Earth Juice PH organic soil problem. Help needed badly..

anomaly1990

Member
My tap water out straight away is around 7.00 ph but after adding 15ml EJ grow and 10ml cataylist to a gallon of water it brings it way down to 5.something i have the earth juice ph up but the website says that ph'ing is not necessary and i have read places that organic solutions in soil with a ph of 5 are ok because the creatures in the soil break it down quickly and produce a balanced ph. My question is should i be using the earth juice ph up to bring my solution to 6.5 or does it matter? I feed every other watering and when i water i use straight from tap filtered through a garden dechlorinator which i say is about 7.00 ph so watering with that and then feeding with a nutrient solution that is around 5.7ish sounds really bad.. but is it? Sorry if this is confusing you because it certainly confuses me.. any help would be spectacular.

also if anyone can tell me what the problem with my fan leaves i attached a pic. thanks everyone!
 

dam612

Well-Known Member
are you letting it bubble for a day or so? its should be perfect after a good bubble
 

anomaly1990

Member
it suggests bubbling for hydro on the back of the EJ bottle but no i haven't. I have read that its great if you bubble but its not necessary. Is it still ok if i don't bubble or is 5.00 still far to low for organic soil?
 
Bubbling does not always bring the ph up to acceptable levels. And 36 hours is the very most you want to bubble water with any EJ mix. This is why they sell EJ natural ph up and down.
 
Yes, 5 is too low for organic soil grow. It's the very lowest PH your plants could survive. The PH scale is 5-7. So it's obvious you shoot for 6. If after bubbling for 12-36 hours and your PH is still 5, you need to add the PH up. Just make sure to add it at least a few hours before feed so you can re-check PH before feeding because it can fluctuate. Basically, a PH of 5 means your soil is 10 times more acidic than with a PH of 6. PH of 5 is 100 times more acidic than a PH of 7. You need to get up up and away from 5.

Please link this page where it says you do not need to properly ph organic soil. Extremely and strongly acid soils (pH 4.0-5.0) can have high concentrations of soluble aluminum, iron and manganese which may be toxic to the growth of MJ. A pH range of approximately 6 to 7 promotes the most ready availability of plant nutrients, but 6.5 seems to be the golden number for organic soil, hydro is 5.8.

What is your medium? Is it actual soil, or a soil-less mix? As for your pic being I'm not an expert I shouldn't say. But I can say one thing, no matter what your medium, you need to be adding a 1/2 to 1 cup of dolomite lime(5 gallon) to make the soil PH stable.
 
If you don't want to bubble just use the Earth Juice PH up. It DOES NOT kill microbes in the soil, it's ALL NATURAL. Many other brands of organic and of course synthetic up and down will kill the Earth Juice nutes, but EJ up and down is meant for EJ organic growing, no matter what the EJ haters say.
 

anomaly1990

Member
Yes, 5 is too low for organic soil grow. It's the very lowest PH your plants could survive. The PH scale is 5-7. So it's obvious you shoot for 6. If after bubbling for 12-36 hours and your PH is still 5, you need to add the PH up. Just make sure to add it at least a few hours before feed so you can re-check PH before feeding because it can fluctuate. Basically, a PH of 5 means your soil is 10 times more acidic than with a PH of 6. PH of 5 is 100 times more acidic than a PH of 7. You need to get up up and away from 5.

Please link this page where it says you do not need to properly ph organic soil. Extremely and strongly acid soils (pH 4.0-5.0) can have high concentrations of soluble aluminum, iron and manganese which may be toxic to the growth of MJ. A pH range of approximately 6 to 7 promotes the most ready availability of plant nutrients, but 6.5 seems to be the golden number for organic soil, hydro is 5.8.

What is your medium? Is it actual soil, or a soil-less mix? As for your pic being I'm not an expert I shouldn't say. But I can say one thing, no matter what your medium, you need to be adding a 1/2 to 1 cup of dolomite lime(5 gallon) to make the soil PH stable.

http://www.hydro-organics.com/home/index.php?categoryID=558

If you click the regular feeding chart or even the advanced for that matter it states that it is not necessary to ph. And here is another question say if i started bubbling my EJ before feeding for 24 hour what if i did not have time one day and just threw it together and fed right away because i had been feeding them the 24 hour bubble solution would feeding them a non bubbled solution with the ph up harm them? Also can anyone tell me what the def i am dealing with is in the attached photo? I am still scratching my head on that one and it seems to be spreading....
 

anomaly1990

Member
I just ordered an air pump air line and two air stones so i can start bubbling. Just one more thing that makes me wonder is that on the bottle it says that when you mix it for soil you need to use it right away and how come EJ does not just recommend bubbling to begin with? And also on the back of the EJ natural ph up it says for use in hydro but it does not say for use in soil..... I love the idea of earth juice but it seems like it takes a bit of getting used to. I really appreciate everyone's help so far!
 

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
it suggests bubbling for hydro on the back of the EJ bottle but no i haven't. I have read that its great if you bubble but its not necessary. Is it still ok if i don't bubble or is 5.00 still far to low for organic soil?
First off, the most important question. Is there Lime (Dolomitic or Calcitic), in your *organic* soil?

If not, why not? If so, how much?

With the lime, the pH of the EJ doesn't really matter. It IS better if you bubble it for a few days, along with the Catalyst. Brings the pH up and gets the beasties going. You do have Catalyst, yes?

Do NOT worry about the pH+-. With the addition of lime in the mix and a healthy micro herd, it's a non issue.

Wet
 

anomaly1990

Member
First off, the most important question. Is there Lime (Dolomitic or Calcitic), in your *organic* soil?

If not, why not? If so, how much?

With the lime, the pH of the EJ doesn't really matter. It IS better if you bubble it for a few days, along with the Catalyst. Brings the pH up and gets the beasties going. You do have Catalyst, yes?

Do NOT worry about the pH+-. With the addition of lime in the mix and a healthy micro herd, it's a non issue.

Wet
I use Fox Farm: Ocean Forest with bone meal and kelp meal mixed in. I don't know if there is lime in there soil and it worry's me to put more lime in my soil because my home water is very hard like so hard that if it gets on the leaves it will leave white spot residue.. I don't know anything about lime but i think it will probably be part of my next grow. Any word if FF adds lime into the ocean forest mix?
 
OK, here it is. :wall:

btw-I did see that pH: The fertilizer solution does not require pH adjustment.

After emailing a friend of mine who is a medical grower in Michigan, I now have to digress from my early statement, at least partially.

My friend does not use EJ but a local grower he knows does, and he recalls a conversation with this local grower. In the 5+ years he had been using EJ in soil-less mediums, he had never checked the PH of the mix before feeding. From his recollection of the conversation the grower stated that bubbling would raise the PH a bit naturally but it was meaningless as the PH of the water and nutes didn't matter as long as the soil maintained it's PH.
My friend also added, unless the PH of the water/mix is lower than 5, there should be no reason to up the PH at all because organics feed the microbes, and the microbes than feed the plant, and between that process the PH difference is dealt with. But being you say you have a 5 PH mix, with EJ, as long as you have a good soil-less medium(pro-mix or peat/perlite/vermiculite/maybe 10-20% worm castings) with the dolomite lime to maintain a consistent PH in the soil, you could get away with not manually raising your PH mix before feed. BUT. It wouldn't hurt to do so in my opinion because from my understanding it would be safer and healthier to up your PH only to high 5s or very low 6s, since the natural organic process, at least with EJ, raises the PH. So feeding a water/mix with a PH of 6.5 or higher may be unhealthy for the plants, at the high 5s or low 6s it would probably be safe, much safer than leaving it at 5 or lower. My opinion only.

I also took a look at some other forums on this specific issue as I have only been using EJ a short while and I want to master it, and I found many veteran EJ growers, especially medical marijuana specific, DO NOT PH their mix for the very reasons I stated above.

So what I will do on my next grow, and what you should do now, is don't PH your EJ mix at all. Just bubble for 24 hours with the pump and airstone you ordered and feed. See what happens. If results are great than perfect, if not than I would up the PH to 6 before feeding. Either get a expensive soil PH meter or use the just as accurate powder kits and check the runoff and/or the actual soil for PH levels every week and see what it's doing.

I'm glad I came across this post because I have been uping my EJ mixes PH to 6.5 or higher throughout my entire first organic grow, which was successful, but the yield was questionable and I had numerous issues especially in veg an dearly flower with similar deficiencies like the one you have. Although for me it was a cal/mag deficiency that may or may not have caused PH issues in the soil, and the lime in the soil took care of that.

Lesson I learned here was don't pretend to know everything. Good Luck ;-)
 
I'm looking at the back of the bottles of my EJ grow and PH UP. On the 3.75 liter bottle of grow I see nothing that states you need to use it right away. From the HydroOrganics symbol at the top left going down past the "Shake Vigorously Before Each Use", I see manual application chart, the recirculating applications for hydro. Then I see "Aerate solution. Maintain pH at 5.4-6.3. Maximum pH 6.4. Agitate solution during applications. Drain and flush with clean water every 7 days." Then it goes into hydro use. But I am not seeing anything that states you need to use it right away for soil. And I know for a fact from many threads I've read that have had lengthy EJ feed schedules that bubbling for 24-36 is a normal practice for soil/soil-less.
As for the pH UP, on the bottle itself it does only mention hydro but I think this is because it's emphasizing it is SAFE for hydro rather than meaning it's only for hydro. Here is what's stated at many sites that sell this product, "[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Use Earth Juice Natural Up to raise the pH of liquid plant fertilizers, foliage sprays and soil. This is the real stuff derived from a natural source. Enhances nutrient uptake for overall better growth and development. Free flowing, top quality, professional strength crystals.[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Mix a tablespoon of Natural Up or two as needed per gallon. Apply to soils and mediums. Test pH the next day. Continue adding as needed, until desired pH is achieved. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Often used for hydroponics but, it's a good way to adjust pH without the use of heavy bags of lime and, it allows you to spot treat areas within a garden without effecting the whole area at once and then if you want to change the use in that area some time later, you can use Natural Down to turn things around again.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It's definitely a learning curve with EJ.
[/FONT]
 
Ouch. That's expensive soil. "Ocean Forest consists of rich composted forest humus, Spaghnum peat, bat guano, fish, crab, shrimp and Norwegian kelp meals, premium earthworm castings and oyster shells to ensure a balanced pH." It's pretty much pHed for the first few weeks maybe but dolomite lime is definitely needed for the long haul, but it should be added at the very beginning as it takes time to break down and deliver, which would work perfect with the FFOF. And since FFOF is peat based, and ALL peat based mixes need lime because they're so acidic, you need it to. 1 TBSP per gallon of soil. Some people say there is dolomite lime in it but I'm not seeing it in the ingredients and most who use it say it's needed by week 4 anyway.
 

PeyoteReligion

Well-Known Member
OK, here it is. :wall:

btw-I did see that pH: The fertilizer solution does not require pH adjustment.

After emailing a friend of mine who is a medical grower in Michigan, I now have to digress from my early statement, at least partially.

My friend does not use EJ but a local grower he knows does, and he recalls a conversation with this local grower. In the 5+ years he had been using EJ in soil-less mediums, he had never checked the PH of the mix before feeding. From his recollection of the conversation the grower stated that bubbling would raise the PH a bit naturally but it was meaningless as the PH of the water and nutes didn't matter as long as the soil maintained it's PH.
My friend also added, unless the PH of the water/mix is lower than 5, there should be no reason to up the PH at all because organics feed the microbes, and the microbes than feed the plant, and between that process the PH difference is dealt with. But being you say you have a 5 PH mix, with EJ, as long as you have a good soil-less medium(pro-mix or peat/perlite/vermiculite/maybe 10-20% worm castings) with the dolomite lime to maintain a consistent PH in the soil, you could get away with not manually raising your PH mix before feed. BUT. It wouldn't hurt to do so in my opinion because from my understanding it would be safer and healthier to up your PH only to high 5s or very low 6s, since the natural organic process, at least with EJ, raises the PH. So feeding a water/mix with a PH of 6.5 or higher may be unhealthy for the plants, at the high 5s or low 6s it would probably be safe, much safer than leaving it at 5 or lower. My opinion only.

I also took a look at some other forums on this specific issue as I have only been using EJ a short while and I want to master it, and I found many veteran EJ growers, especially medical marijuana specific, DO NOT PH their mix for the very reasons I stated above.

So what I will do on my next grow, and what you should do now, is don't PH your EJ mix at all. Just bubble for 24 hours with the pump and airstone you ordered and feed. See what happens. If results are great than perfect, if not than I would up the PH to 6 before feeding. Either get a expensive soil PH meter or use the just as accurate powder kits and check the runoff and/or the actual soil for PH levels every week and see what it's doing.

I'm glad I came across this post because I have been uping my EJ mixes PH to 6.5 or higher throughout my entire first organic grow, which was successful, but the yield was questionable and I had numerous issues especially in veg an dearly flower with similar deficiencies like the one you have. Although for me it was a cal/mag deficiency that may or may not have caused PH issues in the soil, and the lime in the soil took care of that.

Lesson I learned here was don't pretend to know everything. Good Luck ;-)
Very well said plus rep. Took words out of my mouth. I suggest you use sunshine #4 soilless mix. Per mixed with dolomite lime, but it helps to add a little extra to the sunshine.
 

anomaly1990

Member
Thanks so much for the good information! I guess i am kinda screwed because i have not limed and am almost about to go into flower and i have ordered the air pump and air stones so maybe i will do like a over night bubble and then feed in the morning maybe like 15 hours or so. Hopefully my soil is healthy enough to take it but as i have not been bubbling for the last 6 feedings with EJ and i have not experienced any kind of difficulties other than the strange deficiency i posted a pic of. I am glad someone could confirm that the benies will balance the PH before the plant has acess to them. Would it be a bad idea if i were to bubble for say three feedings but then one feeding i did not bubble (say i was in a hurry) would the PH flux mess up everything?
 

anomaly1990

Member
Oh and one more question if i am doing a schedule of W-W-F-W-W-F and i water with tap water with ph around 7 but then i am feeding the bubbled EJ mix with a ph from 5-6.5 is that considered a bad ph drop i know that from 6-5 its 10X more acid so does that mean i should PH down my tap water to 6.5 or should i leave it at 7? lol
 

goDsnataS

Active Member
I use the roots organics line, general organics calmag, dynagro protekt, with ro water, and it drops the ph to the low to mid 4's. I emailed aurora and their advice was to bubble for 24 hours, and if necessary, raise it to 5.6-6. After 24 hours mixing and aerating with a water pump and airstone, the ph remained the same. Plenty of foam, but no change. So I upped it to 5.6 with earth juice natural up, and fed my plants. I ended up a few really limp leaves that were still green when they died. Since then I've simply used natural up to raise it to 6.3 and my plants seem very happy.

When watering only, I will lower the ph from the low 7's to 6.8 with a little humic acid.
 

goDsnataS

Active Member
I'm also considering an in home filtering system. Does anyone have any experience with this particular setup?

http://www.hydroponics.net/i/135447

If this filters out the chlorine and chloramine from the tap while leaving the buffers and micro nutes, it could make things a lot easier. No need for cal mag, and less ph up required. Even though EJ is a natural up, it still seems like a lot of potassium to be adding.
 

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
Thanks so much for the good information! I guess i am kinda screwed because i have not limed and am almost about to go into flower and i have ordered the air pump and air stones so maybe i will do like a over night bubble and then feed in the morning maybe like 15 hours or so. Hopefully my soil is healthy enough to take it but as i have not been bubbling for the last 6 feedings with EJ and i have not experienced any kind of difficulties other than the strange deficiency i posted a pic of. I am glad someone could confirm that the benies will balance the PH before the plant has acess to them. Would it be a bad idea if i were to bubble for say three feedings but then one feeding i did not bubble (say i was in a hurry) would the PH flux mess up everything?
Not to worry. You can still add lime as a top dress. Takes a bit longer, but will be there for you in flower.

FFOF does add oyster shell flour as a liming agent. Problem is, they just don't add enough. Seems to run out after ~6 weeks or so.

Add 2tbl/gallon of mix, or 1cup/cf of mix. Ex:3 gallon pot=6tbl of dolomite lime.

Add the lime and forget about the pH. Bubbling the EJ is best, but if you have to just mix and add, that's no big deal either. I bubble the EJ more to get the bacteria going than I do the pH. The lime and micro herd will take care of the pH, whether it's 6.5 or 5.5.

Wet
 
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