Experienced Electrician! Here to Answer Any and All Growroom Electrical Questions

IAm5toned said:

run seperate wires for both the neutral, and the ground, and you will be fine.

usually you only have to have a ground rod when it is a seperate structure like a shed or unattached garage

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I was planning on using 2/2/2/4 Aluminum with only 75 amps running through with the neutral bar to neutral bar(obviously) and ground bar to ground bar.

I'd show pics but I just switched comps and no longer have a card reader built in so I have to pick one up first.

Everything sounds straight though, correct?

wyteboi said:

So if i had 25 amps running through the neutral then i got it down to 3, then was i actually wasting 22 amps? (or if this is way too complicated for me then dont worry about it)
main question is , where is the "waste"?
Thanks as always 5toned!


wb

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it has to do with the way a/c works. even after the electricity has passed through your device and done its 'job' additional volt-amps are used up by the current running down the neutral and dissapating into earth.

when you have a balanced load, the volt/amps travel across phases and help power other devices on the opposite phase.

ill give a simple but somewhat complicated explanation...

at peak voltage on a 120/240 service, you have 177 volts positive on phase one, and 177 volts negative polarity on phase 2...

now lets pretend there are to devices on that service, one on phase 1, one on phase 2. both devices pull 10 amps, balanced load... when the device one phase 1 uses 10 amps of positive current, the device on phase 2 uses 10 amps of negative current. ( b4 i go further, think of a train, constantly going one distance in one direction, then reversing and traveling the same distance backwards, repeating the cycle endlessly, that is alternating current... the cars of the train would be individual electrons) now because you have 2 phases at opposite polarity, the energy that would normally be used to carry the load down the neutral, to the panel, outside your house to the power companies pole, will instead do something rather remarkable, at the panel, where the load would normally go outside, instead travels back up the neutral and is used tpo power devices on the opposite phase.... if you had one device on phase 1 that pulled 12 amps, and a device on phase 2 that pulled 10 amps, then you would have 2 amps of unbalanced current running down the neutral.... make sense?

Breakdown of my subpanel that I purchased:

1 Neutral- White Wire
1 Ground- Bare wire
2 Hot wires- 1 red, 1 black

I can run both 120 circuits as well as 240, correct? That's the whole purpose behind the alternating posts for the breakers if I understand it.

Please help me as I am very concerned with safety here but inviting an inspector in to look at this really isn't too much of an option.

Thanks in advance.

myxedup said:

Breakdown of my subpanel that I purchased:

1 Neutral- White Wire
1 Ground- Bare wire
2 Hot wires- 1 red, 1 black

I can run both 120 circuits as well as 240, correct? That's the whole purpose behind the alternating posts for the breakers if I understand it.

Please help me as I am very concerned with safety here but inviting an inspector in to look at this really isn't too much of an option.

Thanks in advance.

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yes, you got the right one from the sound of it

myxedup said:

I was planning on using 2/2/2/4 Aluminum with only 75 amps running through with the neutral bar to neutral bar(obviously) and ground bar to ground bar.

I'd show pics but I just switched comps and no longer have a card reader built in so I have to pick one up first.

Everything sounds straight though, correct?

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sounds like you have a good grasp of whats going on.

jusr dont forget the NoALox

The NoAlox only needs to be used on the main feeds or should I be using it on all aluminum connections including neutral bus and ground?

Also, if i understand it correctly, for main panels, you use a bonding screw on the neutral bus to attach it to the box which is grounded. However, on a subpanel, you need to leave that bonding screw out, correct?

In order to free up room in my main panel, I need to pull off 2 20 amp single poles and then run those into the subpanel. In order to do this with the panel flush mounted, I need to splice those 2 (12/2 romex) in order to reach the box where I want it, mainly above my predetermined water line. That's not really an issue as it's really simple to do. I'm curious though, can I still put fiberglass insulation down under my main panel where the wire is running, or should I just let there be a thermal leak?

Thanks for all the help here though. I do a ton of research on stuff before I typically begin a project but I would really hate to overlook something simple and end up paying dire consequences.

myxedup said:

The NoAlox only needs to be used on the main feeds or should I be using it on all aluminum connections including neutral bus and ground?

Also, if i understand it correctly, for main panels, you use a bonding screw on the neutral bus to attach it to the box which is grounded. However, on a subpanel, you need to leave that bonding screw out, correct?

In order to free up room in my main panel, I need to pull off 2 20 amp single poles and then run those into the subpanel. In order to do this with the panel flush mounted, I need to splice those 2 (12/2 romex) in order to reach the box where I want it, mainly above my predetermined water line. That's not really an issue as it's really simple to do. I'm curious though, can I still put fiberglass insulation down under my main panel where the wire is running, or should I just let there be a thermal leak?

Thanks for all the help here though. I do a ton of research on stuff before I typically begin a project but I would really hate to overlook something simple and end up paying dire consequences.

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looks like you have done some homework, and it shows!

use noalox on all aluminum terminations, even wirenuts.

Never bond a subpanel. the only electrical panel in any building, regardless of size, that is bonded, is the main panel. Larger transformers also require bonding but thats kinda irrelevant here. so definitly leave the screw out.

dont be shy using insulation nder the panel. no need for an expensive thermal leak. however dont pack it in too tightly, it is better that the insulation is loose than tight as a general rule of thumb, so cut it to fit if you need to. a thing to keep in mind- brekaers get warm, its what they do, so again, avoid overinsulating around the electrical panel... it will save you money in the long run and spare you aggravation if you use less insulaiton than more, because in a decade or so if you go nuts with the pink shit, because in warmer climates your breakers will start failing due to high ambient temps in the summer...(heat wont dissapate fast enough)

but it seems liek you have a good grasp on things

Hello all,
This is my first post here. I have been reading the threads for several weeks and finally decided to register a few days ago.
For the most part, I will always search first for what I want to know but I thought in this case I should ask a couple of questions regarding my planned electrical system.
I am going to supply power to a cab that I will start to build tomorrow. I want to make it plug and play so that the system can be easily moved. I would like to get a 14ga cord to enter the box from a receptacle. It is on a 20 amp circuit that is only supplying about 400 watts as of now to various items. When the cord enters the box I will install 2 -2x4 boxes with 15A GFCI receptacles and 14/3 Romex going from the first to the second 2x4 box. I will plug in a 15 A/1720w surge protector/timer with 4 timed and 4 constant. I will use the timer to power up my lights and one of the exhaust fans ( 108 cfm computer fan with ac/dc adapter ). On the constant side I will have 2 more exhaust fans like the first and 2 intake fans ( 80mm 34 cfm) off of one 5 channel controller. I will also run a small circulation fan off of the constant side. So far that is no more than 400 watts but at some time in the future I may add some pumps to go Hydro and upgrade my lighting to about 600 watts total. I intend to run all wiring that will not be moved in Panduit. So here is what I figure so far;
600 watts max for lights
50 watts max for other items such as fans and pumps ( if I am not mistaken)
This should leave me with plenty of plug ins for any other small things I need to run.
Ok.....that's it in a nutshell.
So can some one tell me, Is this a safe way to go? I will do whatever is necessary to make this thing as safe as I can and also stealthy.
I would sure appreciate some opinions and advice if possible before I start.
Thanks in advance

cbreeze said:

220/240 ground - neutral question

I'm intending to run digital 1000w & 600w ballasts from a 3-wire 240volt dryer circuit. 2 hot wires & 1 neutral. I was going to put 240v connector on end of a dryer cord so that I could just plug my 240v timer into that. The dryer cord has "2 hots & 1 neutral", the connector has "2 hots & 1 ground". so...

safe to use the 'neutral' wire as the 'ground' wire? safe for all the time use?

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so is this safe? or should I run an extra ground?

thanks!

IAm5toned said:

there is no code that says you cannot do this.
there is a code that says the wire you add has to be rated for the same amperage as the wire your tying into.... so if the 30amp circuit has #10, then you must use #10 on the new wire.

there is no limit to how many branch circuits/outlets you can have on a circuit.
as a matter of fact, when dealing with electricity the 5 major limiting factors are (in no particular orer) rated amperage, ambient temp, distance, required overcurrent protection and required voltage. stay within those catagories and you almost cant go wrong. on paper, you could pull 10,000 amps on one circuit, and put 100,000 20 amp outlets on the same circuit, and that circuit could even be 25 miles long... but only if the right sized wire and breakers were used. years ago when dinosaurs roamed the earth and electricians still made more money than mexican drywallers, when i was in school, one of my instructors' fav tricks to keep the class occupied for time leftover after each lesson was to ask the damndest questions and have the class look up the answers. one of those questions was how many outlets can you have on one circuit?
answer? limitless. there is no code that specifies a given number of outlets.

just because i just said that however doesnt make you a junior electrician.

electricity is a strange and funny beast, it can be lethally complicated, deceptively simple,has neverending possiblilties and behaves by its own, unique set of rules, which take many years to understand, and many more to master.

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Thanks. I ended up running two double pole 15's to avoid branching so each set of lights will be on their own breakers. It was a cleaner install. Appreciate your input.

EvlMunkee said:

Hello all,
This is my first post here. I have been reading the threads for several weeks and finally decided to register a few days ago.
For the most part, I will always search first for what I want to know but I thought in this case I should ask a couple of questions regarding my planned electrical system.
I am going to supply power to a cab that I will start to build tomorrow. I want to make it plug and play so that the system can be easily moved. I would like to get a 14ga cord to enter the box from a receptacle. It is on a 20 amp circuit that is only supplying about 400 watts as of now to various items. When the cord enters the box I will install 2 -2x4 boxes with 15A GFCI receptacles and 14/3 Romex going from the first to the second 2x4 box. I will plug in a 15 A/1720w surge protector/timer with 4 timed and 4 constant. I will use the timer to power up my lights and one of the exhaust fans ( 108 cfm computer fan with ac/dc adapter ). On the constant side I will have 2 more exhaust fans like the first and 2 intake fans ( 80mm 34 cfm) off of one 5 channel controller. I will also run a small circulation fan off of the constant side. So far that is no more than 400 watts but at some time in the future I may add some pumps to go Hydro and upgrade my lighting to about 600 watts total. I intend to run all wiring that will not be moved in Panduit. So here is what I figure so far;
600 watts max for lights
50 watts max for other items such as fans and pumps ( if I am not mistaken)
This should leave me with plenty of plug ins for any other small things I need to run.
Ok.....that's it in a nutshell.
So can some one tell me, Is this a safe way to go? I will do whatever is necessary to make this thing as safe as I can and also stealthy.
I would sure appreciate some opinions and advice if possible before I start.
Thanks in advance

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the only thing wrong with it is you should be using #12 where i highlighted in red.
#14 would work in a pinch, but if you ever decide to expand the op it will give you lots of problems, especially if you u/g yourlight to a 1000w down the road. using #12 now will save you aggravation later.
and its against code to run #14 on a 20 amp breaker too

cbreeze said:

so is this safe? or should I run an extra ground?

thanks!

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never use a neutral as a ground. never.
now that i said that i will refer you to this:

You could utilize the exception to grounding which is allowed in the NEC for existing circuits which lets you reconnect the chassis ground to the neutral (ground) third conductor and change the cord set to a three prong cord - check to make sure your township has not superceded these allowances - the "authority having jurisdiction

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what he says is that you must connect the neutral and the ground wires together inside the light fixture box, THEN change the cord to a 3 wire 240v cord... then you can safely plug it in...

(LIFE SAFETY WARNING! [Disclaimer]
Electricity is dangerous!
You can be injured or killed!
Improper installations can cause fire, injury and death!
Should you be doing this yourself.....

Hello electrical guru's,


I have a novice question. I need to add an outlet and I was wandering if I can tap into the pullstring light in my basement to do it?

The only other things on the circuit is my bathroom plug and light, and they never get used. Literally never use the plug, and once in awhile Ill turn on the light (60w)



Anyways,
Its a 20 amp circuit, and Ill be running a 400w light in my room, and about another 300w of other crap in my cab. Maybe 800w total, but on a 110 thats only 7.5ish amps so I should be good right?

Anything I need to be aware of other then match the colors and put good nuts on every connection?

Basically, I understand this is easy but my op wont be running for awhile yet and once it is opening up the drwall will be a pain in my ass so I wanna make sure I have it right the first time..


Thanx in advance, from one old hippie

IAm5toned said:

there is no code that says you cannot do this.
there is a code that says the wire you add has to be rated for the same amperage as the wire your tying into.... so if the 30amp circuit has #10, then you must use #10 on the new wire.

there is no limit to how many branch circuits/outlets you can have on a circuit. how many outlets can you have on one circuit?
answer? limitless. there is no code that specifies a given number of outlets.
.

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WTF iam5stoned? Your answers are far from correct or not correct for the united states. Look up the code on the 10' tap rule and also the load for a receptacle is 180va unless it is larger or a single special purpose rec. You keep saying that it's ok by code but it's not. What code book are you going by?????

Hi
I am running a 400 digital light and have had no problems in the first six weeks. Now it keeps going off, so I tried another ballast but it is still going off. Please can you advise. Thanks.

BehindYou said:

WTF iam5stoned? Your answers are far from correct or not correct for the united states. Look up the code on the 10' tap rule and also the load for a receptacle is 180va unless it is larger or a single special purpose rec. You keep saying that it's ok by code but it's not. What code book are you going by?????

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the code for a receptacle is 180 va huh...
maybe if your estimating for a service drop..... not for definite purpose equipment.
which is exactly what a damn grow op is.....

please dont lecture me on the codebook.

ps/edit:
and far as code goes, isnt a 30 amp 240v receptacle larger than a standard 120v 15amp outlet which the 180v/a is based on?
which is why you you have to do the kitchen and small appliance outlets seperately on the damn load calculation....
your kind of contradicting yourself here.

Bypass the timer, does it go off?
Did u change to 12/12 when u were high? Lol
change the lamp, most ballast have an overload device that will turn the ballast off if the load is to much. Old lights draw more current.

Iam5toned,
people are asking for advice, if your going to be telling them it's ok to do by code and it is not your not helping.
The code allows for diversity in the calculation of load in the kitchen and for plugmold. Your lack of the understanding of the electrical code means you bought a box of wirenuts once and put in a dimmer. Yes your an electrician but you don't have a building code book.
The code is easy to use if you can read.

Thanks. I will try a new bulb in the morning. It must be about two years old!

i would have you know i am a nicet level 3 technician, an est3 certified technician, and have probably forgotten enough to fill an ugly's book or 2.
right now i do inspection walkthroughs for high profile clients in the mid south, i deal with inspectors on a daily level on projects where significant amounts of capital are at stake, so please, again, im asking you nicely to not lecture me on codes.
i did a 5 year journeyman apprenticeship under some of the most strict and demanding electricians in the trade. that was 15 years ago, and where i live has some of the strictest building codes in the u.s, comparable to LA or NYC.
take your residential demand factors and stick to wiring houses.... i was running rigid when you were still playing with g.i. joes.
please dont try and insult me for helping people out.
no one has to take my advice, and if this is the type of flack i get for helping people out i guess i will just unsub this thread and YOU can deal with all the noobs.

have fun.