genetics & breeding q:

kmog33 said:
In reality maybe you don't use stable Ibls and i do that's the difference i suppose. When i cross my strains i have stabilized i get at max 3 phenos and ive been breeding for almost 10 years and have never had discrepancy except with unstable genetics.
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And I can piss a mile far! :hump:

Man so defensive over a few punnett results... which aren't influence by a number of years experience. Why is this suddenly about me and you? Ah... ad hominem... You respond like a defoliator who ran out of arguments but here's the kicker: I'm not disagreeing with the results you're getting, on the contrary:

Sativied said:
F1 a good example stable enough to grow (although environmental influences can tip the balance for some genes and express differently and still get different phenos for all practical purposes) but not at all stable as in true bred (i.e. the example cross above is completely heterozygous, but still all same phenotype).
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So yes, a (true) F1 (of stable ibl parents) should have very little variety like the 3 phenos you're seeing.

Sativied said:
In reality we usually don't use perfectly stable IBLs.
Click to expand...

Sativied said:
Theoretic example of course...
Click to expand...

:peace:

racerboy71 said:
ty kindly good sir.. :D
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You must have me confused with someone else :lol: Seriously though, that's an easy answer for me personally: none. But for you, it depends on what your goal is with the breeding project. I wouldn't look for something stable to start with because that means it's either one of the same old IBLs or something newer but not less popular, so used a lot already. Reminds me of a post almost a year ago, I initially wanted to use NL#5xHaze:

Sativied said:
I'm excited about the NL#5 x Haze. I worked in a coffeeshop for about 18 months when I was 18 years old. The menu was Orange Bud, (Super) Skunk, Shiva, Northern Light, Hindu Kush, Haze and mostly Moroccan hash. No WW or Jack Herrer on the menu yet. No haze hybrids. Northern Light was too common for me to really appreciate and haze just didn't taste or look good back then. But while reading up on the history of those strains I noticed the obvious... nearly everything I smoked is still a mix of what I used to smoke as a kid (matter of speaking, well, not entirely :eyesmoke: ).

Even the popular SSH is an indirect result of selection out of 1000 NL#5xHaze plants (and hence so is the amnesia haze clone-only type one can find in many coffeeshops here, which is actually a SSH pheno and not Soma's AH). Just like the Mango Haze, Neville's Haze, and indirectly also Sannie's Sugar Punch with its popular SSH pheno. Same NL#5 and Haze are also involved in Jack Herrer. One of the reasons NL#5xHaze is often used for breeding purposes because it's easier than to start with the fluffier Original Haze with its 12-16 weeks flowering time, apart from getting the NL traits of course. Doesn't mean it's all bad or anything, some have made some decent and special strains with it, but it's all based on the same ol' gene pool. Homegrown tastes better than anything I bought, homemade soup tastes better than most commercial soup too, mixing your own fruit juice usually tastes better than something pre-mixed from a bottle right? Will homebred be any different? Let's find out.

So, going back to basics in one closet, and growing exotic sativas in a second closet. Needless to say I'll be making some crosses along the way.
Click to expand...

Later I decided to take a different route and exclude those same old IBLs and derivatives I referred to in that post. So I got Cannalope Haze for a male. Quite ironic because it turns out Cannalope Haze is supposedly C99.. (long drama story don't ask, don't know what's true and what not) which contains those same old genetics again :lol: Anyway, I'm quite happy with the results so far (the F1s that aren't true F1s :) ).

Unstable has a bad ring but it usually also means more variation, which is what you, well, I anyway, want in my initial breeding stock.
So I would just look for strains that have certain traits you want to try and breed true or breed into another strain. Once you start crossing stable beyond F1 it becomes unstable so where in the line you begin doesn't matter that much (unless you want to cross someone else's IBLs and call yourself a breeder, or king of cannabis ;))

Anyway, what the fuck do I know, I have no "breeding" experience. :bigjoint: I'm still working on producing that initial breeding stock (which in my case is F2), right now I just got thousands of F1s of 4 different strains which all have something great, and all lack something. I'm currently testing the crosses (ready for actually testing the product in a month+) to determine which of the cross I'm going to work on first (which will be Chunk x Cannalope Haze, which I call P as an F1 cross deserves no name imnsho). Which means taking to F2 (not true because not both parents of F1 where IBLs), and then at some point where the traits in offspring are a predicted result of me selecting the right plants, I guess I'll be "breeding".

Oooh, I hope I get a badge then, or maybe a hat, or wallet card yes yes, Sativied, "Breeder" :hump:

I'm rambling I know...
 
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Sativied said:
And I can piss a mile far! :hump:

Man so defensive over a few punnett results... which aren't influence by a number of years experience. Why is this suddenly about me and you? Ah... ad hominem... You respond like a defoliator who ran out of arguments but here's the kicker: I'm not disagreeing with the results you're getting, on the contrary:


So yes, a (true) F1 (of stable ibl parents) should have very little variety like the 3 phenos you're seeing.





:peace:

You must have me confused with someone else :lol: Seriously though, that's an easy answer for me personally: none. But for you, it depends on what your goal is with the breeding project. I wouldn't look for something stable to start with because that means it's either one of the same old IBLs or something newer but not less popular, so used a lot already. Reminds me of a post almost a year ago, I initially wanted to use NL#5xHaze:



Later I decided to take a different route and exclude those same old IBLs and derivatives I referred to in that post. So I got Cannalope Haze for a male. Quite ironic because it turns out Cannalope Haze is supposedly C99.. (long drama story don't ask, don't know what's true and what not) which contains those same old genetics again :lol: Anyway, I'm quite happy with the results so far (the F1s that aren't true F1s :) ).

Unstable has a bad ring but it usually also means more variation, which is what you, well, I anyway, want in my initial breeding stock.
So I would just look for strains that have certain traits you want to try and breed true or breed into another strain. Once you start crossing stable beyond F1 it becomes unstable so where in the line you begin doesn't matter that much (unless you want to cross someone else's IBLs and call yourself a breeder, or king of cannabis ;))

Anyway, what the fuck do I know, I have no "breeding" experience. :bigjoint: I'm still working on producing that initial breeding stock (which in my case is F2), right now I just got thousands of F1s of 4 different strains which all have something great, and all lack something. I'm currently testing the crosses (ready for actually testing the product in a month+) to determine which of the cross I'm going to work on first (which will be Chunk x Cannalope Haze, which I call P as an F1 cross deserves no name imnsho). Which means taking to F2 (not true because not both parents of F1 where IBLs), and then at some point where the traits in offspring are a predicted result of me selecting the right plants, I guess I'll be "breeding".

Oooh, I hope I get a badge then, or maybe a hat, or wallet card yes yes, Sativied, "Breeder" :hump:

I'm rambling I know...
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Lol im not upset or defensive im just saying in all my experience that is what happens. :) in my experience i dont generally breed strains that have more than 1 pheno and probably a rare mutant pheno of recessives. And when you breed a strain XX with YY you only get 3 phenos XX YY and XY there are no other possibilities. Sorry if you feel like im attacking you for some reason but im just trying to give info on my experience with breeding.

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No, not feeling attacked, thought for a sec you were given the typical format.

kmog33 said:
And when you breed a strain XX with YY you only get 3 phenos XX YY and XY there are no other possibilities.
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YY? Not the best example, hard to find an YY :)

What you're missing from the punnett square results I typed out and the ratio you give is that that is PER TRAIT (PHENO=TRAIT and NOT GENOTYPE), for all the genes.

"breed a strain XX with YY" makes no sense, there's no such thing as a "strain XX" or a "strain YY", those are genotypes, of which plants have more than 1...

What you claim would be true if the plant only had one gene or if all genes were linked. Neither is the case.

Anyway, can't make it any more obvious than I did in post #18 with the blueb x skunk example. As you said, "punnett squares and all" :rolleyes:
 
Sativied said:
No, not feeling attacked, thought for a sec you were given the typical format.

YY? Not the best example, hard to find an YY :)

What you're missing from the punnett square results I typed out and the ratio you give is that that is PER TRAIT (PHENO=TRAIT and NOT GENOTYPE), for all the genes.

"breed a strain XX with YY" makes no sense, there's no such thing as a "strain XX" or a "strain YY", those are genotypes, of which plants have more than 1...

What you claim would be true if the plant only had one gene or if all genes were linked. Neither is the case.

Anyway, can't make it any more obvious than I did in post #18 with the blueb x skunk example. As you said, "punnett squares and all" :rolleyes:
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I was just using x and y and letter examples of one phenotype.

As in if x was the only phenotype of mom and y was the only phenotype of dad then the only phenos that could go into the next generation are the ones i mentioned. Sorry i made it such a basic variable but thats in my experience how it works if you have a strain stabilized to the point that all seeds grow out uniform, and you cross that with another uniform strain.
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fssalaska said:
This fool ^^
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080.jpg


Pathetic... couldn't you at least find your own video instead of the one I used for you :sleep:
 
kmog33 said:
I was just using x and y and letter examples of one phenotype.
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Yeah I get it, you don't fully understand what phenotype means, missing that makes post #18 rather pointless. Phenotype = a trait, the expression of one or more genotypes, of which a plant has more than 1 and their inheritance is not all linked. (leaving aside that one trait can be the result of multple genotypes and the other way around). Phenotype is not "a plant" or "a strain". One phenotype can have multiple genotypes. If in your example X is dominant over Y than XY and XX are the same phenotype and you have only two phenotypes but three genotypes. But again, only for the particular trait X and Y represent. Another trait in the same cross could be based on the genotypes AB, and AA, or BB. So there will be XX plants with AB, AA, and BB, but also YY plants and YX plants each with AB, AA, or BB.
 
Sativied said:
Yeah I get it, you don't fully understand what phenotype means, missing that makes post #18 rather pointless. Phenotype = a trait, the expression of one or more genotypes, of which a plant has more than 1 and their inheritance is not all linked. (leaving aside that one trait can be the result of multple genotypes and the other way around). Phenotype is not "a plant" or "a strain". One phenotype can have multiple genotypes. If in your example X is dominant over Y than XY and XX are the same phenotype and you have only two phenotypes but three genotypes. But again, only for the particular trait X and Y represent. Another trait in the same cross could be based on the genotypes AB, and AA, or BB. So there will be XX plants with AB, AA, and BB, but also YY plants and YX plants each with AB, AA, or BB.
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I agree a phenotype is the way genes are expressed and if in a strain, it has been worked enough that there is only one way the plant expresses its genes, there is one phenotype. If all plants of a strain turn out pretty much identical, that plant would have only one pheno right. I suppose all its genes would be pretty much identical too. Not exact but strains can be worked down into pretty uniform plants from all seeds. Not 100% but maybe 80 or so.

If x and y were the single phenos of the parents xy would be a new pheno is what i was saying. Not talking about specific traits here, more the plant as a whole with the variables.
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Burnt Reynolds said:
Well no shit, sherlock. That's not what the op asked. He asked about f2ing vortex, you responded with " the first generation you get 2 or 3 phenos". OP wasn't talking about crossing two different but stable lines. You responded as if making any old f1 cross will be solid enough to only put out 2 or 3 phenos.


You have not been breeding for 10 years. Typical genius rollitupper blowing smoke up peoples asses with the fake expert routine.
https://www.rollitup.org/t/question-for-experienced-closet-growers.409133/
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Lol you seem mad buddy. But stated only things that are true about breeding stable strains. Sorry but yes i have been breeding almost 10 years and have a couple strains all the way stabilized and in every post i have mentioned ime and that i would only breed stable strains because i like solid genetics. Youre are the typical riuer trying troll on someone youve agreed with om this thread. The whole no shit sherlock just proves my point because i dumbed it down enough that it was easy enough to understand that you felt it needed that sarcasm in your response. I agree, what i stated was obvious you just didnt seem to understand it, trying to argue with something you keep agreeing with lol.

Its like you want to prove to me its more complicated than it is, when IME, it is not. If you get into mixing polyhybrid genetics that have not been all the way stabilized:
A. Thats not a strain yet, i really hate when people try to cross two plants and call the f1s a new strain, its not. Seven generations later...maybe if youve worked it correctly.
And
B. Ive stated several times i dont think its good to work with unstable genetics to breed as it will be even harder to establish stability.

Go smoke a bowl and chill out dude your aggressive comments are seeming kind of silly at this point.

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No, not mad. How on earth am I trying to make it seem more complicated than what it is? I've barely said anything in this thread. All the back and forth has been between you and sativied. I was showing that in 2011 you were talking about removing second floor levels of houses to grow giant indoor plants (because who the fuck does that?), and asking how to deal with plant stretch in a closet. It was really stupid and I thought it was a funny (and noobish) thing for someone to say that's claiming to have been stabilizing a strain for 10 years.

But I deleted that post (apparently while you were replying) because I figured if you're dumb enough to consider removing upper level floors in a dwelling to grow giant plants indoors and to lie about breeding for 10 years, that you would reply in some know it all manner and it would escalate, and then I would feel dumb for participating.

kmog33 said:
So I learned to grow on 36 acres of land and when I started indoor I'm used to cutting out the floor of a second story for 25+ foot ceilings for commercial grows so I'm used to space. I decided to use my coset for shits and giggles its about 3ft x 2ft and I've been vegging a month on feb 17. Shortest plants are 24" from top of soil to highest part of the plant the biggest are 32". I'm switching to 12/12 today because I realized if the big ones double in size thru flower, with the lights, they'll outgrow the closet. Opinions on if ill have problems and suggestions? And this is not a post for growing suggestions so don't try to tell me how to grow unless you want ur ego molested by comparing ur growing to mine...so please constructive comments only.
Click to expand...

You sounded like a real experienced fella in 2011. "Opinions and suggestions?" "This is not a post for suggestions". Lmao!!!
 
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Burnt Reynolds said:
No, not mad. How on earth am I trying to make it seem more complicated than what it is? I've barely said anything in this thread. All the back and forth has been between you and sativied. I was showing that in 2011 you were talking about removing second floor levels of houses to grow giant indoor plants (because who the fuck does that?), and asking how to deal with plant stretch in a closet. It was really stupid and I thought it was a funny (and noobish) thing for someone to say that's claiming to have been stabilizing a strain for 10 years.

But I deleted that post (apparently while you were replying) because I figured if you're dumb enough to consider removing upper level floors in a dwelling to grow giant plants indoors and to lie about breeding for 10 years, that you would reply in some know it all manner and it would escalate, and then I would feel dumb for participating.



You sounded like a real experienced fella in 2011. "Opinions and suggestions?" "This is not a post for suggestions". Lmao!!!
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Yep when i moved from larger scale to a tiny closet. In 2008 i was up in Mendocino doing outdoor and greenhouse so i thought a closet would be different as i was not used to growing in such a small space. And yes ive cut out ceilings and walls, but making a sealed easier this way, just as in a music studio. I had also been working with someone else up till that point and in 2011 is when i bought the dispensary i owned, moved to la, and started several indoor ops, 30+ lights. Its cool youre quoting me from almost 5 years ago though. I didn't realize you were going to stalk me via riu lol. If you did go through all my post you should see some of the larger ops and breeding ive done. So pulling out part that you thought would make me seem less credible and leaving out everything that proves my experience is just biased and one sided. Youre member name must have gotten messed with or something because youve only been around 2 months it says. Seems credible... Ive definitely said some dumb shit on here in the past. And i ask questions whenever im trying something different, like when i started dwc this past year. I thought it would be very different and cause problems, but it was fine. Still came here and asked questions about it like i was a newb lol, i have no problem being humble about shit like that, unlike many here. Lol

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Fortunately i got to work with some awesome people/breeders up north up til the point im came on here, so when i came here it was to gain more and different knowledge. Heres a room we cut the ceilings into the attic and 2 rooms into each other. The room had 4 x 5' x 20' foot plots with two feet in between each and on the sides. We cut a lot of the floor out and rebuilt it also for ventilation and insulation purposes.

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And another one bites the "dust"...

I should add a disclaimer to my signature.... sort of warning... if you're a pollen chucker who derives his self-esteem from pretending to have breeding experience, don't get into a discussion with me. It will make you butt hurt :lol: Which yes, becomes obvious as soon as you needed to boost your own ego by pretending you have 10 years breeding experience. And that's not because I'm such an expert... it just requires the will the learn and understand, and some intellectual honesty (see sig...).

You mentioned "Punnett squares and all" but you clearly don't understand how to apply those and use it to actually breed... based on your comments you don't understand the difference between phenotype variety and genotype variety and hence what 'unstable' actually means in a given context.

Genetics for kids: http://www.exploringnature.org/db/detail.php?dbID=22&detID=2290

kmog33 said:
ive been breeding for almost 10 years
Click to expand...
bubble_burst.jpg




Given the flowering time and requirement to test offspring and product, gaining actual breeding experience takes a long time. Understanding what breeding is beyond a point most of the self-proclaimed breeders do, however, takes about a day tops.

http://www.aces.uiuc.edu/vista/html_pubs/PLBREED/pl_breed.html#her

The laws of heredity explain why different traits are inherited by offspring of the same parents. Moreover, these laws make it possible to predict the number of offspring that will inherit a [one] certain trait. A knowledge of the laws of heredity is essential for effective plant breeding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_genetics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_breeding

Wikipedia isn't an ultimate source, but the key words and terms mentioned on those pages combined with google... the information is all out there, there are no secrets...

@racerboy71:

Steps of plant breeding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_breeding#Modern_plant_breeding)
The following are the major activities of plant breeding:
  1. Collection of variation
  2. Selection
  3. Evaluation
  4. Release
  5. Multiplication
  6. Distribution of the new variety
Like I said, unstable usually means more variation. And more variation is what a breeder should desire to start out with if the goal is too breed a new variety. If you cross two stable strains you're doing just that, crossing stable strains. If you take them to F2, you get the variety (unstable offspring) from which a selection for a new variety becomes more meaningful. The goal is to breed as many as possible traits true, which in no way, of course, means you need to start with true bred (stable) traits.

Another one:
"Plant breeding is the generation of variation, selection of plants and genetic stabilization (fixing) of traits to obtain varieties with reproducible desired characteristics. "
http://www.seedquest.com/keyword/seedbiotechnologies/primers/varietydevelopment/introduction.htm

So for actual breeding something new, you obviously need to generate variety to pick from first (for example create an F2, or just pollen chuck your favorite unstable strains together and from that chaos breed something). Simple logic for me frankly, but as you can see in the quotes above it's what breeding (rather than making crosses) is about. It's the step bean makers and pollen chuckers skip because it requires actual breeding to make something out of it. The reason it's easier to start out with stable genetics in general is because you can predict and detect the punnett square outcome more easily and it's what a true F1 requires. Doesn't mean it's necessarily better for your goals, especially if that includes wanting to avoid the same ol' or already widely used IBLs. I'm suggesting you create those yourself. Sure that takes a lot of time (not 10 years) but at least you won't be kidding yourself that you're breeding, you'll actually be doing it.

And that underlined step is the part I'm still working on, does that mean I get a preliminary badge? (:
 
Sativied said:
And another one bites the "dust"...

I should add a disclaimer to my signature.... sort of warning... if you're a pollen chucker who derives his self-esteem from pretending to have breeding experience, don't get into a discussion with me. It will make you butt hurt :lol: Which yes, becomes obvious as soon as you needed to boost your own ego by pretending you have 10 years breeding experience. And that's not because I'm such an expert... it just requires the will the learn and understand, and some intellectual honesty (see sig...).

You mentioned "Punnett squares and all" but you clearly don't understand how to apply those and use it to actually breed... based on your comments you don't understand the difference between phenotype variety and genotype variety and hence what 'unstable' actually means in a given context.

Genetics for kids: http://www.exploringnature.org/db/detail.php?dbID=22&detID=2290


bubble_burst.jpg




Given the flowering time and requirement to test offspring and product, gaining actual breeding experience takes a long time. Understanding what breeding is beyond a point most of the self-proclaimed breeders do, however, takes about a day tops.

http://www.aces.uiuc.edu/vista/html_pubs/PLBREED/pl_breed.html#her

The laws of heredity explain why different traits are inherited by offspring of the same parents. Moreover, these laws make it possible to predict the number of offspring that will inherit a [one] certain trait. A knowledge of the laws of heredity is essential for effective plant breeding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_genetics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_breeding

Wikipedia isn't an ultimate source, but the key words and terms mentioned on those pages combined with google... the information is all out there, there are no secrets...

@racerboy71:

Steps of plant breeding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_breeding#Modern_plant_breeding)
The following are the major activities of plant breeding:
  1. Collection of variation
  2. Selection
  3. Evaluation
  4. Release
  5. Multiplication
  6. Distribution of the new variety
Like I said, unstable usually means more variation. And more variation is what a breeder should desire to start out with if the goal is too breed a new variety. If you cross two stable strains you're doing just that, crossing stable strains. If you take them to F2, you get the variety (unstable offspring) from which a selection for a new variety becomes more meaningful. The goal is to breed as many as possible traits true, which in no way, of course, means you need to start with true bred (stable) traits.

Another one:
"Plant breeding is the generation of variation, selection of plants and genetic stabilization (fixing) of traits to obtain varieties with reproducible desired characteristics. "
http://www.seedquest.com/keyword/seedbiotechnologies/primers/varietydevelopment/introduction.htm

So for actual breeding something new, you obviously need to generate variety to pick from first (for example create an F2, or just pollen chuck your favorite unstable strains together and from that chaos breed something). Simple logic for me frankly, but as you can see in the quotes above it's what breeding (rather than making crosses) is about. It's the step bean makers and pollen chuckers skip because it requires actual breeding to make something out of it. The reason it's easier to start out with stable genetics in general is because you can predict and detect the punnett square outcome more easily and it's what a true F1 requires. Doesn't mean it's necessarily better for your goals, especially if that includes wanting to avoid the same ol' or already widely used IBLs. I'm suggesting you create those yourself. Sure that takes a lot of time (not 10 years) but at least you won't be kidding yourself that you're breeding, you'll actually be doing it.

And that underlined step is the part I'm still working on, does that mean I get a preliminary badge? (:
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I agree with most of this lol . I was just saying ime i like to work with stable strains as it is easier to predict the outcome. Then you can mix in the exact traits you want together without it being as time consuming as starting with instability.

To each their own though.

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And as far as butthurt i feel like this could have been a productive discussion but instead has turned into personal attacks and penis measuring lol but i wasnt the one that swung it that way ;)

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as to the underlined sativied, is there any way to know in advance which characteristics are dominate and which are recessive, or do you pretty much have to run a few beans of the crosses and look at the numbers of each desired trait in the offsprings?
 
Sativied said:
Yeah I get it, you don't fully understand what phenotype means, missing that makes post #18 rather pointless. Phenotype = a trait, the expression of one or more genotypes, of which a plant has more than 1 and their inheritance is not all linked. (leaving aside that one trait can be the result of multple genotypes and the other way around). Phenotype is not "a plant" or "a strain". One phenotype can have multiple genotypes. If in your example X is dominant over Y than XY and XX are the same phenotype and you have only two phenotypes but three genotypes. But again, only for the particular trait X and Y represent. Another trait in the same cross could be based on the genotypes AB, and AA, or BB. So there will be XX plants with AB, AA, and BB, but also YY plants and YX plants each with AB, AA, or BB.
Click to expand...
i am 100% on your side i dont beleive this guy really understands what "phenotype means"
i havent been breeding for 10 years but i have a good amount of experience and im gunna tell you straight up within the f2 all the shit gets mixed youll have dinky little plants oozing with resin all the way up to giants that smoke like grass ive ran numbers in the hundreds numerous times so im nit juat talking out of my ass.
 
Which is Mendell's side, the guy who determined the laws in the first place.


I.e. I'm not making this shit up. Opinions and perceptions after a decade of experience are often still just that. That's not dismissing the value of experience, but it does not equal 'understanding'. Reminds me of the factory worker analogy I posted in a thread that got deleted. Some work with the same machinery for decades but are clueless about it's inner workings.


According to the principle of independent assortment, different pairs of alleles are passed to offspring independently of each other. The result is that new combinations of genes present in neither parent are possible. [and that's of course what you want when you want to create a new strain]

http://biology.about.com/od/geneticsglossary/g/Mendels-Law-Of-Independent-Assortment.htm which shows a similar example as to mine in post #18...

Basic stuff anyone with actual breeding experience understands, and anyone who even thinks about starting a breeding project should understand before even starting. It's kind of what it's all about. It's what allows for the creation of new strains instead of having "some plants that look like mom and some plants that look like dad and some that have a mix"

Like I said, it's all out there, all the information one could possibly need to understand breeding. Just need to work on the assumption you know shit. It's liberating. The only thing that matters is knowing what you don't know (instead of pretending you know shit) - again intellectually honesty. Without it, people would still be claiming the world is flat. Without it, I'd still be saying the same thing kmogg does (I have, on RIU.)

racerboy71 said:
as to the underlined sativied, is there any way to know in advance which characteristics are dominate and which are recessive, or do you pretty much have to run a few beans of the crosses and look at the numbers of each desired trait in the offsprings?
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Some you can know in advance because others have shared their actual experience with the inheritance of those traits from that strain. Some breeders may provide logs if you get their blessing and some breeding stock. Some will answer if you simply ask them. Especially, and I don't mean that as an attack to anyone (!), especially if you don't pretend to be a breeder when you're not.

For the rest, yes, you will have to test. Mendel made up a term for that too, a little simpler than "the principle of independent assortment", it's called,*drumroll*.... a "Test Cross": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_cross

That's why I said, backcrossing can be convenient because you already have an idea of how dominant it is (in general and traits).

As for recessive traits, you mentioned this earlier:

racerboy71 said:
all of the recessives show their ugly heads..
Click to expand...

"Recessive traits" has a bad ring perhaps, but they are not ugly per se. Auto-flowering genes, certain tastes, colors and other esthetics and for all I know many other good traits are recessive. It doesn't say anything about their ugliness, just how they inherit. It is very easy to see if a recessive trait is homozygous (stable, bred true) because recessive traits only show when they are homozygous (aa). That's why they don't appear in the next generation if crossed with a homozygous dominant (AA). Then all offspring is heterozygous Aa and the dominant A wins and a doesn't show (as a phenotype even though it's in the genotype). They can be ugly to work with because the generation in which you stabilized the recessive trait (F3 for example) might not be the generation you want to release/end with. Creating an autoflowering version of your favorite strain is a great way to practice breeding a recessive trait by actually doing it.
 
yeah i get you bro, pics or it didnt happen right? well ill sho you.... ill show you all!!! MWAHAHA
(im going tp post.some "cool" stuff on the breeders paradise subforum this weekend i promise)
in all seriousness tho im pretty blitzed right now but imma dump some pics on a buddys computer this weekend and put up.
-MAG
 
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