Examples of Democratic Party leadership

cannabineer said:

did you miss the part about undoing death penalties?

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no, i just am not sure that it's that important to everyone. some people would rather be dead than live in a cage for the rest of their "lives"...i'm pretty sure a life sentence would be a death sentence for me, i would provoke someone on purpose and let them kill me, if my alternative was to live the rest of my span in prison.

Roger A. Shrubber said:

no, i just am not sure that it's that important to everyone. some people would rather be dead than live in a cage for the rest of their "lives"...i'm pretty sure a life sentence would be a death sentence for me, i would provoke someone on purpose and let them kill me, if my alternative was to live the rest of my span in prison.

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I would say it isn’t the state’s place to levy a death penalty. Too many bad verdicts discovered post mortem.

cannabineer said:

another increment toward being civilized.

Oregon governor calls death penalty 'immoral,' commutes sentences for everyone on death row

Outgoing Oregon Gov. Kate Brown is commuting the sentences of all 17 people on death row to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole, according to a news release Tuesday from her office.

amp.cnn.com

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Letting the worst of the worst continue to breath. Some are continuing to kill while behind bars.

I see nothing wrong with executing someone like Christian Longo. He killed his wife and 3 children, put their bodies in suitcases and tossed them into a bay on the Oregon coast before fleeing to Mexico to party. Screw him. He gave up his right to breathe when he strangled the life out of his own children.



Christian Michael Longo (born January 23, 1974) is a convicted murderer who killed his wife and three children in Oregon.

Jesse Compton, a Springfield methamphetamine user, killed Tesslynn O'Cull, the 3-year-old daughter of his live-in girlfriend. The girl, whose body was found in a grave near Sweet Home in 1997, had been bound, shocked and sexually assaulted. Prosecutors called it the worst case of child abuse they had ever seen.

Clinton Cunningham a resident of Poteau, Okla., Cunningham raped and murdered 19-year-old Shannon Faith of Vancouver, B.C., in 1991. After stabbing her 37 times, Cunningham dumped Faith's partially clothed body along a logging road near Elkton. He picked her up hitchhiking near Coos Bay. They spent the day driving on the beach and drinking beer before he agreed to give her a ride to Eugene. Cunningham's sister testified that he once stabbed her in the back during a game of "chicken" and often tried to force her to have sex with him.


Look these people up. The worst of the worst.

The 17 people whose death sentences were commuted are:

• Jesse Compton
• Clinton Cunningham
• Randy Guzek
• Gary Haugen
• Michael Hayward
• Robert Langley Jr.
• Christian Longo
• Ernest Lotches
• Michael McDonnell
• Marco Montez
• Horacio Reyes-Camarena
• Ricardo Serrano
• Matthew Thompson
• Bruce Turnidge
• Joshua Turnidge
• Michael Washington Jr.
• Tara Zyst

xtsho said:

Letting the worst of the worst continue to breath. Some are continuing to kill while behind bars.

I see nothing wrong with executing someone like Christian Longo. He killed his wife and 3 children, put their bodies in suitcases and tossed them into a bay on the Oregon coast before fleeing to Mexico to party. Screw him. He gave up his right to breathe when he strangled the life out of his own children.

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Christian Michael Longo (born January 23, 1974) is a convicted murderer who killed his wife and three children in Oregon.

Jesse Compton, a Springfield methamphetamine user, killed Tesslynn O'Cull, the 3-year-old daughter of his live-in girlfriend. The girl, whose body was found in a grave near Sweet Home in 1997, had been bound, shocked and sexually assaulted. Prosecutors called it the worst case of child abuse they had ever seen.

Clinton Cunningham a resident of Poteau, Okla., Cunningham raped and murdered 19-year-old Shannon Faith of Vancouver, B.C., in 1991. After stabbing her 37 times, Cunningham dumped Faith's partially clothed body along a logging road near Elkton. He picked her up hitchhiking near Coos Bay. They spent the day driving on the beach and drinking beer before he agreed to give her a ride to Eugene. Cunningham's sister testified that he once stabbed her in the back during a game of "chicken" and often tried to force her to have sex with him.


Look these people up. The worst of the worst.

The 17 people whose death sentences were commuted are:

• Jesse Compton
• Clinton Cunningham
• Randy Guzek
• Gary Haugen
• Michael Hayward
• Robert Langley Jr.
• Christian Longo
• Ernest Lotches
• Michael McDonnell
• Marco Montez
• Horacio Reyes-Camarena
• Ricardo Serrano
• Matthew Thompson
• Bruce Turnidge
• Joshua Turnidge
• Michael Washington Jr.
• Tara Zyst

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I remain of the opinion that the death penalty is immoral. There are two components to my argument.

1) it is never possible to be completely sure of the guilt of a convict. Thus to make the sentence irrevocable beyond the limits of nature is hard to defend. Should it turn out that the deliberation that led to the sentence was somehow wrong, it becomes impossible to defend.

2) How we treat our prisoners speaks to our ethics as a society. Strip away the moralizing, and the motive for the death penalty is revenge. This is a dangerously attractive and often deceptive sentiment at the individual level, and entirely unmanageable in the frame of group psychology.

For these reasons I applaud the governor’s action.

cannabineer said:

I remain of the opinion that the death penalty is immoral. There are two components to my argument.

1) it is never possible to be completely sure of the guilt of a convict. Thus to make the sentence irrevocable beyond the limits of nature is hard to defend.

2) How we treat our prisoners speaks to our ethics as a society. Strip away the moralizing, and the motive for the death penalty is revenge. This is a dangerously attractive and often deceptive sentiment at the individual level, and entirely unmanageable in the frame of group psychology.

For these reasons I applaud the governor’s action.

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I have issues with how the death penalty is applied in some states and in cases where witnesses recant, or other findings occur after the conviction and imposition of penalty. Some states are just corrupt with officials falsifying evidence, lying, and other corrupt behavior in order to win and pad their resumes.

This is Oregon. The death penalty is rarely given out and only to the most vile perpetrators of heinous deeds. The 17 people who had their sentences commuted are guilty beyond doubt. This isn't Texas, Alabama, Florida, etc... No man that uses his own hands to end the life of his own three children deserves to exist in a civilized society.

Kate brown made no mention to anything other than SHE found it immoral. The voters thought otherwise when they voted to reinstate the death penalty in Oregon.

xtsho said:

I have issues with how the death penalty is applied in some states and in cases where witnesses recant, or other findings occur after the conviction and imposition of penalty. Some states are just corrupt with officials falsifying evidence, lying, and other corrupt behavior in order to win and pad their resumes.

This is Oregon. The death penalty is rarely given out and only to the most vile perpetrators of heinous deeds. The 17 people who had their sentences commuted are guilty beyond doubt. This isn't Texas, Alabama, Florida, etc... No man that uses his own hands to end the life of his own three children deserves to exist in a civilized society.

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would you accept that solitary confinement without hope of reprieve equals not existing in society?

(The fact that Oregon uses different standards than another state does not budge my opinion.)

cannabineer said:

would you accept that solitary confinement without hope of reprieve equals not existing in society?

(The fact that Oregon uses different standards than another state does not budge my opinion.)

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For someone like christian longo? Hell no. I'm not a big death penalty advocate but in some rare cases I'm as pro death penalty as you can be. Ending the lives of your own children is one of those rare cases as are the crimes of those that were on Oregon's death row.

It doesn't really matter what I or the majority of Oregonians think though as Kate Brown decided to take it upon herself to override the will of the voters on her way out the door.

xtsho said:

For someone like christian longo? Hell no. I'm not a big death penalty advocate but in some rare cases I'm as pro death penalty as you can be. Ending the lives of your own children is one of those rare cases as are the crimes of those that were on Oregon's death row.

It doesn't really matter what I or the majority of Oregonians think though as Kate Brown decided to take it upon herself to override the will of the voters on her way out the door.

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sometimes the voters are wrong. See my remark about group psychology.

cannabineer said:

would you accept that solitary confinement without hope of reprieve equals not existing in society?

(The fact that Oregon uses different standards than another state does not budge my opinion.)

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If a death penalty is on the books, Kevin Longo earned and deserves it. My opposition to the death penalty is due to the fact that wealthy people have the means to hire the best lawyers and manage and avoid it regardless of what they have done. Either all should face the death penalty for their actions or nobody should.

Fogdog said:

If a death penalty is on the books, Kevin Longo earned and deserves it. My opposition to the death penalty is due to the fact that wealthy people have the means to hire the best lawyers and manage and avoid it regardless of what they have done. Either all should face the death penalty for their actions or nobody should.

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Should the death penalty be countenanced, I’d sooner see it applied to e. g. the bankers and lobbyists who made the subprime mortgage crisis possible
than to retail-level killers.

Fogdog said:

If a death penalty is on the books, Kevin Longo earned and deserves it. My opposition to the death penalty is due to the fact that wealthy people have the means to hire the best lawyers and manage and avoid it regardless of what they have done. Either all should face the death penalty for their actions or nobody should.

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Nobody was going to be executed anyway. The last execution to take place in Oregon was the 1996 execution of serial killer douglas franklin wright who murdered at least 7 people.

It's the voters that should repeal the law not a Governor making the decision on her way out the door. If it came to a vote today I have no doubt that the death penalty would be repealed by Oregon voters since things have changed quite a bit since it was reinstated in 1984. I don't care for the way Governors and Presidents can issue pardons and commute sentences on the way out the door when they won't face any repercussions. If Kate Brown believes the death penalty to be immoral then she should have left office and worked on getting a repeal on the ballot. Maybe she will. If she doesn't then how immoral can she believe it to be?

Support for the death penalty has been declining for years and I'm positive that Oregon voters would repeal it if it was up for a vote which is where it should be decided.

cannabineer said:

I would say it isn’t the state’s place to levy a death penalty. Too many bad verdicts discovered post mortem.

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i'm not disagreeing with you...i'm saying that there are more than a few people who will not consider your "compassion" a kindness.
there are a fair percentage that would rather just be killed than have to live in a cage the rest of their so called lives.
does you being comfortable with denying them what they want make it right? or does it just make you comfortable?
how about offering them the option? seems like a win/win...if they want to spend the rest of their lives as a prisoner, they can, if not they get to check out, in a painless way, to at least assuage the guilt of the morally pure, plus you don't have to house, feed or supervise them, ever again.

Roger A. Shrubber said:

i'm not disagreeing with you...i'm saying that there are more than a few people who will not consider your "compassion" a kindness.
there are a fair percentage that would rather just be killed than have to live in a cage the rest of their so called lives.
does you being comfortable with denying them what they want make it right? or does it just make you comfortable?
how about offering them the option? seems like a win/win...if they want to spend the rest of their lives as a prisoner, they can, if not they get to check out, in a painless way, to at least assuage the guilt of the morally pure, plus you don't have to house, feed or supervise them, ever again.

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Oh, I’m not sure I consider it a kindness either. But it conforms to principles I can articulate and accept. A long imprisonment, particularly solitary, is no kindness. I can tiptoe past the obvious fuck-you motive by invoking deterrence.

cannabineer said:

would you accept that solitary confinement without hope of reprieve equals not existing in society?

(The fact that Oregon uses different standards than another state does not budge my opinion.)

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you're a crueler man than i, although you glare down at me like a judge...
primates are social animals. deprive them of the company of others of their kind, and they wither and die.
they withdraw, grow sullen, them despondent...then die, sad and alone, miserable...
solitary confinement without reprieve is a death sentence, with a course of psychological torture that makes death a release.

Roger A. Shrubber said:

you're a crueler man than i, although you glare down at me like a judge...
primates are social animals. deprive them of the company of others of their kind, and they wither and die.
they withdraw, grow sullen, them despondent...then die, sad and alone, miserable...
solitary confinement without reprieve is a death sentence, with a course of psychological torture that makes death a release.

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The one redeeming element is that it is reversible. (polishes halo)

(add) I admitted a while ago that a life sentence often is crueler than death. In fact, iirc I shamelessly promoted it as a bonus.

xtsho said:

Nobody was going to be executed anyway. The last execution to take place in Oregon was the 1996 execution of serial killer douglas franklin wright who murdered at least 7 people.

It's the voters that should repeal the law not a Governor making the decision on her way out the door. If it came to a vote today I have no doubt that the death penalty would be repealed by Oregon voters since things have changed quite a bit since it was reinstated in 1984. I don't care for the way Governors and Presidents can issue pardons and commute sentences on the way out the door when they won't face any repercussions. If Kate Brown believes the death penalty to be immoral then she should have left office and worked on getting a repeal on the ballot. Maybe she will. If she doesn't then how immoral can she believe it to be?

Support for the death penalty has been declining for years and I'm positive that Oregon voters would repeal it if it was up for a vote which is where it should be decided.



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Kate Brown has the constitutional right to commute sentences and that is what she did. I think she did the right thing and have said why. The justice system is skewed to favor people with the means to hire the best lawyers. To apply the ultimate punishment in such a system is wrong, plain and simple.

Saying Kate Brown should not have given clemency and worked to change the law is a failure in logic. She has the right under the constitution to commute sentences of those facing the death penalty. She's not changing the laws, she's following them.

Fogdog said:

Kate Brown has the constitutional right to commute sentences and that is what she did. I think she did the right thing and have said why. The justice system is skewed to favor people with the means to hire the best lawyers. To apply the ultimate punishment in such a system is wrong, plain and simple.

Saying Kate Brown should not have given clemency and worked to change the law is a failure in logic. She has the right under the constitution to commute sentences of those facing the death penalty. She's not changing the laws, she's following them.

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Who's logic? Yours as always?

None of the 17 people that were sentenced to death are there because of the system. They were tried and convicted in a court of law with indisputable evidence. They were sentenced to death because they're crimes were so heinous that they forfeited their right to exist.

Yes a governor and a President can commute sentences and grant pardons on the way out the door. I don't disagree that they shouldn't have that discretion but the mass dumps a couple weeks or a few day before leaving are pretty rotten. It's like trump pardoning all those maga clowns on his way out the door which I'm sure you didn't like.

Man who strangled his three children with his bare hands deserves a commutation but a man whose crime was lying to the FBI shouldn't have his sentence commuted. That's your logic. My logic is both should serve the sentence they were given.

xtsho said:

Who's logic? Yours as always?

None of the 17 people that were sentenced to death are there because of the system. They were tried and convicted in a court of law with indisputable evidence. They were sentenced to death because they're crimes were so heinous that they forfeited their right to exist.

Yes a governor and a President can commute sentences and grant pardons on the way out the door. I don't disagree that they shouldn't have that discretion but the mass dumps a couple weeks or a few day before leaving are pretty rotten. It's like trump pardoning all those maga clowns on his way out the door which I'm sure you didn't like.

Man who strangled his three children with his bare hands deserves a commutation but a man whose crime was lying to the FBI shouldn't have his sentence commuted. That's your logic. My logic is both should serve the sentence they were given.

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To avoid stringing out another dumbass back and forth discussion that goes nowhere, I'll give one last reply on this topic and you can have the last word.

We are talking about the death penalty, not imprisonment. It's the ultimate punishment. The death penalty is only served upon people who can't afford a good lawyer. I can't support state-sanctioned homicide if it's not applied equally. This is my belief and your argument fails to convince me otherwise.

Your circular logic fails. You are saying that you believe Elizabeth Brown should not have followed her beliefs as allowed under the state constitution because other people believe otherwise. It's also a bandwagon fallacy. Just because a lot of people feel differently than Brown, does not mean Brown was wrong to legally follow her belief.

Your other logic fail is when you said that because I didn't like it when Trump pardoned people like Bannon, Flynn and Manafort, it was wrong of Brown to pardon people on death row. Trump pardoned many others at the same time and I grit my teeth but offer no complaint. Most of those he pardoned during his last 12 hours in power were not potential witnesses against him and posed no threat to our democracy. The three I named were potential witnesses to crimes he committed while in office. They are his partners in his threat to overthrow our democracy and they still pose a threat. Trump had the right to pardon those men but his act was corrupt, nonetheless. This is very different from what Brown did. Your logical fallacy is called false equivalence.

You might benefit from going over this list of logical fallacies. Maybe it will help you going forward.

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