does underfeeding affect bud size?

hondagrower420 · Mar 20, 2016

Dr. Who said:
THAT stuff is NASTY strong - use ONCE in early week 6! See what it does by doing 1 plant and not another. THEN you have a clear starting point if you decide to "play" with that crap any more.......One mistake and it's yellow out city with things that high...When I used synthetics. The one P&K "slapper" I liked was ATAMI's (B'cuzz) blossom Builder 0-9-19....I would hit the plants once or sometimes twice (strain dependent) late week 5 and again at late week 6......I like higher K over higher P. This works nicely and enhances coloring too!

First time I heard that too.....that go's back decades!

Hmm, not something I would do for any reason.....N is FAR more important in veg then higher PK ratio's.....
You want to increase root growth - in any hydro OR soil? The BEST thing is a GOOD kelp extract!!!
Age old has been my go to for YEARS! Maxicrop Seaweed is nice, has an extra bit of K (nice) and less N&P then Age Old but, there is very little there any way. Kelp has been PROVEN to increase root growth by as much as 175% by a (now forgotten the name) College paper. The info is still available on the web but, you have to word it correctly for Google to look up college (.edu) papers......In soil you use kelp meal and some feeding of Kelp extract to achieve massive root growth.......

The use of Kelp will way pass any use of extra P&K levels in veg for the result your looking for. Any company saying that their doing elevated P&K in veg for rooting is more on the fringe of reality in my book.

I'll BET that if you ran 2:1:1 or better yet 3:1:2 and used Kelp you would, in the long run...have better results all the way through veg.. I would continue the 3:1:2 to week 2-3 of bloom. Up the P at that point a bit and then at 5 lower the N and up the P&K again and run it out....

Keeping P low in veg has always worked out for the best for me.....I might bump the K by 3 points or more for a "colored" strain as K helps express coloring! But I have never achieved wanted results by any increase of P in veg.....

my 2 cents on that!
But by all means - if you try kelp and it doesn't do what YOU want - do what works for YOU!
But for the most part...a 1:2:2 ratio is bad for vegging plants and suggesting that for novice growers is a ticket to problems as they have not got "your" methods and products to get the "results|" you do Honda...Any even minor deviation from what you use and what any content is - even your "city" water. Could make a drastic change in results for them! Everything is in relation to the other things....A long hard road of adjusting what they "got" to copy the results YOU get!

New and Novice/intermediate growers.....Try the Kelp first!

Yes. What works for me may not work for others. I do use kelp. Floralicious+.

I also use an enzyme that helps with uptake also.

I wouldn't advise people to use my method.

It works for me an I'm constantly running side by sides to help me determine what are myths and what are facts.

I find that the relationship between plant and environment I nor important that what or how much nutes you have.

And as far as roots and p&k. In my trials higher p&k values in veg will offset flowering on autoflower plants also.

These are my results and I don't offer them as advise to others. Just notes to be discussed.

And yes, kelp is a very good product for hydro.

Thanks @Dr. Who . I know you know you cannabis plants. And you are right. My methods are for me and give me my desired results.

So age old is the kelp extract you recommend? I want to move away from floralicious, but it has fulvic acid also.

kmog33 · Mar 20, 2016

Dr. Who said:
Trust me K, no lack of P in my grows - Organic 2 step soils that I build.......Higher K levels do more then coloring enhancement. The thing is you must take care as you increase.....Too much is bad and it has a small line between ok and too much......

Kelp contains high levels of B vits! It also contains organic plant hormones that do good things for plants that are supplemented with it! By using Kelp you gain not just those (mostly rather expensive) B-vits but those hormones and Fulvic's they contain.....

The use of Silica is good too as Silica helps regulate P uptake, among the other more well known properties!

Got it, as I said wasn't trying to pass judgement lol. I've been looking into organic living soil a lot recently and I'm definitely going to try it out very soon.

So your veg ratio would be like 2-1-3?

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hondagrower420 · Mar 20, 2016

Dr. Who said:
Trust me K, no lack of P in my grows - Organic 2 step soils that I build.......Higher K levels do more then coloring enhancement. The thing is you must take care as you increase.....Too much is bad and it has a small line between ok and too much......

Kelp contains high levels of B vits! It also contains organic plant hormones that do good things for plants that are supplemented with it! By using Kelp you gain not just those (mostly rather expensive) B-vits but those hormones and Fulvic's they contain.....

The use of Silica is good too as Silica helps regulate P uptake, among the other more well known properties!

Bow down. This man is spreading the gospel. Silica is great. And he is spot on about the vitamins and hormones. An public acid.

superbak3d · Mar 20, 2016

Kelp all the way through is a must.

If you plan to hit your plants with high doses of pk, you need a healthy root system to break down all those salts.

Otherwise those salts get stuck in your medium and cook the shit out of your plant.

hondagrower420 · Mar 20, 2016

kmog33 said:
Got it, as I said wasn't trying to pass judgement lol. I've been looking into organic living soil a lot recently and I'm definitely going to try it out very soon.

So your veg ratio would be like 2-1-3?

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I too am pretty uneducated when it comes to organic living soil. I have a good minute before I will confidently build a living soil. But I want that organic taste. The steep profiles on organics are something that should be elevated. It is night and day to a hydro run. Don't get me wrong. My hydro bud is dank and stanky. But doesn't touch organics.

hondagrower420 · Mar 20, 2016

How do y'all feed kelp. I spray it a couple of times and then dump son in my area in flower.

kmog33 · Mar 20, 2016

hondagrower420 said:
I too am pretty uneducated when it comes to organic living soil. I have a good minute before I will confidently build a living soil. But I want that organic taste. The steep profiles on organics are something that should be elevated. It is night and day to a hydro run. Don't get me wrong. My hydro bud is dank and stanky. But doesn't touch organics.

I used to run organic non living soil and I have to say I agree. I think I may start with a buildasoil.com mix and then learn to recycle it lol.

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bobdagrowah · Mar 20, 2016

The beastie bloomz is 0-50-30 so I should use it once then just water on the next water and then back to regular bloom nutes??? Im using jacks classic by the way

WalterWhite810 · Mar 20, 2016

I see some people saying get a better light and you'll get better bud/yield, how ever thats not true either. Photosysthesis says more light = more plant production but that may be all that strain may be able to do, i had a strain under a thousand watt double ended hps and it didnt yield crap and my room is top of the line.. i will say this tho, if you have them under cfls. or some crappy lights that will make you have small buds as well if you dont have enough of them or if you dont have them close enough, its a lot of factors to this. i had different plants under the same circumstances pull 6-7 ounces per plant it was just that strain didnt yield much. But to answer your original question yes underfeeding does effect bud size but from reading what you said you feed them it doesnt seem like your underfeeding, hydro doesnt need as much as soil does. How often do you change your res? that could be a issue. if your like some people and you only change it once during flowering then that could be a issue as well. Have you had success with other strains under the same situations?

WalterWhite810 · Mar 20, 2016

And yes pk booster works!! I use it week 5-7

skunkd0c · Mar 20, 2016

genetics and the amount of light up to a point will give the biggest increases in bud size
if you underfeed them to the point that they are unhealthy then it could drastically effect the yield if you do not know how to bring them back to full health again

N deficiency is slow and the plant turns pale green over weeks, but something like calcium deficiency which is common can fuck the plant up quickly
plants can look nice and dark green, leaves suddenly start spitting out spots everywhere look like they are burnt
leaves can die in a day or two when they previously looked ok

if you just want to make them look pretty and colorful at the end of the grow you can starve them a bit some of the leaves will turn red/yellow/black etc
that is not too much or a problem if that's your thing

if the plants are still green and healthy allover with a lush fleshy texture to the leaves, rather than a dry dehydrated texture
then more food will not make them yield more, i run them from ec 1.3 to 2.5 to test this for myself

if they are healthy that is the best you can do, don't try to force more out of them with nutes, or something else that comes in a bottle, add more light if it will not heat things up too much

peace

coffeeanyone · Mar 20, 2016

Hi

WalterWhite810 said:
I see some people saying get a better light and you'll get better bud/yield, how ever thats not true either. Photosysthesis says more light = more plant production but that may be all that strain may be able to do, i had a strain under a thousand watt double ended hps and it didnt yield crap and my room is top of the line.. i will say this tho, if you have them under cfls. or some crappy lights that will make you have small buds as well if you dont have enough of them or if you dont have them close enough, its a lot of factors to this. i had different plants under the same circumstances pull 6-7 ounces per plant it was just that strain didnt yield much. But to answer your original question yes underfeeding does effect bud size but from reading what you said you feed them it doesnt seem like your underfeeding, hydro doesnt need as much as soil does. How often do you change your res? that could be a issue. if your like some people and you only change it once during flowering then that could be a issue as well. Have you had success with other strains under the same situations?

Hi Walter. I religiously change my water every 2 weeks. I've been running the same setup for a few years now and my results have been a constant. And I've been taking and using clones from the same strain. The reason I started this post was because Each time I start a new run I get different results even though everything is the same. No issues in veg just when I'm in bloom I get varying results on bud size. As I mentioned to begin with I was burning my plants then I used much less but now I'm wondering if I should increase the nutes again. All great fun lol

WalterWhite810 · Mar 21, 2016

coffeeanyone said:
Hi

Hi Walter. I religiously change my water every 2 weeks. I've been running the same setup for a few years now and my results have been a constant. And I've been taking and using clones from the same strain. The reason I started this post was because Each time I start a new run I get different results even though everything is the same. No issues in veg just when I'm in bloom I get varying results on bud size. As I mentioned to begin with I was burning my plants then I used much less but now I'm wondering if I should increase the nutes again. All great fun lol

Are you using tap water?

WalterWhite810 · Mar 21, 2016

Maybe its just a bad clone, usually when i cut clones i cut them from the best mother available and i always cut extras, sometimes they root but they look crappy. i usually use the best ones out the back, maybe better clone selection, as far as the different results go im not sure, may be a number of things, maybe your environment is changing.

coffeeanyone · Mar 21, 2016

Yes I use tap water and I too cut from the best mother and cut extra and use the best ones

LordRalh3 · Mar 21, 2016

Have you had your water tested? Most city offices will give you water test results for free.

Res temps is another powerful variable to keep in mind, that can easily change between grows and change all sorts of crap

-Edit btw you really don't need all the extra boosters and additives and crap that's all just super marked up nonsense.

WalterWhite810 · Mar 21, 2016

Yes as he just said res temps could be the culprit but yeah i think you should have you tap water tested, when i was running tap water i was having all sorts of issues. you never know what type of chemicals your cities water plant is using to clean the water or any bacteria in it.

Dr. Who · Mar 21, 2016

hondagrower420 said:
Yes. What works for me may not work for others. I do use kelp. Floralicious+.

I also use an enzyme that helps with uptake also.

I wouldn't advise people to use my method.

It works for me an I'm constantly running side by sides to help me determine what are myths and what are facts.

I find that the relationship between plant and environment I nor important that what or how much nutes you have.

And as far as roots and p&k. In my trials higher p&k values in veg will offset flowering on autoflower plants also.

These are my results and I don't offer them as advise to others. Just notes to be discussed.

And yes, kelp is a very good product for hydro.

Thanks @Dr. Who . I know you know you cannabis plants. And you are right. My methods are for me and give me my desired results.

So age old is the kelp extract you recommend? I want to move away from floralicious, but it has fulvic acid also.

Yes, Age Old is the one I would use as "GO TO" before any other....Yup kelp carries measurable amounts of fulvic acid - I still use Bio Ag's FUL-HUMIX in building soils.....BTW - K is a "root enhancer".......I think I read somewhere of a kelp sourced organic K.....YUP! found it - goggled "organic potassium liquid" and got this

http://www.liquidfertilizerorganic.com/aggrand-fertilizer-natural-liquid/organic-kelp-fertilizer-potash-liquid/

Keep in mind "I" have not tried this product! They make an "interesting" Organic 4-3-3 that looks like it would be a very nice starting place for a liquid nutrient organic grow!

kmog33 said:
Got it, as I said wasn't trying to pass judgement lol. I've been looking into organic living soil a lot recently and I'm definitely going to try it out very soon.

So your veg ratio would be like 2-1-3?

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For colored plants like about any purple strain - yes.
In synthetic use it was more like 3-1-3. For natural "yellow" strains like Banana - no extra K (Platinum Banana does get the K as it's rather dark purple core with yellow edge's can get down right black looking). Orange and red colored strains get the K too.

For my organic soils, I use a stand alone liquid K that's OMARI organic. Some mushroom juice shit - Now the company is Biolink I'm pretty sure.....Got cpl of cases of the stuff cheap, from when a local grow shop went belly up and the dist. would not take it back in it's "old packaging".

hondagrower420 said:
How do y'all feed kelp. I spray it a couple of times and then dump son in my area in flower.

I add it as 5ml per gallon once a week for adult plants.
The greatest rooting effect is to use right from the get go at the same ratio for rooted clones/seedlings.

bobdagrowah said:
The beastie bloomz is 0-50-30 so I should use it once then just water on the next water and then back to regular bloom nutes??? Im using jacks classic by the way

Deep sigh,,,,If your dead set on trying it - yes, that's how I would - no more and NOT earlier! Do the side by side with one that you don't treat with it to see if it's worth it! (If you can)

WalterWhite810 said:
And yes pk booster works!! I use it week 5-7

I find that to be directly related to the nutrient brand used. You see a very few companies do it in their formulation so it DOES have positive effects. CANNA and HESI are at the top of that list. Your yields will suffer if you don't use their P&K boosters - AS INSTRUCTED!
As for inane products that are like 0-50-30. Your positive effect is ............ denser buds AND dying plants! Not worth it to me! Like I've been saying - I prefer the K over the P in any "Booster".......Look for that in a booster and be happier ( if you use them)

Like I at least implied. As far as synthetic use, the only PK booster for late bloom that I found to actually have good positive effect on actual bud (end) size, was Blossom Builder from B'cuzz (Atami).......VERY limited use - 1 time, end of week 5 or at about 3 weeks left. It takes 5-7 days just for it have effects starting......Keep your "shooting powders" and mega PK blasters on the shelf...

I agree more with @skunkd0c......It took me many, many years to boil down any boosting that worked enough to accept the use of them. Now that I went back to my organics - I find I can do so close to the same - With out any of that chemical "boosting" (yet I do still play with K for other reasons) that I don't miss any of the late growth juggling of mixing this and that for "special" results...

I give you guys what I've learned - shit dudes, sometimes I even go back into decades old journal notes for answers.....It should be considered minor short cuts to your goals.....I just try and cut you off from dead end roads or improving/streamlining what you do now.....

GOOD LUCK!

bobdagrowah · Mar 21, 2016

Thanks dr who ill use it at 1\8 strength instead of 1/4

skunkd0c · Mar 21, 2016

Dr. Who said:
.

I agree more with @skunkd0c......It took me many, many years to boil down any boosting that worked enough to accept the use of them. Now that I went back to my organics - I find I can do so close to the same - With out any of that chemical "boosting" (yet I do still play with K for other reasons) that I don't miss any of the late growth juggling of mixing this and that for "special" results...

I give you guys what I've learned - shit dudes, sometimes I even go back into decades old journal notes for answers.....It should be considered minor short cuts to your goals.....I just try and cut you off from dead end roads or improving/streamlining what you do now.....

GOOD LUCK!

just keeping the plant healthy (lush fleshy and dark green) is all that is needed imo
if the genetics allow it the plant will make large buds
increasing the light can help
some good growers swear by products like bud candy, each to their own,

its mostly genetics imo, i do not think 1000w hps makes much difference
600hps gives plenty of light at the canopy when 10-12 inches away i see plenty of large colas
although i find 600w is a fair bit better than 400w imo, 600w is the cut off point for me i have not grown with 1000w hps in many years now

peace

does underfeeding affect bud size?

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