nomofatum
Well-Known Member
Algae for pills and liquids, trees for buds and fruits... both make more sense for different crops.
Ethyl methanesulfonate (EMS) - Mutagen
- Thread starter nomofatum
- Start date
Lysemith, Lowkey
Well-Known Member
Back onto mutations! Super awesome idea! Theoretically if the mutation is going to make the plant a dud, i.e. die for some reason, it should make sense it would happen before the seed even germinates. Just like mutations in our own offspring result in prenatal natural abortions.
I heard of people experimenting with growth mutagens in the 70's (it was even rumored that that is where DJ Shorts mutation stock came from) and they reported a 1/3 loss in germination rate, depending on how heavily they dosed the seeds. It was also said that they experienced more mutations and an increased loss in germination rates, in some cases 95%+. I think they stopped their experiments because all things dosed with the mutagen turned out sterile.
I heard of people experimenting with growth mutagens in the 70's (it was even rumored that that is where DJ Shorts mutation stock came from) and they reported a 1/3 loss in germination rate, depending on how heavily they dosed the seeds. It was also said that they experienced more mutations and an increased loss in germination rates, in some cases 95%+. I think they stopped their experiments because all things dosed with the mutagen turned out sterile.
nomofatum
Well-Known Member
What mutagen, being sterile could also be a huge advantage. For a business that could mean a clone only strain that could have it's DNA protected as IP and you couldn't breed your way around it. Would be extra interesting if it would let the mexican's grow seed free weed.
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Lysemith, Lowkey
Well-Known Member
Wow, for some reason that hadn't occurred to me. There has got to be some reason the project was 86ed.
The only thing I can remember about the compound is that it began with a t.
The only thing I can remember about the compound is that it began with a t.
nomofatum
Well-Known Member
Lol, that doesn't help much.
bf80255
Well-Known Member
like i said, its just making random mutaions, thats not science
genetic manipulation of plants genomes is pretty far along at this point (adding animal DNA) so I really fail to see what a closet breeder with minimal experience in mutagens would have to bring to the table as far as improving cultivars and varieties via EMS. What do you think youd find that big breeders like Sam skunkman have been experimenting with this stuff for decades havent come across yet? some super weed or something? if your plants survive the teatment (like 1%) and are mutated the mutation will most likely be deletorious and will not only not benefit the plant but will probably kill it.
then lets say you were successful and you got a 1 in a million plant that well say grows an 8 week cola in 6 weeks, you still need to stabalize that trait to ensure that its passed on to the progeny.
in summation, Mutagens are not necessary in the least bit, if you wanted to find "new" genes in the cannabis genome you need only source a landrace population and start growing! breeding is about selections and a landrace population will give you plenty of variety (mutations) to find whatever it is that your after.
nomofatum
Well-Known Member
You need to read before you type. The survivability is much higher than 1 percent, higher than 50% from what I have read and at proper dosage much higher.
I think the big breeders have been using this stuff for decades and I think many of the advancements are a result of mutation through radiation or mutagens. I would bet that some or all of your favorite strains have genes from one or more intentionally mutated descendants.
Use of mutagens or radiation has greatly sped up breeding results in multiple crops, it's quite reasonable that they would be very useful in cannabis as well.
I do admit that it will be hard to find something useful when even if I setup for max plants with SOG I could only have like 200 plants going at once and that would mean running a huge test instead of running a production crop. A field outdoors where you could plant thousands would make finding the golden mutation much easier.
bryleetch
Well-Known Member
I think this would just be more of a fun thing to do as a hobby grower to see what would happen first hand when using EMS. I think it'd be kind of foolish to think that anyone could just start mutating genetics at home and get results immediately. It would take years of experience, intensive studying, and the proper botanical research facilities to be even remotely successful. That being said... you have to start somewhere and I don't think anyone should be discourage from wanting to try something that has potential that everyone could benefit from
bf80255
Well-Known Member
I dont NEED to do anything.
youve clearly read about 3 pages of info on some canna forum and are now an expert on the subject but for anyone else lurking.
dont listen to anything this guy is typing he hasnt done 1 of the things hes so adamantly defending as truths and I will tell you almost everything he is saying is wrong, im not trying to start shit just trying to clarify
misinformation is no bueno
not 1 single breeder on this planet has a legit strain started with a mutagen.
prove me wrong.
bf80255
Well-Known Member
the main issue is the same one brought up with GMO technologies who knows what unforseen issues could arise by introducing random mutations that you have no control over or even a way of mapping and tracking, not all traits are as easily visible as bud color or yield. even big AG companies like monsanto fuck up occasionally with mutating plants and they are doing it with millions of dollars and legit facilities/scientists
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/270101
im all for closet breeding and playing with auxins and cytokinins and some chemicals but mutagens are just unnecessary IMO
nomofatum
Well-Known Member
Totally unprovable either way. And wow, if almost everything I say is wrong you should be able to find at least 2 or 3 quotes where I'm wrong and you can prove it? Nice toothless attack, lol.
bf80255
Well-Known Member
not attacking you my friend, just clarifying.
"I think the big breeders have been using this stuff for decades and I think many of the advancements are a result of mutation through radiation or mutagens. I would bet that some or all of your favorite strains have genes from one or more intentionally mutated descendants."
thats wrong
Use of mutagens or radiation has greatly sped up breeding results in multiple crops, it's quite reasonable that they would be very useful in cannabis as well.
im aware of this but its not the one your using and your mainly talking about polyploids, triploids and that jazz as its helped maize and a few other crops, doesnt apply to cannabis ive done the research not unless your talking about hemp specifically.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=296131
thats an article where some big breeders are doing real testing with colchicine mutagen ive been considering experimenting with for a secret project ive been working on a while now.
Lysemith, Lowkey
Well-Known Member
Guys guys... No need to throw rocks. It's impossible for someone to know everything. Thanks for broadening my thoughts on the subject of GM cannabis and whatnot.
Have either of you grown any polyploid cannabis before?
Have either of you grown any polyploid cannabis before?
Lysemith, Lowkey
Well-Known Member
I've grown a few that I suspected at the time to be tri and tetra ploid, but the nice article has confirmed my suspicions. One particular triploid I grew was effectively sterile, it would very rarely produce seeds and when it did they were those hollow white 'ghost' seeds. I never got any seed from that plant to germinate.
nomofatum
Well-Known Member
No I haven't. It would have to be clone only or hitting the lottery from seed right?
Lysemith, Lowkey
Well-Known Member
The ones I grew were clone only, and pretty exclusive.
nomofatum
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately I have no access to clones other than my own. I'm tempted to see if I can get some back here somehow this spring after freezing weather ends. I'm hoping I will see clones on the darkweb once winter is over.
nomofatum
Well-Known Member
Guessing this would be a fine source for colchicine?
http://www.alldaychemist.com/zycolchin.html
ADC is legit, or at least was when I last ordered (about 2 years ago.)
It's so cheap and the treatment method is so easy I might as well play with it, just have to do a couple females full of good seeds first.
Using the same gout pills as folks from the 70's doesn't feel very advanced however.
http://www.alldaychemist.com/zycolchin.html
ADC is legit, or at least was when I last ordered (about 2 years ago.)
It's so cheap and the treatment method is so easy I might as well play with it, just have to do a couple females full of good seeds first.
Using the same gout pills as folks from the 70's doesn't feel very advanced however.
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Lysemith, Lowkey
Well-Known Member
So just fyi you soak the seeds.
Lysemith, Lowkey
Well-Known Member
Where are you at btw? And have you considered tissue culture?