I'll do a couple tests.... I'll make some soil with only compost and some with the normal coots mix. Half of the plants in the un-amended mix will only get water and the other half I'll ammend as I go, mostly topdressing and fpe...I'll use the normal coots mix as my control. Anyone know how long fish hydrolysate is good for? I bought a bottle of Neptune's harvest about a year ago and just wondering if it can go bad.
 
greasemonkeymann

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
dubekoms said:
I'll either be fermenting my plant extracts with black strap mollases or organic brown sugar.
Click to expand...
with that compost you are describing it'll absolutely be 100% all you need.
no joke.
and the potassium you have covered
hell just the comfrey alone covers that.
Now, I disagree with some on the difference between compost and castings, for one I think casting used in large amounts is too thick, and it needs to be matched 1/1 with aeration on it's own.
also castings are almost 100% bacterial in their microbial life, and compost can be more fungal (depending on how it's assembled and it's inputs of course)
also compost tends to be lighter and more fluffy in comparison to castings.

I wouldn't bother with plant ferments, I've done it and although it works well, it's stinky... and it's simply superfluous in the mix you are describing.

Rasta Roy said:
Throwing the compost in the worm pile if it's not finished compost will definitely improve it, if the worms work it after it's finished it will increase the aeration qualities of the compost. Worms work my finished compost and it definitely improves the quality, adds microbiology.

.
Click to expand...
man, it's been a long-ass time since I've ever disagreed with you (my fellow compost nut)
but I don't agree with that my man

the aeration quality of my compost compared to my castings are totally different, the castings are WAY thicker, much less spongey.
as far as the microbe improvement, but I would be surprised if there was much of a difference in the microbial numbers, well, ok, maybe solely because the size difference of bacterial microbes to fungal (BIG difference in size, fungi are massive in comparison)
From what I've read a finished compost is absolutely LOADED with microbes, both fungal and bacterial
but a compost pile is more balanced, and a wormbin isn't.
now that's not a bad thing, as the castings as we all now are worth their weight in gold, but I firmly believe it's important to have both in your mix.
Also a mix with only castings as the microbe input may actually deter fungal inoculation, like myco for example.
But our desire for fungal microbes is why many put in bran, barley, oats, or the like in their mixes.
that all being said, it don't mean I don't love ya man
 
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hillbill

hillbill

Well-Known Member
Castings alone for me seem gooey when wet and in need of structure, something with more varied in physical structure that might not fit through a redworm's ass. I use Black Kow and cotton Burr Compost in equal parts to make my compost component. I like close to 50% aeration also.
 
greasemonkeymann

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
hillbill said:
Castings alone for me seem gooey when wet and in need of structure, something with more varied in physical structure that might not fit through a redworm's ass. I use Black Kow and cotton Burr Compost in equal parts to make my compost component. I like close to 50% aeration also.
Click to expand...
like I always say, aeration is crucial for organic mixes, not only because of the increased humus inputs (which of course are hygroscopic in nature) but also because of the microbes, it's not often that you hear about the co2 production that microbes make, but in fact it's substantial, we all know a compost process creates co2, but why?
because of the microbes creating the co2 as they break down organic matter, and all that cycling of nutrients and detritus is creating co2 amongst other gases, and that co2 doesn't go anywhere, and eventually it'll lead to anaerobic conditions, so aeration is key to avoid that, when you water the plant it's getting that oxygen from the water, as well as the sheer fact of the water physically pushing down and out the co2 gases when it's applied.
That's why things like sand that don't hold water or air are useful just for the draining ability.
remember If I make a conventional compost I am mixing carbon and nitrogen materials in a ratio of around 30:1. By the time that the compost is ready the ratio has dropped to around 10:1, meaning that 2/3rds of the carbon has been lost.
where did it go?
carbon dioxide.
yet another reason on how organic grows and chelated chem grows are different
but I don't ever hear or read about that being mentioned, and I feel it's often overlooked.

microbial numbers are limited by the carbon available, not the "room"

Also it's another reason I don't do AACTs anymore, as the soil itself with the carbon balanced will be "saturated" already, and adding trillions of microbes to that is pointless when the population of any given microbial population is governed by it's food (carbon)
so when you brew up gazillions of microbes, give them molasses (consumed VERY quickly), and THEN unleash them on the soil mix that is already saturated with microbes (or it wouldn't grow a damn thing) and the soil only has X amount of carbon, what then?
the carbon available is what dictates the microbial population and brewing up massive extra amounts and then sending them off to your soil is only going to limit the overall number of carbon available at the end anyways, and less amounts of carbon after, means less microbes.
think of it like an island with gazelles and lions already living there, and then you just added an asston of more lions, whats gonna happen to the sheep?
and after the gazelles are gone what happens to the lions?
they eat themselves..
at the end there very well may be less lions than at the start
 
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dubekoms

dubekoms

Well-Known Member
Sweet deal I appreciate the info greasemonkey, I actually got the idea of adding amendments to the compost from your thread.

I've already made 2 batches of soil for this year, both coots mix but different compost. First batch is 12 cf, made with makeorganicsoil.com's worm castings and fungal compost...very high quality plus they're only a state away from me so shipping wasn't bad at all.
Next batch of soil is 6 cf and made with coast of maines lobster compost, I live in new england so its pretty close and only cost me about $6.50 a cf..appears to be good quality.

All in all I still spent a lot on compost, so why pay when I can just make?

I literally have all the materials laying around my yard lol so anyways I'm gonna throw the compost pile on a tarp and cover it, how often would you recommend turning it? Would it affect the microbes at all if i let it sit outside all winter? It gets very cold here so the pile will definitely freeze over, will they just go dormant? Would it help at all to bag it up before it freezes and throw it in my basement assuming its done composting?
 
dubekoms

dubekoms

Well-Known Member
greasemonkeymann said:
with that compost you are describing it'll absolutely be 100% all you need.
no joke.
and the potassium you have covered
hell just the comfrey alone covers that.
Now, I disagree with some on the difference between compost and castings, for one I think casting used in large amounts is too thick, and it needs to be matched 1/1 with aeration on it's own.
also castings are almost 100% bacterial in their microbial life, and compost can be more fungal (depending on how it's assembled and it's inputs of course)
also compost tends to be lighter and more fluffy in comparison to castings.

I wouldn't bother with plant ferments, I've done it and although it works well, it's stinky... and it's simply superfluous in the mix you are describing.


man, it's been a long-ass time since I've ever disagreed with you (my fellow compost nut)
but I don't agree with that my man

the aeration quality of my compost compared to my castings are totally different, the castings are WAY thicker, much less spongey.
as far as the microbe improvement, but I would be surprised if there was much of a difference in the microbial numbers, well, ok, maybe solely because the size difference of bacterial microbes to fungal (BIG difference in size, fungi are massive in comparison)
From what I've read a finished compost is absolutely LOADED with microbes, both fungal and bacterial
but a compost pile is more balanced, and a wormbin isn't.
now that's not a bad thing, as the castings as we all now are worth their weight in gold, but I firmly believe it's important to have both in your mix.
Also a mix with only castings as the microbe input may actually deter fungal inoculation, like myco for example.
But our desire for fungal microbes is why many put in bran, barley, oats, or the like in their mixes.
that all being said, it don't mean I don't love ya man
Click to expand...
Oh and how do you go about re-amending your soil mix? Do you just add more compost or compost and amendments?
 
Rasta Roy

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
greasemonkeymann said:
with that compost you are describing it'll absolutely be 100% all you need.
no joke.
and the potassium you have covered
hell just the comfrey alone covers that.
Now, I disagree with some on the difference between compost and castings, for one I think casting used in large amounts is too thick, and it needs to be matched 1/1 with aeration on it's own.
also castings are almost 100% bacterial in their microbial life, and compost can be more fungal (depending on how it's assembled and it's inputs of course)
also compost tends to be lighter and more fluffy in comparison to castings.

I wouldn't bother with plant ferments, I've done it and although it works well, it's stinky... and it's simply superfluous in the mix you are describing.


man, it's been a long-ass time since I've ever disagreed with you (my fellow compost nut)
but I don't agree with that my man

the aeration quality of my compost compared to my castings are totally different, the castings are WAY thicker, much less spongey.
as far as the microbe improvement, but I would be surprised if there was much of a difference in the microbial numbers, well, ok, maybe solely because the size difference of bacterial microbes to fungal (BIG difference in size, fungi are massive in comparison)
From what I've read a finished compost is absolutely LOADED with microbes, both fungal and bacterial
but a compost pile is more balanced, and a wormbin isn't.
now that's not a bad thing, as the castings as we all now are worth their weight in gold, but I firmly believe it's important to have both in your mix.
Also a mix with only castings as the microbe input may actually deter fungal inoculation, like myco for example.
But our desire for fungal microbes is why many put in bran, barley, oats, or the like in their mixes.
that all being said, it don't mean I don't love ya man
Click to expand...
It is already loaded with biology I supposed it's just hopeful thinking on my part that the worms add some of their slime to it. But you're right, it's not something that needs to be added at that point lol.

My castings are thicker than my compost! I was referring to my finished compost that I sell not the stuff the goes through my home bins after it goes through my tumblers that you're using to hearing about. I've got a big pile stored in a good environment to keep it fresh and threw an army of worms into it. Months later it just feels fluffier (ill grant this is all ancedotal), than it did before. Do think their presence would bring down my fungal microbes? I'd like to think they wouldn't but now you got me thinking.

Definitely never gonna be mad at you for making me think more critical about my shit!
 
hillbill

hillbill

Well-Known Member
@dubekoms, I have noticed thousands of manure piles left outdoors over winter in the northern states. Biological processes slow with lower temps but that is all. I have used mix in bins outside all year though it don't get really cold here.
 
greasemonkeymann

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
Rasta Roy said:
It is already loaded with biology I supposed it's just hopeful thinking on my part that the worms add some of their slime to it. But you're right, it's not something that needs to be added at that point lol.

My castings are thicker than my compost! I was referring to my finished compost that I sell not the stuff the goes through my home bins after it goes through my tumblers that you're using to hearing about. I've got a big pile stored in a good environment to keep it fresh and threw an army of worms into it. Months later it just feels fluffier (ill grant this is all ancedotal), than it did before. Do think their presence would bring down my fungal microbes? I'd like to think they wouldn't but now you got me thinking.

Definitely never gonna be mad at you for making me think more critical about my shit!
Click to expand...
yea, i feel ya my man, all the love at ya
we agree on like 99.9% of everything anyways

but yea, i definitely think that as the worms re-process the compost more and more that it almost certainly would be nearly 100% bacterial, and like i said that's not a bad thing at all, we all know cannabis prefers a bacterial soil, but not exclusively, i can't say that you'd see any difference (who really knows? it's not like we are scoping out all the quadrillions of microbes) but in theory, and as much as I've researched it'd be almost exclusively a bacterial humus input
honestly that's not my primary concern with it, i have recently ran into a new problem that isn't a huge one, but it is something i noticed...
so i made WAY too much compost the last two yrs, i admit it's actually fun to make compost, i know, it's a lil weird, but it is, what it is, so anyways, i am literally still working on my compost from two yrs ago, it's been in a massive smartpot kept "alive" by keeping moist cardboard on it all the time (crucial in the 95 deg summers btw), so that compost is just inundated with worms, like a million times the amount in my wormbin (weird right?)
so considering that i can only use so much, i basicly let the worms do their thing for the last yr, and i recently made a mix with that compost and the plants didn't seem to blast away like they normally do, after going through the "basics" of plant-troubleshooting i found that the compost was creating a good amount of runoff, like considerable.. i had the normal amounts of aeration in there, which is substantial, and the plants didn't respond like they normally did.
so typical response/remedy for that, of course, is water a lil more than normal, in small amounts over a day, and the runoff was still fairly dark, like about the color of dark tea.
nothing changed with the mix at all, nothing was added, nothing was new.
i normally have very very little runoff color at all, so i knew something was up..
so after running a good amount of water through the media, it started getting improving, and then the plants rebounded like almost instantly, in fact the plant "body language" (the turgitity)improved nearly immediately.
that compost was indeed more thick than normal, and evidently the longer the compost is processed by my the worms the more it seems to be somewhat soluble (anecdotal of course).
Side note... this actually may be the reason which actually may solve the mystery of disappearing humus that we all see over time.
anyways, all that is theory of course, but as soon as i "washed" the media the plants responded overnight, whatever it was was making the nitrogen useless, as they were a lil pale green, and after treating the soil they greened up nearly overnight.
but ph would be off in a damp soil like that, anaerobic gasoff would be slowly poisoning the plants, the microbes suffer, the plant suffers, etc.
luckily i have become cognizant of what that looks like, as it's probably the most common issue with dense organic soils.
When i was experimenting with different soil-ratios i ran into that a couple times, where the soil itself is totally fine, just not aerated enough
yet another reason to have high aeration, actually the reason i started bumping up my aeration percentage yrs ago... humus is some dense stuff, and especially castings
 
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Rasta Roy

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
greasemonkeymann said:
yea, i feel ya my man, all the love at ya
we agree on like 99.9% of everything anyways

but yea, i definitely think that as the worms re-process the compost more and more that it almost certainly would be nearly 100% bacterial, and like i said that's not a bad thing at all, we all know cannabis prefers a bacterial soil, but not exclusively, i can't say that you'd see any difference (who really knows? it's not like we are scoping out all the quadrillions of microbes) but in theory, and as much as I've researched it'd be almost exclusively a bacterial humus input
honestly that's not my primary concern with it, i have recently ran into a new problem that isn't a huge one, but it is something i noticed...
so i made WAY too much compost the last two yrs, i admit it's actually fun to make compost, i know, it's a lil weird, but it is, what it is, so anyways, i am literally still working on my compost from two yrs ago, it's been in a massive smartpot kept "alive" by keeping moist cardboard on it all the time (crucial in the 95 deg summers btw), so that compost is just inundated with worms, like a million times the amount in my wormbin (weird right?)
so considering that i can only use so much, i basicly let the worms do their thing for the last yr, and i recently made a mix with that compost and the plants didn't seem to blast away like they normally do, after going through the "basics" of plant-troubleshooting i found that the compost was creating a good amount of runoff, like considerable.. i had the normal amounts of aeration in there, which is substantial, and the plants didn't respond like they normally did.
so typical response/remedy for that, of course, is water a lil more than normal, in small amounts over a day, and the runoff was still fairly dark, like about the color of dark tea.
nothing changed with the mix at all, nothing was added, nothing was new.
i normally have very very little runoff color at all, so i knew something was up..
so after running a good amount of water through the media, it started getting improving, and then the plants rebounded like almost instantly, in fact the plant "body language" (the turgitity)improved nearly immediately.
that compost was indeed more thick than normal, and evidently the longer the compost is processed by my the worms the more it seems to be somewhat soluble (anecdotal of course).
Side note... this actually may be the reason which actually may solve the mystery of disappearing humus that we all see over time.
anyways, all that is theory of course, but as soon as i "washed" the media the plants responded overnight, whatever it was was making the nitrogen useless, as they were a lil pale green, and after treating the soil they greened up nearly overnight.
but ph would be off in a damp soil like that, anaerobic gasoff would be slowly poisoning the plants, the microbes suffer, the plant suffers, etc.
luckily i have become cognizant of what that looks like, as it's probably the most common issue with dense organic soils.
When i was experimenting with different soil-ratios i ran into that a couple times, where the soil itself is totally fine, just not aerated enough
yet another reason to have high aeration, actually the reason i started bumping up my aeration percentage yrs ago... humus is some dense stuff, and especially castings
Click to expand...
Yeah I tried to play around with the aeration ratios before and the mixes that work best have always been the ones that have close to half the medium being aeration.
 
greasemonkeymann

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
dubekoms said:
Oh and how do you go about re-amending your soil mix? Do you just add more compost or compost and amendments?
Click to expand...
well, they are one of the same, i have two composts, one is assembled with premium organic dry meals, with an emphasis on minerals to encourage fungal growth as well as slow release organic inputs to last the duration of the grow, while the other is a simpler compost of only leaves and grass clippings, that's to re-amend them after each run, i only reamend with the amended compost every two runs.
so i have slow, med and fast release forms of all the macros to ensure never a deficiency.
and not to sound like a broken record, but fresh comfrey as a topdress reaaly is almost a cure-all, has virtually everything that the plant needs in readily available forms, with the correct cal to mag ratio as well as silica, nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium and many other nutrients.
here's a link to a thread i had a couple yrs ago, it's a lil disorganized but the information and technique are fairly clear

https://www.rollitup.org/t/greasemonkeys-compost-pile.893592/
 
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