Evolution Or God?
- Thread starter degggz
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PadawanBater
Guest
Rick.. Come on man, that first part of your message is way off base and the second part of your message should show you that. How is it OK to blame atheism or the lack of religion or religious freedom for all the deaths committed by the leaders you listed, but then to do the same thing with religion, you guys get all up in arms and shout "you can't blame religion for a persons actions" -- do you not see the conflict you are presenting by making the comparison? You're saying you can blame atheism, but not religion. I'm saying neither are to blame, such acts lie with individuals, regardless of their personal beliefs.
Also, it's a valid argument the reasons such atrocities took place under people like Stalin was because they took care of anything they felt was a threat to the regime, be it religion, education, western information, or taco's. So it's not so much as "they were trying to abolish religion!" as "they were trying to abolish anything that stood in their way of accomplishing their goals".
If the government were to officially recognize any religion, or endorse any religion, that would exclude other people who do not follow that religion, I think they have a word for that... segregation. Are you advocating religous segregation in the United States?
Also, it's a valid argument the reasons such atrocities took place under people like Stalin was because they took care of anything they felt was a threat to the regime, be it religion, education, western information, or taco's. So it's not so much as "they were trying to abolish religion!" as "they were trying to abolish anything that stood in their way of accomplishing their goals".
If the government were to officially recognize any religion, or endorse any religion, that would exclude other people who do not follow that religion, I think they have a word for that... segregation. Are you advocating religous segregation in the United States?
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PadawanBater
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jeff f
New Member
no, i am not contending anything. i am saying you are totaly wrong.
i am saying its a historical fact that stalin/hitler/mao all wanted to wipe religion from their country and off face of the planet as soon as they were done conquering it. the only "religion" allowed was to the state. thats not religion, thats statism.
however you choose to look at it, more power to ya. but you are totaly wrong that these men were religious. quite the opposite.
ruderalis88
Well-Known Member
Religion has been demonized by those who use it as an excuse to do whatever they want. Atheism has been demonized in the same way. Neither is a logical belief/non-belief because there is no empirical evidence proving the existence or non existence of 'God'. The agnostic position is the only one that actually makes sense. There is no agnostic extremism. There isn't very much atheist extremism. There is a whole damn lot of religious extremism, including many more than just some followers of Islam.
When the IRA and the UDF were killing civilians left right and center during the height of the Irish troubles, they were the terrorists and they were fighting largely about religion. Ditto the Catholics killing the Cathars in the south of France. Shea Muslims fighting Suni Muslims. The European Christian original settlers in the Americas killing the natives. The Crusades. Nation vs Nation does not equate to religion vs religion - most of these were civil wars of a type.
There's a whole lot of history that shows that religion just provides another excuse to get rid of what you don't like. Usually what one group of people doesn't like is something that's different to them, this includes all forms of discrimination eg racism, homophobia, anti-disabledism, etc etc. Even the micro example of the kid that gets bullied at school cause their clothes are different, or their hair is ginger, or they're short or tall or fat or bespectacled or smart or stupid: the majority of a society looks to punish deviance from the norms of that society. Genuine tolerance is a rare thing to find. Religious intolerance is just another part of the condition from which human society suffers.
To whoever said that the British and American invasion and occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan are not about religion: the 'terror' which those nations' governments claim to fight is that of Muslim extremism, so religion plays a part.
Conflict is a part of human nature, it's not all religion's fault or atheism's or the fault of people who prefer cheese to butter. It is something which mankind has engaged in since the very beginning. Modern motives for war almost always include a warped type of political morality, and/or financial greed.
As far as creationism vs evolution goes, i'm firmly in the evolution camp. There's a lot of scientific evidence and a logical well presented theory. I could be wrong, but evolution seems far more likely to be right than creationism which is at best an overly simplistic interpretation of a particular segment of mythology. [Mythology is absolutely the correct word to use, and does not in its true sense carry anti-religious connotations]
I don't find Christianity to be a particularly believable faith. E.g. its original form, Roman Catholicism, teaches that during the transubstantiation of the host the bread/cracker/wafer actually becomes the body of Christ and the wine his blood. Not metaphorically, quite literally. As in, every time a Roman Catholic takes mass, they believe that what was formerly just a wheat based snack magically transforms into a piece of the body of a 2000 year old dead man, which they eat. Any RC who says they do not believe this is not true to his/her faith. Anyone who does believe this is, in my opinion, having a psychotic episode.
However, 'God' and evolution can be equally true. I believe evolution for the reasons stated above (among others) but that doesn't exclude all spiritual belief. Could there be a higher power of which there is no evidence? Absolutely yes. Is there one? I don't know, but if I'm ever presented with an argument for the existence, which I find indisputable then yes, I would gladly believe. Equally were I presented with an argument which categorically disproves the existence of 'God', I'd believe that. But it'd have to be some mother-sturdy type of argument because as it stands hundreds of brilliant minds have tried to prove God, and as yet each has failed.
Peace.
When the IRA and the UDF were killing civilians left right and center during the height of the Irish troubles, they were the terrorists and they were fighting largely about religion. Ditto the Catholics killing the Cathars in the south of France. Shea Muslims fighting Suni Muslims. The European Christian original settlers in the Americas killing the natives. The Crusades. Nation vs Nation does not equate to religion vs religion - most of these were civil wars of a type.
There's a whole lot of history that shows that religion just provides another excuse to get rid of what you don't like. Usually what one group of people doesn't like is something that's different to them, this includes all forms of discrimination eg racism, homophobia, anti-disabledism, etc etc. Even the micro example of the kid that gets bullied at school cause their clothes are different, or their hair is ginger, or they're short or tall or fat or bespectacled or smart or stupid: the majority of a society looks to punish deviance from the norms of that society. Genuine tolerance is a rare thing to find. Religious intolerance is just another part of the condition from which human society suffers.
To whoever said that the British and American invasion and occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan are not about religion: the 'terror' which those nations' governments claim to fight is that of Muslim extremism, so religion plays a part.
Conflict is a part of human nature, it's not all religion's fault or atheism's or the fault of people who prefer cheese to butter. It is something which mankind has engaged in since the very beginning. Modern motives for war almost always include a warped type of political morality, and/or financial greed.
As far as creationism vs evolution goes, i'm firmly in the evolution camp. There's a lot of scientific evidence and a logical well presented theory. I could be wrong, but evolution seems far more likely to be right than creationism which is at best an overly simplistic interpretation of a particular segment of mythology. [Mythology is absolutely the correct word to use, and does not in its true sense carry anti-religious connotations]
I don't find Christianity to be a particularly believable faith. E.g. its original form, Roman Catholicism, teaches that during the transubstantiation of the host the bread/cracker/wafer actually becomes the body of Christ and the wine his blood. Not metaphorically, quite literally. As in, every time a Roman Catholic takes mass, they believe that what was formerly just a wheat based snack magically transforms into a piece of the body of a 2000 year old dead man, which they eat. Any RC who says they do not believe this is not true to his/her faith. Anyone who does believe this is, in my opinion, having a psychotic episode.
However, 'God' and evolution can be equally true. I believe evolution for the reasons stated above (among others) but that doesn't exclude all spiritual belief. Could there be a higher power of which there is no evidence? Absolutely yes. Is there one? I don't know, but if I'm ever presented with an argument for the existence, which I find indisputable then yes, I would gladly believe. Equally were I presented with an argument which categorically disproves the existence of 'God', I'd believe that. But it'd have to be some mother-sturdy type of argument because as it stands hundreds of brilliant minds have tried to prove God, and as yet each has failed.
Peace.
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PadawanBater
Guest
They wanted religion dissolved in their societies because it threatened the states control. That is all. Atheism had nothing to do with it.
Hitler was Catholic, Stalin was atheist. That alone should prove to you religion, or lack there of, did not play a [major] role in the crimes they committed.
jeff f
New Member
dude, what the fuck are you talking about? you said they were religious. i informed you that you were wrong. i guess you agreed because you spit out this bullshit. none of that even makes sense. who was trying to disprove god? not me.....hey can you wait a minute i just fell off the turn up truck
ancap
Active Member
True, not all wars are started in the name of religion. However, the atheist nut jobs that started wars didn't do so in the name of atheism. Their being an atheist is 100% inconsequential to the violence they initiated. You can't say the same thing about the religious nut cases that started the crusades or the Islamic holy wars throughout history.
Truly understanding religion would be to understand that which is illogical. Before the acceptance of the scientific method and the explosion in modern science, mostly everyone was religious to some extent because it was the best guess we had at the time to explain our origins. If 95% of the people living were religious, it's not a surprise that most of the advances throughout history were from religous people. Socrates was a polytheist!
If the bible contains direct knowledge from God and insights of real truth, who are you to cherry pick which verses do and do not apply, or which verses should or should not be taken literally? I think the people who stand on the street corners are the ones that are truly living their faith couragously and honestly. I can at least respect them for that. I respect the people of the Westboro Baptist Church who say "God hates fags" far more than I respect the average run of the mill Christian.
Well, people who believe in a god or gods are certainly all delusional in this specific regard since their beliefs aren't based on reason and evidence. I've told my Christian friends this much to their face when they've asked me. Not all delusional people are dangerous or evil, and sometimes their delusions provide them some modicum of happiness, otherwise they wouldn't continue to hold their beliefs.
By the way, the bible is a terrible book on philosophy in my opinion.
ancap
Active Member
So then you are agnostic about your belief in magical flying unicorns because you cannot disprove their existence?
No they cannot. One is supported by mountains of evidence and the other is supported by the whim of delusional people.
Haul me to Heaven
New Member
evolution or god ?
Small 'e' evolution, yes.
Small 'g' god, no.
Big 'E' Evolution, no.
Big 'G' God, yes.
There is a difference.
Small 'e' evolution, yes.
Small 'g' god, no.
Big 'E' Evolution, no.
Big 'G' God, yes.
There is a difference.
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PadawanBater
Guest
Micro and Macro evolution are exactly the same, the only difference is the amount of time involved.
And there are plenty of god's, but I've never seen any evidence supporting the existence of God.
Haul me to Heaven
New Member
Small 'e' vs Capital 'E' = the difference between emergent evolution and creative evolution.
So too a small 'g' is referensed to mythical 'gods' where as refering to the 'God most high, creater of all things' is referenced with a capital 'G', God.
So too a small 'g' is referensed to mythical 'gods' where as refering to the 'God most high, creater of all things' is referenced with a capital 'G', God.
ruderalis88
Well-Known Member
dude, what the fuck are you talking about? you said they were religious. i informed you that you were wrong. i guess you agreed because you spit out this bullshit. none of that even makes sense. who was trying to disprove god? not me.....hey can you wait a minute i just fell off the turn up truck
do you think i'm someone else? that was the first post i've made in this thread and it wasn't directed at you. You haven't informed anyone of anything, you've just asserted narrow minded opinion left right and centre from what i've read so far.
It's a public forum and i've posted my opinions with regard to all the issues that've been discussed so far on this thread, and the question posed by the OP.
You don't have to agree with what i've said, and i don't expect anyone with limited mental capacity to fully understand it, but you also don't have to act like a cunt just because you disagree.
Get a grip.
ruderalis88
Well-Known Member
Fair point, flying unicorns: at present i don't believe in them. If someone brought one to me and let me examine it so that i could assume beyond reasonable doubt that it wasn't a hoax or illusion then yeah, i'm not ruling it out. Unicorns are a bit too fairytale for my liking, whereas there is a significant portion of the world who believe in god.
I'd prefer to draw a parallel between god and ghosts or extra terrestrials etc. I've never been presented with enough evidence in either direction to sway my decision. If i ever am, i'll make the decision of whether i believe in any of these or not.
I don't disagree that god is supported by the whim of delusional people rather than evidence, but there is no evidence that categorically rules out the existence or a higher power either. Yes atheism is more logical than religion, but we can't be sure can we?
I don't understand why people believe so adamantly in any particular religion or form of god, but they do. Equally, i find it hard to believe that in the entire universe we humans on earth are the only living, sentient beings. So i'm waiting til there's actually something that i can base an opinion on, more than just hearsay.
Are you familiar with the problem with inductive reasoning? People just go on believing a lot without it necessarily being true.
I'm not saying i'm right or that anyone else is completely wrong, just stating my position and thoughts on these matters. I'd be interested to see if anyone has some info/theories that change my current status.
what i'm calling god doesn't have to be the god portrayed in any religion, so evolution and god can coexist - not necessarily the omnipotent omniscient and creator of all things god, but a form of higher spiritual being is entirely possible. Not necessarily likely, not definite, but possible.
medicineman
New Member
I believe most of us could qualify as agnostic, as no literal proof exists for a God being. Some of us have had some spiritual awakening, and rather suspect there is a God. I don't adhere to the old religious bullshit that one either believes in this religion or that religion or they are going to hell. Let's look at this God being: If there were such a being (And I believe there is) wouldn't he welcome all his creations, no matter what their religious affiliation? I believe he would, Muslim, Christian or Jew and even the witch doctors brew. As far as other beings in the universe, one would have to be extremely narrow minded to believe with all the trillions of stars we can see, and more we can't, that we are the only sentient beings.
sunshine17542
Well-Known Member
God exists....
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PadawanBater
Guest
Why do you need to insert an invisible being into the equation? Why can't we attain grace through our own human interactions? Is that not enough?
