FR question

md2of2Member
In my wonderings I came across this.

"You are right about PS1 and PS2 but u forgot to mention as why the red drop actually occurs.. well i think that red light is of high wavelength (647- 700 nm ), and blue light has a frequency of (422- 492 nm).. therefore when we incident red light on a plant its PS1 gets activated (as it is activated by wavelengths of 700 nm ) and thus giving rise to cyclic photo phosphorylation on the other hand if we give the plant a light of alternate frequencies at the same time( red and blue light alternatively ) then the plant receives a wavelength of 680 nm (approx) thus activating both PS1 and PS2 and thus leading to non-cyclic photo phosphorylation...thus a better photosynthesis"

So could we say that plants are more efficient at absorbing the 680nm wavelength with the addition of blue light than without it? Any idea of what amount or ratio of blue light is required to activate the PS2 systems. Also where does the far red spectrum fit in as I thought this was the focus in the EEE, that it was the need for the far red to trigger the PS2. Also someone here mentioned pulsing FR and R on lettuce seeds to stop or allow them to germinate. I'm really trying to understand the whole FR thing.

FR will inhibit lettuce seeds from germinating and R light will promote germination.

FR light alone will cause almost all Pfr to become Pr because Pfr absorbs at 730nm while Pr does not.

If you make a sequence of pulses of R, FR, R, FR, only the last pulse in the sequence will matter. If the sequence ends with R, the seeds will germinate, and if the sequence ends with FR, most of the seeds will not germinate.

What I've read on the Emmerson Enhancement Effect only deals with R and FR wavelengths. Emmerson used a prism to separate the wavelengths and a water filter to alleviate IR. He stated that the sum of the wavelengths was greater than the parts therefore there must be two systems for photosynthesis, PS1 and PS2. So without any blue spectrum he was able to activate both systems, which according to the above can be achieved at a 680 nm. I guess my question is why use any blue light. If the above is correct both systems activate at 680 nm, Emmerson states both systems activate with only R and FR. Also, my question on the lettuce thing had more to do with inducing flowering. I can't find the post but someone had mentioned hitting their plants with FR for 8 minutes after lights out, I believed it alleviated the flip period and helped with stretch, I think. Thanks, man there is a wealth of info in RIU, It's hard to remember where I've been.

A lot of us actually do use pulses of FR for a few minutes (or seconds) after lights out, and I think the people who use it all swear by it now.

It speeds up the onset of flowering, and causes the plants to stretch like crazy for about 2 weeks, then it immediately stops stretching and puts on flowers fast. Other people that use 730nm at lights out claim it takes off about 1-2 weeks off flowering time depending on how long it was to begin with.

churchhaze said:

A lot of us actually do use pulses of FR for a few minutes (or seconds) after lights out, and I think the people who use it all swear by it now.

It speeds up the onset of flowering, and causes the plants to stretch like crazy for about 2 weeks, then it immediately stops stretching and puts on flowers fast. Other people that use 730nm at lights out claim it takes off about 1-2 weeks off flowering time depending on how long it was to begin with.

Click to expand...

I had a plant that stretched from 12 inch to ~36 inch within the 2 week time-frame of introducing infrared (LED stars), so I'd say using infrared can be magical.

@chuchhaze
What may I ask is a recommended time between pulses, are we talking strobe light or slower? Do you do this through those few weeks or through all of flowering?

@AquariusPanta
When you say IR are you talking 800nm? May I ask what your particular strategy for using IR is?

I've decided I'll be running Vero 18's, that's all I've decided. Is it possible to run a fan/heat sink like the arctic 11 and a Vero 18 off of one power source? I am extremely uninformed when it comes to this kind of stuff so please excuse the dumb questions.

Thanks to both of you I've read many of you posts and learned a great deal, retention on the other hand can be spotty at best.

[edit] What kind of watts per sqft are you guys shooting for with the FR and IR.

md2of2 said:

@chuchhaze
What may I ask is a recommended time between pulses, are we talking strobe light or slower? Do you do this through those few weeks or through all of flowering?

@AquariusPanta
When you say IR are you talking 800nm? May I ask what your particular strategy for using IR is?

I've decided I'll be running Vero 18's, that's all I've decided. Is it possible to run a fan/heat sink like the arctic 11 and a Vero 18 off of one power source? I am extremely uninformed when it comes to this kind of stuff so please excuse the dumb questions.

Thanks to both of you I've read many of you posts and learned a great deal, retention on the other hand can be spotty at best.

[edit] What kind of watts per sqft are you guys shooting for with the FR and IR.

Click to expand...

I use 730nm IR. It's supposedly most effective for a plant at 730nm.

When I implemented the IR LED stars in my last grow, I wanted to see if they would actually do as others had observed and reported. It turns out the theory holds merit, as my story demonstrates. As far as a strategy, the IR acts as a night-time booster for the plant(s); the IR does some scientific shit with the pFR and pR particles in the plant-leaf matter and it basically adds ~2 hours of night hours to the plant(s) if used for ~5 minutes after light-out.

Do you see where this is going or would you like me to continue explaining the concept of IR? Atleast guess for me .

No I get the concept, thanks. As far as wattage of IR per ft, I was thinking of using 8x3W IR over a 2x2 area, does that sound sufficient. I suppose you start the IR at the beginning of 12/12 cycle, due you run it throught the 12/12 cycle or just the few weeks they go through stretch. Can you recommend a driver that would support 8x3w LED stars? Thanks a bunch.

md2of2 said:

No I get the concept, thanks. As far as wattage of IR per ft, I was thinking of using 8x3W IR over a 2x2 area, does that sound sufficient. I suppose you start the IR at the beginning of 12/12 cycle, due you run it throught the 12/12 cycle or just the few weeks they go through stretch. Can you recommend a driver that would support 8x3w LED stars? Thanks a bunch.

Click to expand...

Ok (to finish where I left off), the addition of FR during flowering not only signals to the plant(s) that it's budding time but also allows for an additional 2x hours of light for the plants. This means that if you ran your light fixtures, including IR, that you could get away with 14/10 (at most) and avoid any issues. I ran 13.5/10.5 during my last grow and it told the plant that there were 26x hours per days, due to the extra 2x hours IR provides. Now this science can be better understood through various, credible sources (none of which I have for disposal atm) but in short it works if executed properly.

I used the IR all the way up until the last week of flowering.

You would only need 1x-2x stars for a 2'x2' area and you can get the IR stars and driver for star(s) from stevesleds.com.

Ok, now I got it. I believed it skipped the transition period from awake to asleep, kinda like how it takes us a while to enter REM sleep. I totally got it now, more light per given period, more photosynthesis, more buds. Man that is some heavy shit, secrets of the masters. I would love to read some of the science if you ever run across it. I'm working on my light design, when finished I'll do a journal. Thank you.

Can anybody point me in the direction of Supras data sheets on the Vero line.
I can't seem to find them.

[edit] I found them

Hey guys !
very interesting stuff here !
I'm building right now my next set up, composed of 4 vero18@1.4A + 4 epileds 730nm@700ma on 4 artic 11+ in a 60*60*140cm box
I get the thing about the Pfr to Pr conversion, which accelerates the transition from awake to asleep and will also make stretch the ladies during the night ...

and I wondering about the use of Ir during the day, with a combination ... or not of 660nm
so this topic seems to be the right one for my question ...

so what do you think of the use of 730nm during the day ?
this wave lenght seems to be absorbed by mj and participate to O2 production
and also will make the auxines go up, seems good for budz
basically, it seems to act like an hps

so, assuming that I haven't made a mistake, I have troubles to understand the use of 660nm in most commercial panels
the 660 seems to work in the opposite way of the 730, converts Pr to Pfr, inhibit stretching during thr night, makes the auxines go to the roots (seems good for cloning)
doesn't seem right to me, to run 660 and 730 at the same time, still I have 6*660nm and I'm wondering what to do with these ...

excuse me for my poor english level and also bullshit I may say, all this biology stuff is quiet new for me, I get mixed up very easily

Well maybe I can help. At 680 nm both photosynthetic systems (PS1 and PS2) are activated leading to non-cyclic photo phosphorylation. This is a better form of photosynthesis. You can achieve this by mixing wavelengths or going the easy route and using single wavelength diodes, my opinion. If you read AP's post's a little closer you'll understand. IR for 5 min after lights out. Really read his post's carefully AP spells it all out. Also google the Emmerson Enhancement Effect. It's good shit.

This is fascinating. But from what I understand the FR and R is supposed to work at the same time to get the synergistic effect? Or is it just in combination? What are you basing your method of using FR alone at the end of "day" on, AP? Is it theory, experience or both.

I just built a lamp and I would be very interested in implementing a few FR leds!

8/10 said:

This is fascinating. But from what I understand the FR and R is supposed to work at the same time to get the synergistic effect? Or is it just in combination? What are you basing your method of using FR alone at the end of "day" on, AP? Is it theory, experience or both.

I just built a lamp and I would be very interested in implementing a few FR leds!

Click to expand...

It's both, mainly experience though.

Others have tried introducing FR throughout the daytime but others have pointed out that it comes with ill-effects.

I encourage everyone to try out their own theories and experience the excitement themselves.

AP is using IR not FR. IR is around 800nm but since wavelength is a function of temperature a very wide range is possible 750-800nm. AP's 760 nm is just cresting the the IR spectrum. Read above and we discuss the EEE which focuses on the PS systems, using only two wavelengths, R and FR.

Emerson effect is something entirely different involing PS1 and PS2. We all play PS4 now. Those old PS are obsolete.

Pfr and Pr are a totally different, independent, system to the playstations. Think of them more like the cones in your eyes. They are the plants color vision.

Also, the reason you'd want both 660nm and 730nm at the same time is because chloraphyl acts like a theatrical filter. It absorbs 660nm and passes 730nm, so lower branches will only get the 730nm. This in effect causes a shade avoidance calibration.

730nm isn't the only wavelength that will cause shade avoidance though. Each wavelength by itself will cause %Pfr (percent of total phytochromes in Pfr state) to converge at a different level, and chlorophyll filters red and blue more than yellow and cyan. Yellow + red wavelengths together also calibrate shade avoidance because red gets absorbed at the top, and yellow makes it to the bottom, causing the bottom to have lower %Pfr than the top. and thus to stretch..

tl;dr: phytochrome is the plant's 3d color vision system that causes lower branches to stretch until they reach canopy level. (causing a tree shape).

No one that i've seen has put up the perfect balance of 730nm and 660nm. Its been explained in other threads but not shown in a actual side by side grow.

What has been shown..

High yields using just warm whites

Flower time reduction with short 730nm exposure at lights out

Massive unwanted stretch with high 730nm levels during lights on. The upper canopy is going to thinks its in the shade...lol..

the only time i see adding 730nm to the light cycle would be in abscence of the lights out 730nm exposure. I suppose you could take both approaches but it would be a bit overkill. For example...most commercial red/blue type leds now input a small amount of far red into their lights to reduce their flowering times. The earlier versions without had lonnng flower times and weeks before flowers would begin to set.

So now that warm white are being used their is already a good 660nm/730nm balance in its spectrum. It will flower normally and in good time. The seperate 730nm exposure at the end speeds up flowering further with the included stretch from the plants perceived extra hours of night.

All of the above is strictly my opinion.

A good experiment to try may be a minimum amount of additional 730nm during lights on without the end of cycle flash. It may speed up flowering similarly without getting too much stretch.

Kinda easier to just givem a flash at the end...like a sunset at the end of the day..

Hey I found that lettuce seed thing.


Table 1: Germination of Grand Rapids Lettuce Seeds after brief exposures to red or far-red light
Treatment
Percent Germination
none
8.5
red
98
red, far red
54
r, fr, r
100
r, fr, r, fr
43
r, fr, r, fr, r
99
r, fr, r, fr, r, fr
54
r, fr, r, fr, r, fr, r
98

Red...