Have any of you DIY COB Growers finished a crop under 1000W DE HPS? - POLL

Have any of you DIY COB Growers have actually finished a crop under 1000W DE HPS?

  • Yes

    Votes: 32 29.1%
  • No

    Votes: 78 70.9%

  • Total voters
    110

wietefras

Well-Known Member
I prefer to keep it pure umol vs umol and not speculate about spectrums.
Don't forget the wall losses. With a HPS hanging 3' above the canopy, you lose a lot of light on the walls (or floor if there are aisles). So after initially already losing a minimum of 17% on the HPS reflector you will lose something like that again because of the wide angle beam and height.

You're lucky to get even 1.3 to 1.4umol/J from that HPS actually on your plants.

COBs can be much closer and even without optics their beam is much narrower. So much less wall losses there. and with COBs there is usually no need for reflector losses at all. So already there you will gain a lot on HPS. Even if the umol/J is the same.

Leds are also multi point lights giving much more diffuse light than HPS. Which means better penetration.

I have fixtures with old CXB COBs running at only 2umol/J and 800W of that already equals in harvest what I got from my Gavita DE boosted to 1150W (around 1200g). At 2.8umol/J really 550W to 600W should be enough to match that DE fixture.
 

CannaBruh

Well-Known Member
Don't forget the wall losses. With a HPS hanging 3' above the canopy, you lose a lot of light on the walls (or floor if there are aisles). So after initially already losing a minimum of 17% on the HPS reflector you will lose something like that again because of the wide angle beam and height.

You're lucky to get even 1.3 to 1.4umol/J from that HPS actually on your plants.

COBs can be much closer and even without optics their beam is much narrower. So much less wall losses there. and with COBs there is usually no need for reflector losses at all. So already there you will gain a lot on HPS. Even if the umol/J is the same.

Leds are also multi point lights giving much more diffuse light than HPS. Which means better penetration.

I have fixtures with old CXB COBs running at only 2umol/J and 800W of that already equals in harvest what I got from my Gavita DE boosted to 1150W (around 1200g). At 2.8umol/J really 550W to 600W should be enough to match that DE fixture.
good points
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Upfront cost is more with LED
Upkeep cost is far greater with conventional HID
Currently, this is true. It won't be true for much longer.

That's no reason to wait to buy LED light fixtures because as soon as you do, they start saving you money. At the price and quality now available, you'll always save more buying them over traditional lighting.
 

applepoop1984

Well-Known Member
well remember that hps uses 1100+W and on a system efficiency is only pushing 1.7 umol/J gross with less than ideal coverage.

with a far better spectrum i think 550W at 2.8 umol/J might approach the results of 1100W 1.7 umol/J - spectrum could give a 10% or more edge to the QB fixture

a 600H instead of a 480H driver pushing it certainly would, but then we're talking 750W
Could you recommend a setup for me? It's a 2 foot by 2 foot by 4 foot high grow tent
 

cdgmoney250

Well-Known Member
Lol… blast from the past! This thread aged like milk.
Ah, the good ol’ days indeed.
A bunch of people ate crow from this haha.
Glad to see the organic vs synthetic debate still ten years later.

The yield debate between HID and LED has long since been settled, but I love that the spectrum argument is still going strong.

:fire:This seems an appropriate place to keep the torch burning.
 

OneHitDone

Well-Known Member
Lol… blast from the past! This thread aged like milk.
Ah, the good ol’ days indeed.
A bunch of people ate crow from this haha.
Glad to see the organic vs synthetic debate still ten years later.

The yield debate between HID and LED has long since been settled, but I love that the spectrum argument is still going strong.

:fire:This seems an appropriate place to keep the torch burning.
Interesting indeed! Neither of the technologies that were the topic of the thread could be seen as a 1st choice today.
To rub a little salt, DE HPS is much more prominent than COB's still going into 2025.
After many product trials and taking power consumption etc into account my $ went into BIOS Bar Led's. ✌
 

cdgmoney250

Well-Known Member
Interesting indeed! Neither of the technologies that were the topic of the thread could be seen as a 1st choice today.
To rub a little salt, DE HPS is much more prominent than COB's still going into 2025.
After many product trials and taking power consumption etc into account my $ went into BIOS Bar Led's. ✌
Your’e totally right, the COB trend didn’t last that long. But I feel like they ‘shined a light’ on the feasibility of the new led tech at the time, where leading up to that it was a few fringe growers against an entire community of nay-sayers.

Now LED is by far the prevalent form of indoor lighting, especially with rack systems/vertical integration. But we haven’t really reached the pinnacle have we? I don’t think so. That’s why I’m in the process of testing some sunlike spectrums added to the common spectrum recipe. (I think you played with some Bridgelux thrive iirc?)

I always admired your garden and glad to see you still around:peace:
 

jimihendrix1

Well-Known Member
LED will most likeley never match the specrum of a Hortilux Blue, or the new MassMedicalStrains Hortilux Blue Replica, but is 20% More Powerful. Has a 6000k color temp. Sun, at the equator, at mid day, is 5800k.
Hort Blue/MMS Halide. has a 280nm-2000nm+ Spectrum.

MMS says experiments with the same strain showed the strain(s) used produced more chemicals vs LED. Under the LED, some of the chemicals, WERE NONEXISTANT.

Useful Invisible Light

Plants use both visible light and invisible light wavelengths! The latest science proves that the short and long wavelengths outside of the visible spectrum actually drive photosynthesis and other cellular processes. Like the sun, MH technology produces light wavelengths from ~280nm to over 2000nm! While horticulture research focused on visible light (400-700nm) emissions, they mostly neglected the invisible portions of the spectrum which are present in sunlight and bulbs too. Science is slowly discovering that plants use much more than just the PAR range of light energy.
Light with a wavelength of 720-1000nm (FR, namely far infrared light) has a low absorption rate in plants, but it stimulates the elongation of plant cells affects flowering and seed germination.


Fuller Genetic Expressions
In lab tests, additional compounds are regularly produced only under MH lighting. One example is our Star Pupil clone, which produces the best flavor and effect when flowered under MH. Labs show that it produces additional rare cannabinoids, CBL and CBC, and additional terpenes Geraniol, Guaiol, Cymene, and Eucalyptol, NONE, of which were present at all when flowered with HPS, LED, or even CMH.

It produces 1650 PPFD at 24" distance. With a larger reflector such as a Raptor hood, it can spread wider and be positioned closer, producing 1100 PPFD at 24" distance.
Also not saying LED cant grow good weed, because they can. Ive also smoked killer weed from a mix of Cool White/Warm White fluorescents, and in hot climates, LED is much easier to deal with.
BUT, Im not convinced LED GROWS BETTER WEED. And, even if they can beat HID on yield, that doesnt mean the weed is better.

Useful Light Ranges - Beyond PAR
Grow lamp efficiency is traditionally measured within the PAR Range of light which covers 400nm-700nm wavelengths. We now know that plants use light that ranges from 280nm past 800nm, as well as the infrared range that goes past 2000nm! New measurement standards can quantify this useful light energy as well, and changes our understanding of efficiency of grow bulbs. Bulbs put out a lot of useful light energy that was not being measured before!

With new scientifically backed ePAR (Extended PAR) (380-750nm) or PBAR (Photobiological Active Radiation) (280nm-800nm) measurements, we learn that high-frequency MH technology is putting out at least a 10% increase in useful light for plants than the industry previously thought. While most lighting brands calculate their efficiency based on PAR measurements, we know that plants use a lot more than just PAR energy. Using these new measurement standards, we see that MH is even more efficient than many statistics previously claimed.

PAR vs. ePAR

Using extended ePar measurements, our MH bulb emits an additional ~75-80ppfd higher than regular Par measurements, while HPS and LED technologies emit only ~10-25ppfd higher in this extended range.) The measured PAR of a Metal Halide could be 600ppfd, while its ePAR measurement would be ~680ppfd. The measured PAR of an LED or HPS could be 600ppfd, but its ePAR would be ~610-625ppfd. This means that between two lights with the same standard PAR measurement, the Metal Halide is always putting out more useful light than LED or HPS. Within the extended range (700-750nm), MH puts out useful light at a greater amount than other lights. This raises the efficiency of MH bulbs higher than traditional calculations claimed.

Our measurements are stated in standard PAR for ease of comparison and familiar understanding for most growers, even though ePar and pbar measurements would show a higher number and more efficiency on our light!

Aren’t LED’s more efficient at producing light?
It actually depends on what you measure and how you measure it! Efficiency claims are often stating the amount of visible light produced per watt (PAR, 400-700nm), and ignoring the missing parts of the spectrum (quantity over quality, in a sense.) To calculate how much light is produced, we should be measuring pbar (280nm-800nm) or even a wider range. Since these are not yet being used in the mainstream, LEDs appear disproportionately more efficient at producing photons. Companies are simply not measuring many of the useful photons produced by MH bulbs.

LED lights are not producing energy in the invisible light portions which are responsible for close to 20% of photosynthetic activity! Just outside of the PAR regions, our MH bulbs produce plenty of useful light for the plants, which traditional efficiency measurements ignore.

While an LED can still use less watts to light the same size space, they are missing out on important light spectrum benefits, as described above. It's not only about the amount of light, but the variety of wavelengths present and their ratios as well, equating to MH having a superior quality of light spectrum.

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1737227008040.png
 
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OneHitDone

Well-Known Member
LED will most likeley never match the specrum of a Hortilux Blue, or the new MassMedicalStrains Hortilux Blue Replica, but is 20% More Powerful. Has a 6000k color temp. Sun, at the equator, at mid day, is 5800k.
Hort Blue/MMS Halide. has a 280nm-2000nm+ Spectrum.

MMS says experiments with the same strain showed the strain(s) used produced more chemicals vs LED. Under the LED, some of the chemicals, WERE NONEXISTANT.

Useful Invisible Light

Plants use both visible light and invisible light wavelengths! The latest science proves that the short and long wavelengths outside of the visible spectrum actually drive photosynthesis and other cellular processes. Like the sun, MH technology produces light wavelengths from ~280nm to over 2000nm! While horticulture research focused on visible light (400-700nm) emissions, they mostly neglected the invisible portions of the spectrum which are present in sunlight and bulbs too. Science is slowly discovering that plants use much more than just the PAR range of light energy.
Light with a wavelength of 720-1000nm (FR, namely far infrared light) has a low absorption rate in plants, but it stimulates the elongation of plant cells affects flowering and seed germination.


Fuller Genetic Expressions
In lab tests, additional compounds are regularly produced only under MH lighting. One example is our Star Pupil clone, which produces the best flavor and effect when flowered under MH. Labs show that it produces additional rare cannabinoids, CBL and CBC, and additional terpenes Geraniol, Guaiol, Cymene, and Eucalyptol, NONE, of which were present at all when flowered with HPS, LED, or even CMH.

It produces 1650 PPFD at 24" distance. With a larger reflector such as a Raptor hood, it can spread wider and be positioned closer, producing 1100 PPFD at 24" distance.
Also not saying LED cant grow good weed, because they can. Ive also smoked killer weed from a mix of Cool White/Warm White fluorescents, and in hot climates, LED is much easier to deal with.
BUT, Im not convinced LED GROWS BETTER WEED. And, even if they can beat HID on yield, that doesnt mean the weed is better.

Useful Light Ranges - Beyond PAR
Grow lamp efficiency is traditionally measured within the PAR Range of light which covers 400nm-700nm wavelengths. We now know that plants use light that ranges from 280nm past 800nm, as well as the infrared range that goes past 2000nm! New measurement standards can quantify this useful light energy as well, and changes our understanding of efficiency of grow bulbs. Bulbs put out a lot of useful light energy that was not being measured before!

With new scientifically backed ePAR (Extended PAR) (380-750nm) or PBAR (Photobiological Active Radiation) (280nm-800nm) measurements, we learn that high-frequency MH technology is putting out at least a 10% increase in useful light for plants than the industry previously thought. While most lighting brands calculate their efficiency based on PAR measurements, we know that plants use a lot more than just PAR energy. Using these new measurement standards, we see that MH is even more efficient than many statistics previously claimed.

PAR vs. ePAR

Using extended ePar measurements, our MH bulb emits an additional ~75-80ppfd higher than regular Par measurements, while HPS and LED technologies emit only ~10-25ppfd higher in this extended range.) The measured PAR of a Metal Halide could be 600ppfd, while its ePAR measurement would be ~680ppfd. The measured PAR of an LED or HPS could be 600ppfd, but its ePAR would be ~610-625ppfd. This means that between two lights with the same standard PAR measurement, the Metal Halide is always putting out more useful light than LED or HPS. Within the extended range (700-750nm), MH puts out useful light at a greater amount than other lights. This raises the efficiency of MH bulbs higher than traditional calculations claimed.

Our measurements are stated in standard PAR for ease of comparison and familiar understanding for most growers, even though ePar and pbar measurements would show a higher number and more efficiency on our light!

Aren’t LED’s more efficient at producing light?
It actually depends on what you measure and how you measure it! Efficiency claims are often stating the amount of visible light produced per watt (PAR, 400-700nm), and ignoring the missing parts of the spectrum (quantity over quality, in a sense.) To calculate how much light is produced, we should be measuring pbar (280nm-800nm) or even a wider range. Since these are not yet being used in the mainstream, LEDs appear disproportionately more efficient at producing photons. Companies are simply not measuring many of the useful photons produced by MH bulbs.

LED lights are not producing energy in the invisible light portions which are responsible for close to 20% of photosynthetic activity! Just outside of the PAR regions, our MH bulbs produce plenty of useful light for the plants, which traditional efficiency measurements ignore.

While an LED can still use less watts to light the same size space, they are missing out on important light spectrum benefits, as described above. It's not only about the amount of light, but the variety of wavelengths present and their ratios as well, equating to MH having a superior quality of light spectrum.

View attachment 5451565

View attachment 5451566
While pretty much everything in this post had been my "belief" in prior years, I am starting to waver a bit.
It's kinda like the "organic produces more nutritious green leafy vegetables" concept. I have not seen a true study that demonstrates this yet. If anyone else has please share. That is what I was hopeful for and why I went down the organic soil path for a few years. Learned a lot robot natural inputs in general and really what a healthy plant should look and taste like.
This crosses over to lighting. Previously I would have believed that T5 or MH produced a far superior product on leafy greens. Once introducing organics into the equation pretty much all "LED Deficiency" or "Cal-Mag" issues vaporized leading me to think there is much more to the story.
I have since grown many crops under LED and with synthetic fertilizer that I would say surpasses the taste and quality of the T5 / Organic I had set as a "Standard".

What are your thoughts on the wavelengths emitted from LED fixtures as Heat? Clearly this fit into the Far-Infrared category. ✌
 

OneHitDone

Well-Known Member
Your’e totally right, the COB trend didn’t last that long. But I feel like they ‘shined a light’ on the feasibility of the new led tech at the time, where leading up to that it was a few fringe growers against an entire community of nay-sayers.

Now LED is by far the prevalent form of indoor lighting, especially with rack systems/vertical integration. But we haven’t really reached the pinnacle have we? I don’t think so. That’s why I’m in the process of testing some sunlike spectrums added to the common spectrum recipe. (I think you played with some Bridgelux thrive iirc?)

I always admired your garden and glad to see you still around:peace:
Glad to still see you around as well bro!
I think what really put the kibosh on the cob trend was the price. Those damn heat sinks were just too expensive.
Obviously with bar lights becoming much more affordable they became the clear choice for indoor low ceiling grows just due to the superior ppfd distribution. ✌
 

jimihendrix1

Well-Known Member
While pretty much everything in this post had been my "belief" in prior years, I am starting to waver a bit.
It's kinda like the "organic produces more nutritious green leafy vegetables" concept. I have not seen a true study that demonstrates this yet. If anyone else has please share. That is what I was hopeful for and why I went down the organic soil path for a few years. Learned a lot robot natural inputs in general and really what a healthy plant should look and taste like.
This crosses over to lighting. Previously I would have believed that T5 or MH produced a far superior product on leafy greens. Once introducing organics into the equation pretty much all "LED Deficiency" or "Cal-Mag" issues vaporized leading me to think there is much more to the story.
I have since grown many crops under LED and with synthetic fertilizer that I would say surpasses the taste and quality of the T5 / Organic I had set as a "Standard".

What are your thoughts on the wavelengths emitted from LED fixtures as Heat? Clearly this fit into the Far-Infrared category. ✌
Dont really understand the question.
Do I think the far red, from LED, is a good heat source? Really LED only has Spots of IR. The actual Bulb, has the full spectrum. All the way to 2500nm. I liken it to digital vs analog. Analog, has more information. I believe the best CD, has about 50,000 bits of info per cycles per second, and analog, has 160,000 cycles per second.
 
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