Helicopters, thermal FLIR cameras ~ actual crop shown!

Burger Boss

Well-Known Member
To me, this all sounds like a bunch "wheel spinning"! If you live in CA, it's 62 more days till we can put all the FEAR away, and get on with normal (excuse the pun) lives. And for the rest of ya, It's COMING!!!! You don't stop the sunrise, or the tides. And you can't stop GOOD people from enjoying one of God's gifts.
Good luck & good grow.......BB
 
I spoke to a aerospace engineer friend last night about FLIR detection and the only thing he could think of to fool FLIR was a array of LEDs to throw off the FLIR sensors? But LED's have a extremely narrow beam width, much like a flashlight. In fact I think it's only 15~20 degrees in actual beam width? So LEDs are most effective when the FLIR is almost directly above the LEDs and not effective at all from any other angle. There are also issues of lots of custom wiring, power, etc. And can you imagine what 100 or 500 LEDs would look like to FLIR? Christmas! and you were trying to keep a low profile... ha-ha (laughing at myself).

And please, let's be clear. FLIR is not like night-vision goggles or scopes that contain their own light sources. FLIR does not contain, generate or require a 'floodlight' to detect and measure it's target. And IF FLIR did require a flood just imagine the size that flood would need to be to make it effective enough to light up a target miles away? Not to mention the weight, cost and how many bedrooms you would light up along the miles too?

FLIR scans for heat generated fromthe source up to it's sensors and that is a one way ticket and that's why FLIR can see heat targets many miles away!

As for FLIR in space, sadly it's a natural. And again, there is no need for FLIR to 'light up the earth'. To back that up just think of our weather satellites that constantly (and extremely accurately) measure almost everything from space! Satellites do not require a flood, but they do have very sensitive and specialized detectors ~ with and without filters ~ all measuring across the spectrum as we know it ~ from 15 feet below the earths' surface (radar), up into radio frequencies and beyond!

FLIR is the same as a satellite, with it's filters and software FLIR is tailored according to specific needs. And FLIR filters are very similar to a lock combination on a safe ~ the right (read exact) combination and BINGO!

I see your point about a plastic cover and I agree. The plastic will block the plant signature emissions. But the plastic would not be blank because it would be very effective at reflecting sun heat back, so the plastic would be quite a large and unusual target for FLIR with or without the grass. More to the point, the surface temperature of suspended plastic with baking grass on it when compared to a 'bare earth standard' is all too easy for FLIR to discern. I must add that I don't know if bare earth is the standard, I only offered it as a possible reference.

And you are right, if one had a garden of five or six plants (lets say) under a white tarp attached to a house or what-have-you, your crop would indeed be cloaked and not visible to FLIR, but the plastic/fiberglass tarp would be! Also me thinks most plants outside favor a southern view for the maximum sunlight exposure? So I suppose all a pilot would need to do is fly from south to north and if ones marijuana plants are visible at all from that angle I suspect FLIR would have a hit!.. no pun intended.

Someone mentioned reflectiveness? In labs many things are 'fingerprinted' for signatures unique to it only. One of the ways items are classified is reflectiveness. So in this case, marijuana is bombarded with calibrated broad-spectrum light. The reflectiveness or specific light patterns from the marijuana back to the sensors across the bands determine the species ~ much like DNA.

Once a signature is designated, equipment (FLIR) can be calibrated to detect and report only that signature before it alarms. Yes, other items will also be seen on the FLIR display, but there is no "alarm" until there is a exact marijuana signature match. And if a oak tree is 10% less reflective than cannabis, that truly is a tremendous difference!

You commented that "IR bounces off the 1st thing it hits." but I would not equate IR to radar ~ so in this case no. It's much like IR Senors used in home and business alarms. The IR Sensors are not sending out IR to be reflected, they are instead 'looking' for it.

Hope this helps!
SOGLAD




Well the way im thinking is if the plastic keeps the IR from bouncing back (Flir does use IR beems and they must bounce back to sensors to be read. look at your chart it says right on it reflectiveness) your gonna have just a blank spot on the FLIR display. That would be like showing a red flag to a bull. So we need to hide the blank spot with something. If we covered the plastic with grass cuttings or leaves the IR would bounce off of them and there would no longer be a blank spot on the display. Instead it would look like normal ground cover.. I understand plants need light and you wouldnt be able to keep them covered all the time.. Thats why i said it would be a bitch to know when u need to cloke you plants. Im just thinking out loud basicly, brain storming on how we can beat them bastards.. As far as the FLIR or FLUR on Sats it wouldnt work.. There would be way to much interferance shooting an IR beem that far. I doubt it would even make it through the atmosphere. If you have ever seen a chopper out scanning for weed you would see they fly super low. This is because you need a straight line of sight with nothing between the sensors and your target.. The IR bounces off the 1st thing it hits.



Swisha your right to an extent.. a few plants in the right spot would be almost impossible to detect. There are many trees and plants that are close to the same signature as MJ.. On that chart it shows an oak tree is 10% less reflective then canabis. So a canabis plant next to an oak tree would be tuff to spot.. What gets people caught up is when they plant in places like corn fields and river banks where there is nothing close to the same signature as a canabis plant.. For example if you had a blue peice of paper with a little tiny red dot on it, the red dot would stick out.. But if you had a red peice of paper with a little orange dot it would be much harder to spot the orange dot.. when there on the hunt for canabis they are looking for the blue paper with the red dot.. Also I've never realy seen them scanning private property like they do fields or state parks.. It's expensive to fly choppers, there not gonna waste there time looking for one or two plants.. They want to find the big plots with hundreds of plants in them and make a name for there self..
 
Yo, Spanishfly...

Please see this vital article and judge for yourself...

http://cannabisnews.com/news/5/thread5978.shtml

SOGLAD


OK, the leaking water is at a LOWER temperature than the soil presumably. And the plants, which happen to be grapes (but are just an indistinct blur), are at a different temperature to both the water and soil. But they will be at the SAME temperature (or very nearly so) as plants in the next field, whatever they may be!! And this camera differentiates only between objects of different temperatures.

I can see nothing to be alarmed about in the images shown.
 

Spanishfly

Well-Known Member
To me, this all sounds like a bunch "wheel spinning"! If you live in CA, it's 62 more days till we can put all the FEAR away, and get on with normal (excuse the pun) lives. And for the rest of ya, It's COMING!!!! You don't stop the sunrise, or the tides. And you can't stop GOOD people from enjoying one of God's gifts.
Good luck & good grow.......BB
Think you are totally right, Burger, another load of BS.
 

Spanishfly

Well-Known Member
Yo, Spanishfly...

Please see this vital article and judge for yourself...

http://cannabisnews.com/news/5/thread5978.shtml

SOGLAD
You really think I have the time or inclination to read that alarmist rubbish?? Sorry, but still see nothing to be concerned about in the blurry pics shown.
I bet you are a global warming panicker as well - one of those people who naturally always WANT there to be a problem to fret about.
 
Yo Burger Boss,

I too hope California and all other states will soon be liberated, but few states are as progressive as Oregon, Colorado and California so all this talk about FLIR still matters to a legion of others elsewhere.

Boss, I highly recommend you checkout this article too and I think you will realize that marijuana detection is a fact and hardly wheel-spinning at all... I dislike being redundant, but here is the link again:

http://cannabisnews.com/news/5/thread5978.shtml

SG


To me, this all sounds like a bunch "wheel spinning"! If you live in CA, it's 62 more days till we can put all the FEAR away, and get on with normal (excuse the pun) lives. And for the rest of ya, It's COMING!!!! You don't stop the sunrise, or the tides. And you can't stop GOOD people from enjoying one of God's gifts.
Good luck & good grow.......BB
 

Spanishfly

Well-Known Member
I too hope California and all other states will soon be liberated, but few states are as progressive as Oregon, Colorado and California so all this talk about FLIR still matters to a legion of others elsewhere.
I really do hope that all you oppressed guys in the land of the NOT SO free will shortly be able to grow for your own use - as we already can here. Good luck with that.
 
And you are right, if one had a garden of five or six plants (lets say) under a white tarp attached to a house or what-have-you, your crop would indeed be cloaked and not visible to FLIR, but the plastic/fiberglass tarp would be!
If you can hide the signature of the plants they wont have probable cause to come onto your property nor will they be able to get warrant. Do you realize how many hillbillies have cars and shit in there yard coverd with tarps.? Whos to say its not a car or a boat under that tarp.. I read the article you linked thats 10 years old.. it realy dosent say much about how FLIR works other then it uses filters.. So here is what I found.. Infrared energy is part of the electromagnetic spectrum, which we perceive as heat, so it is invisible to the naked eye. Some level of thermal energy is emitted from all people, objects, and material. Infrared technology can be used to capture this energy and convert it into an image that is visible to the human eye. IR covers a portion of the electromagnetic spectrum from approximately 900 to 14,000 nanometers (0.9–14 µm). IR is emitted by all objects at temperatures above absolute zero, and the amount of radiation increases with temperature. Because thermal imaging cameras do not technically have to see the object in order to capture an image of it, they are perfect for use in dark and adverse weather conditions. Thermal imaging can successfully penetrate such environments as smoke, dense fog, snow, extreme darkness, and heavy rain. Bright lights also will not negatively affect the quality of the image generated by a FLIR camera device, even if light is shown directly into the camera itself. ( there goes the LED theory) You are right about it being used in sats but Its for milatary reasons. Im pretty sure our laws prevent them from using it to spy on us. If they did it would never hold up in court.. They have the tech on sats now to take a video of anything they want, anyplace they want, anytime they want. Basicly it is what it is.. They have had this tool for 10 years and they have found alot of marijuana with it, but they will never be able to find it all. It takes man power and money to run the equipment, and the technology is only as good as the human running it.. Like I said earlier they are using FLIR to find the big guerilla growers..
You don't stop the sunrise, or the tides. And you can't stop GOOD people from enjoying one of God's gifts.
Very Well Said my friend. If they come and rip up one of my plants im just gonna plant 5 more in its place. They can waste all the time and money they want to, BUT IN THE END MARIJUANA WILL WIN..!
 

wagontail

Active Member
Yo, Spanishfly...

Please see this vital article and judge for yourself...

http://cannabisnews.com/news/5/thread5978.shtml

SOGLAD
Uh, this is a press release from Orincon. What do you expect them to say? "We're selling this really expensive technology that's guaranteed to bring us billions, until someone figures out it's not as good as visual!"?

Take another look at the video. In the real world, the only place it would be good for would be to scan a monoculture (like a corn field) and pick out spots that are aberrant. Great, so...of those 1,358 outliers in that 60-acre cornfield, which ones are weeds, and which are Weed? At that point, the eye in the sky will have to take off his Minority Report helmet and get out the binoculars. Now, you go to a regular meadow. You think it they can make it specific for MJ, just because a chart compares it to ten other plants? Where I live, there are easily thousands of different types of plants growing, and many, many of them are going to have spectra similar to each other and to MJ. So it's time to get out the glasses again. This technology offers no advantage to eyeballing the ground, at least into the near future. It's an empty headline by a company trying to create a market for their product.
 

Burger Boss

Well-Known Member
Yo Burger Boss,

I too hope California and all other states will soon be liberated, but few states are as progressive as Oregon, Colorado and California so all this talk about FLIR still matters to a legion of others elsewhere.

Boss, I highly recommend you checkout this article too and I think you will realize that marijuana detection is a fact and hardly wheel-spinning at all... I dislike being redundant, but here is the link again:

http://cannabisnews.com/news/5/thread5978.shtml

SG
And Good Morning SG, I surely didn't mean to belittle the importance of grow security. Believe me, after 40+ years of growing, "security" is "burned" into my soul!
However, any grow op that would be detected by "flir", needs to be "worthy" of the time and effort involved in said survailence.
I would estimate there are several hundred small "backyard" grows just in my average central CA community. Example: I live in a senior moble home park of 175 homes, 6 of us have our grow on, that I KNOW of.
Now, bring on da FLIR, Bust the 6 of us, write up the reports, make the cases, (against "grandma & grandpa"!), jam it into an already overloaded court calendar, and so far you've covered 4 sq. blocks of a city of 250,000....................
I believe that any FLIR action would be used for detecting BIG ops, growing serupticiusly, and avoiding the taxes on their fields of "gold".
At least, that's what I see for CA. And once again I say, FREEDOM IS ON THE HORIZON FOR ALL!
Guys, I've waited 50 years for this time to come, 50 years of being a "criminal". But, finally it appears the cannabis consumming public has "grown a pair", and will demand an end of the insanity via the Proposition 19 Inititive.
So to my CA brothers and sisters, I say concern yourselves with getting the vote out, THEN, the FLIR will be meaningless.
Good luck & good grow.......BB
 
Mare A Wanna,

Thank you for your insight and all of your points are very well taken! I did not consider cars or boats covered in plastic or fiberglass covers and I imagine there are hundreds of thousands of them under the American skys!

From all I've discovered your technical comments about IR are right on too!

While the article I offered is somewhat aged, technology has only improved since then. If you would like more current articles here are a few STARTING Internet sites:

http://www.officer.com/

* search for marijuana
* search for FLIR

And for more look here:

http://www.policehelicopterpilot.com/police-helicopter-links/

Also go to:

http://calfire.blogspot.com/

* search for marijuana
* search for FLIR
* search for the both

For even more current articles go to Google and search for: "marijuana FLIR California", in example ~ substitute your state in the search filter.

Mare A Wanna, you are also very correct about warrants and here is more ~ the US Supreme court ruled that IR/FLIR signatures are NOT enought evidence alone for a judge to agree to a warrant and that's great news for us all.

And

The LED defense theory was not mine, but my aerospace engineer friend and again, he and I quickly agreed that a LED system against FLIR is not a good aproach at all. It was the first idea that came to him and maybe he's thought of other methods since then?

Again, Mare A Wanna, I thank you so much for your comments!

I remain,
SOGLAD

If you can hide the signature of the plants they wont have probable cause to come onto your property nor will they be able to get warrant. Do you realize how many hillbillies have cars and shit in there yard coverd with tarps.? Whos to say its not a car or a boat under that tarp.. I read the article you linked thats 10 years old.. it realy dosent say much about how FLIR works other then it uses filters.. So here is what I found.. Infrared energy is part of the electromagnetic spectrum, which we perceive as heat, so it is invisible to the naked eye. Some level of thermal energy is emitted from all people, objects, and material. Infrared technology can be used to capture this energy and convert it into an image that is visible to the human eye. IR covers a portion of the electromagnetic spectrum from approximately 900 to 14,000 nanometers (0.9–14 µm). IR is emitted by all objects at temperatures above absolute zero, and the amount of radiation increases with temperature. Because thermal imaging cameras do not technically have to see the object in order to capture an image of it, they are perfect for use in dark and adverse weather conditions. Thermal imaging can successfully penetrate such environments as smoke, dense fog, snow, extreme darkness, and heavy rain. Bright lights also will not negatively affect the quality of the image generated by a FLIR camera device, even if light is shown directly into the camera itself. ( there goes the LED theory) You are right about it being used in sats but Its for milatary reasons. Im pretty sure our laws prevent them from using it to spy on us. If they did it would never hold up in court.. They have the tech on sats now to take a video of anything they want, anyplace they want, anytime they want. Basicly it is what it is.. They have had this tool for 10 years and they have found alot of marijuana with it, but they will never be able to find it all. It takes man power and money to run the equipment, and the technology is only as good as the human running it.. Like I said earlier they are using FLIR to find the big guerilla growers..
Very Well Said my friend. If they come and rip up one of my plants im just gonna plant 5 more in its place. They can waste all the time and money they want to, BUT IN THE END MARIJUANA WILL WIN..!
 

Attachments

Indio

Member
Seems to me the best chance to negate FLIR lies in selective breeding- breed in traits that favor lower light requirements. I've actually heard the Nazi's state that one of the ways FLIR CAN be defeated, is if the ganja is planted under a tree's canopy (in shade)...
 

Bud Stankalot

Active Member
I don't give a damn about FLIR. As long as you don't have a gigantic weed crop all bunched together like a fool, you WILL not get caught with FLIR. How hard do you think it would be to spot a strand of three plants from the sky when you're surveying acres at a time? This is a dumbass thread trying to scare people. Why haven't all of us outdoor growers gone to jail if this were the case?
 

Bud Stankalot

Active Member
I just watched the youtube video the OP posted. LMFAO. If that's what you're worried about, you shouldn't be growing weed at all. The cops are probably about to kick your door in right now.

DON'T WORRY ABOUT FLIR. WORRY ABOUT ALL THE PEOPLE YOU TOLD ABOUT YOUR PLANTS!!!!
 
Bud,

This thread and my comments may lead you and others to believe that I am paranoid but please let me assure you I am not. I simply want to be both prudent and careful. Of course everyone makes their own choices and you are more than welcome to make your choices too!

As I viewed some of the many photos of incredibly large grow rooms on this site (and elsewhere) I wanted to know how 'exposed' I may be in my growing efforts and trust me, I am indeed exposed!

Thankfully my T5 lighting helps keep my heat exposure to a semi-reasonable roar but after all I've learned, today I purchased new fans and ducts to efficiently redirect my exhaust under my modest indoor farm instead of out of one side.

I know this will not mask the thermal patterns on my roof of my T5 lighting, but it will help attenuate my exhaust emissions significantly!

Bud, I urge you to 'don't shoot the messenger'... Instead I welcome you to do your own research to determine your own exposure ~ or don't. That choice is totally yours.

As for 'spot a strand of three plants from the sky', please consider thousands of radar guns and how much money they generate every year? And YES, I know it's a totally different topic and technology from this Thread and replying to that comment alone is not really necessary.

I personally remain better protected and...

SOGLAD


I don't give a damn about FLIR. As long as you don't have a gigantic weed crop all bunched together like a fool, you WILL not get caught with FLIR. How hard do you think it would be to spot a strand of three plants from the sky when you're surveying acres at a time? This is a dumbass thread trying to scare people. Why haven't all of us outdoor growers gone to jail if this were the case?
 

Bud Stankalot

Active Member
Bud,

This thread and my comments may lead you and others to believe that I am paranoid but please let me assure you I am not. I simply want to be both prudent and careful. Of course everyone makes their own choices and you are more than welcome to make your choices too!

As I viewed some of the many photos of incredibly large grow rooms on this site (and elsewhere) I wanted to know how 'exposed' I may be in my growing efforts and trust me, I am indeed exposed!

Thankfully my T5 lighting helps keep my heat exposure to a semi-reasonable roar but after all I've learned, today I purchased new fans and ducts to efficiently redirect my exhaust under my modest indoor farm instead of out of one side.

I know this will not mask the thermal patterns on my roof of my T5 lighting, but it will help attenuate my exhaust emissions significantly!

Bud, I urge you to 'don't shoot the messenger'... Instead I welcome you to do your own research to determine your own exposure ~ or don't. That choice is totally yours.

As for 'spot a strand of three plants from the sky', please consider thousands of radar guns and how much money they generate every year? And YES, I know it's a totally different topic and technology from this Thread and replying to that comment alone is not really necessary.

I personally remain better protected and...

SOGLAD
The comment about the three plants and radar guns make absolutely zero sense. And I can't believe somebody would be worried about some T-5s of all things. Maybe 5 1000 watters daisy chained together, but T-5s? Come on now. I've always believed it's much better to be paranoid than naive, but now it's just getting silly. You really think you'd get busted for some (basically) high output shoplights? I've got 5 of them in my garage just to light the floors. LEO doesn't give a fuck about your T-5s or my measley 10 plants. They are looking for big fish. I'm not trying to "shoot the messenger" but your argument is looking rather weak after your last post. With all your research you've been doing lately, why don't you tell me how many people with personal grows have been busted by FLIR?
 
Well first off thanks Cali, I did alot of research on Flir.. Second I woke up this morning turned on the news and the main story was State police make marijuana bust.. A guy had 10 plants spread out in his fence row along his property. They were hid under trees and in tall weeds and in fact the FLIR did spot them.. Second Bud is correct you have nothing to worry about using t-5's its the HPS or the MH lights that put off enough heat to make your roof glow.. I got a little story to tell.. It's been about 3 years ago now. I was working for a guy as an Iron worker. I knew he had been busted for growing before but I never thought much of it. Untill one day he got a phone call and took off from the shop like a bat outa hell.. I got home that night and turned the news on and what did I see? My boss was the main story. He filled his barn with plants, 986 is what the offical count was. He had almost 70,000 watts of HPS lighting. The state police were out hunting in fields and just happened to fly over his barn and seen his roof was glowing white hot.. So they landed the chopper right in his yard and kicked the barn doors in, found all his shit along with 5lbs of weed and some pills in his house. They arrested him and his wife and started seizing his property. 3 days later i was at the shop loading up to go out on a job and long behold my boss that got busted walked in.. Turns out that his roof glowing white hot from 70,000 watts of light was not probable cause enough for them to kick in his doors like they did. Not only did all charges get dropped on him and his wife but the state cops that did it got fired. Like I said this wasnt a little grow, it was almost 1000 plants.. Flir is not enough evidence by itself to justify probable cause nor get a search warrant. They must also be able to see your plants or other evidence that you are breaking the law before they can come onto your property or get a warrant to do so. How do they know you dont have an indoor vegtable garden in your attic.? They dont, FLIR is something that should always be in the back of our minds. But it's by no means the answer to stopping growers. Just use common sense, Dont grow your plants taller then the rest of the vegatation around them. Dont put massive amounts of plants in the same area, and Dont plant in places that they are gonna be looking for marijuana. People get caght when they get to greedy and go to big. It's much better to harvest one or two plants at a time then to have all your plants found.
 
Stankalot,

Your comment, "How hard do you think it would be to spot a strand of three plants from the sky when you're surveying acres at a time?" prompted my analogy about radar guns. It was a to simply say that there are many cars on a given highway, road or freeway and police monitor them constantly in many ways. But the one (or three) speeders who get picked-off are usually detected with technology and observation. I mentioned three because I was in a group of three freeway speeders and we were all cited after being clocked with a radar gun.

The op does not really have to do anything but sit there and wait for 'hits' from his gun. Now it's much the same with new FLIR and crop detection.

Also you have no idea how many plants I have nor can you know how many 8-lamp T5s I have in service! You can't know that I recently added even more plants and lights either. In addition you also don't know that I live in a major city where all of the helicopters are equipped with FLIR. These helicopters are in operation every night and day in my county and they over-fly my property often! I suppose the exception is when it rains.

It was never my intent to 'argue' about anything, but I did spend significant time learning many things about FLIR and some of the latest technology associated with them and I only wanted to relay some of what I discovered.

After re-reading your input to this Thread I checked to see what other things you find of interest and it was no real surprise to see that most of your posts are negative, attacking and quite acid.

Have a great day.

SOGLAD



Maybe 5 1000 watters daisy chained together, but T-5s? Come on now. I've always believed it's much better to be paranoid than naive, but now it's just getting silly. You really think you'd get busted for some (basically) high output shoplights? I've got 5 of them in my garage just to light the floors. LEO doesn't give a fuck about your T-5s or my measley 10 plants. They are looking for big fish. I'm not trying to "shoot the messenger" but your argument is looking rather weak after your last post. With all your research you've been doing lately, why don't you tell me how many people with personal grows have been busted by FLIR?
 
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