Hello michigan

Well a couple of things, I used to work with CCC and they are a good bunch of people. Yes, internet, including skype, and 'through the mail' certifications are CLEARLY illegal since the passing of PA 512 of 2012, and any clinic currently doing them is in violation of the act and their cards will not stand up in court if it comes out they were done by skype. The law is clear, it is an in person meeting between doctor and patients. ANY deviation is suspect, thought in my opinion all skype certifications were just fine prior to the law change. We changed our policy at Denali, not because we didn't like skype in the rural areas, but because the practice was clearly suspect and PA 512 was SPECIFICALLY anti-skype- I know because I was involved in writing it, and I couldn't get skype put in.

And yes Adam, while you are clearly wrong in your thinking that skype for a certifications is in any way legal (though I don't think they would have a problem with intracertification follow up visits), you are correct that there are still folks out there doing it via skype and through the mail and putting people at risk for having their relationship fail at a section 8 hearing.

That said, there are some times skype might make muster- a bedridden cancer patient, a blizzard blocking travel, something rather extraordinary and above all, infrequent. Doing routine visits in an area with ample certification centers because the doctor is not willing to make the drive to see the patient is not an appropriate reason to skype and would not stand up as an extraordinary circumstance.

Dr. Bob
PS, we are returning to TC, with FACE to FACE doctor patient visits.

Everyone I know that has gotten busted wasn't able to use a section 8 defense no matter what Dr, they had.

Pity Dr. Pecker, I've won every one I've been involved it. EVERY ONE. In fact, most of the time now when there is a decent attorney and I'm on the case as the doctor, the prosecutor generally dismisses the case. Most recently happened in Muskegon within the month.

But that is neither here nor there.

Dr. Bob

That is section 8 housing, not section 8 of the MMMA bloody. Do you actually pay attention to what you post?

I'll be avoiding the fluff here, this is a serious topic.

Dr. Bob

What if I don't have legs and cant get to the dr? telamedicine wont work for that? The drs who do telamedicine for medical marijuana don't prescribe the medicine They just recommend it. I provide my own medicine. bonafide latin for good faith
bo·na fide
ˈbōnə ˌfīd,ˈbänə/
adjective
adjective: bonafide

1. 1.
   genuine; real.
   "only bona fide members of the company are allowed to use the logo"
   synonyms:authentic, genuine, real, true, actual;
   legal, legitimate, lawful, valid, proper;
   informallegit, the real McCoy
   

adverb
LAW
adverb: bonafide

1. 1.
   sincerely; without intention to deceive.
   "the court will assume that they have acted bona fide" " At Denali Healthcare, PLLC, we provide professional, defensible medical marijuana certifications for Michigan patients that qualify under the Michigan Medical Marijuana Act. Our evaluations are fully compliant with the bonafide doctor/patient relationship amendment the the MMMA. We were, in fact, among the experts consulted by the Michigan Legislature to help define what a bonafide doctor/patient relationship was as that act was being written."

Dr.Pecker said:

What if I don't have legs and cant get to the dr? telamedicine wont work for that? The drs who do telamedicine for medical marijuana don't prescribe the medicine They just recommend it. I provide my own medicine. bonafide latin for good faith
bo·na fide
ˈbōnə ˌfīd,ˈbänə/
adjective
adjective: bonafide

1. 1.
   genuine; real.
   "only bona fide members of the company are allowed to use the logo"
   synonyms:authentic, genuine, real, true, actual;
   legal, legitimate, lawful, valid, proper;
   informallegit, the real McCoy

adverb
LAW
adverb: bonafide

1. 1.
   sincerely; without intention to deceive.
   "the court will assume that they have acted bona fide" " At Denali Healthcare, PLLC, we provide professional, defensible medical marijuana certifications for Michigan patients that qualify under the Michigan Medical Marijuana Act. Our evaluations are fully compliant with the bonafide doctor/patient relationship amendment the the MMMA. We were, in fact, among the experts consulted by the Michigan Legislature to help define what a bonafide doctor/patient relationship was as that act was being written."

Click to expand...

No need to quote what the dictionary says about the meaning of bona fide, what matters here is that law defines it as far as medical marijuana goes in PA 512 of 2012. There are indeed generic laws on telemedicine, and it is allowed in many specialties and circumstances. The issue with medical marijuana is that PA 512 specifically addresses telemedicine in medical marijuana certifications, and that overrides a 'generic telemedicine is ok in most circumstances'. While I feel telemedicine is just fine, the state lawmakers had a hard on for it and as a result specifically required a face to face for certifications (which include initial and renewal visits). As you can see from the quote you took from our website, we take this responsibility seriously (I personally drive over 6000 miles a month to see each MMJ patient face to face from Ironwood to Saginaw to Kalamazoo) and we are considered experts on the subject.

But believe what you want to believe about skype. But ask yourself, who gets the money, and who goes to jail if it doesn't work? That should tell you a lot about clinics that still use it despite the law change.

Dr. Bob

Oh, and your question about bedridden patients, that is what housecalls are for. I've done many. If skype is used, it had better be pretty low risk of exposure to law enforcement and it had better be well documented and justified in the chart. It is clearly a risk in an extraordinary situation.

Above all, do what is best for the patients. Ask forgiveness from the authorities later.

Dr. Bob

This feels like old times. Ahhhhhh.

I thought that was the case. Face to face exams are required.

Either way, even if given the choice I would still go with an in-person exam for the legal reasons Dr Bob mentioned above. Better safe than sorry

Yeah, there are are couple of scams going on now. Skype is one, renewal through the mail is another. The last is the signature stamp and the 'prepaid' followup a 5 hour drive away. We have also seen clinics threaten to write the state if patients don't come in for a $150 visit one year after their certification. The last is technically legal, but we don't do it because we want to encourage people to be safe and legal, and we offer free follow ups to give them every chance to be safe. While we do act as paid expert witnesses in Section 8 hearings, we would prefer to simply let them have an uneventful run and recertify them every two years. They have enough to worry about with their medical conditions to have to prove their case in court.

But if they do, we have that covered.

Dr. Bob

Have a Bonafide Relationship with your Doctor

Bonafide has two meanings. The first, broad meaning is that it is Latin for good faith. The problem is what is evidence of ‘good faith’ differs based on your end goal. What is ‘good faith’ to you and me may not be ‘good faith’ to a judge. As a result, there is now a ‘legal’ definition of bonafide in the law.

We do not have to agree with the definition they settled on of what a ‘bonafide relationship’ is. We need to use it as a standard to make sure we meet the requirement, just like the pre-flight check list a pilot does before every flight. It is there for a reason, it gives the court something to ‘check off’ without having to apply medical reasoning (judges are lawyers, not doctors- they are not expected to think like doctors and use medical reasoning), and having a known standard is ESSENTIAL for your attorney to plan your defense in a Section 8 Hearing- his entire defense hinges on showing you met the standard.

That is what is on my website.

Dr.Pecker said:

What if I don't have legs and cant get to the dr? telamedicine wont work for that? The drs who do telamedicine for medical marijuana don't prescribe the medicine They just recommend it. I provide my own medicine. bonafide latin for good faith
bo·na fide
ˈbōnə ˌfīd,ˈbänə/
adjective
adjective: bonafide

1. 1.
   genuine; real.
   "only bona fide members of the company are allowed to use the logo"
   synonyms:authentic, genuine, real, true, actual;
   legal, legitimate, lawful, valid, proper;
   informallegit, the real McCoy

adverb
LAW
adverb: bonafide

1. 1.
   sincerely; without intention to deceive.
   "the court will assume that they have acted bona fide" " At Denali Healthcare, PLLC, we provide professional, defensible medical marijuana certifications for Michigan patients that qualify under the Michigan Medical Marijuana Act. Our evaluations are fully compliant with the bonafide doctor/patient relationship amendment the the MMMA. We were, in fact, among the experts consulted by the Michigan Legislature to help define what a bonafide doctor/patient relationship was as that act was being written."

Click to expand...

I've butted heads with Dr Bob before, but when it comes to the legalities of the Dr/patient relationship I would defer to him. I'm confident that he knows more about this than the rest of us put together.

Instead of asking hypothetical questions, you should be asking yourself if there are any extenuating circumstances (that would hold up in court) that would preclude you from a face to face exam with your doctor? If the answer is no, then you have a decision to make

So what your saying is legislative ignorance is what determines if we are criminals or not.

st0wandgrow said:

I've butted heads with Dr Bob before, but when it comes to the legalities of the Dr/patient relationship I would defer to him. I'm confident that he knows more about this than the rest of us put together.

Instead asking hypothetical questions, you should be asking yourself if there are any extenuating circumstances (that would hold up in court) that would preclude you from a face to face exam with your doctor? If the answer is no, then you have a decision to make

Click to expand...

Your always reasonable except when you say I post nonsense.

Not really. I am saying they set the standard, we can choose to meet that standard or not. If we don't and are arrested, then we get to plead our case in court. If they don't agree, THEN we are criminals.

True, stow and I are not buddies, but we both have the integrity to admit it when the other is correct or knows more about a particular subject. That is a discussion.

Dr.Pecker said:

So what your saying is legislative ignorance is what determines if we are criminals or not.

Click to expand...

That, and a fucked up legal system.

Membership has its privileges

This is an interesting word because it shows how complete ignorance can result in language change.The Latin phrase "bona fide" means "good faith", from the words "bona" meaning "good" and "fide" meaning "faith" as in the word fidelity. The phrase is pronounced "bona fee-day". It is used by lawyers, particularly in the concept of a bona fide purchaser for value. In this case the idea is that the purchaser is a genuine purchaser and not someone who has bought something as a legal fiction.This word slipped from the legal vocabulary into business use to describe genuine non-fraudulent customers. And this is where the ignorant guys step in. At some point someone read the word who had never heard it pronounced and assumed that the word "fide" must rhyme with "hide". As people walked around pronouncing it this way, some equally ignorant person who had never heard it spelled assumed that it must be the past tense of a verb used as an adjective, which is common enough, and assumed that it must be spelled "bonafied". From this the further ignorant assumption was made that there must be a verb "bonafy" for which this was the past.When I first heard this word used, it was used to mean "to verify as genuine".

I have about 6 lawyers a phone call away.... Only way I can sleep at night sometimes...lol

Dr.Pecker said:

This is an interesting word because it shows how complete ignorance can result in language change.The Latin phrase "bona fide" means "good faith", from the words "bona" meaning "good" and "fide" meaning "faith" as in the word fidelity. The phrase is pronounced "bona fee-day". It is used by lawyers, particularly in the concept of a bona fide purchaser for value. In this case the idea is that the purchaser is a genuine purchaser and not someone who has bought something as a legal fiction.This word slipped from the legal vocabulary into business use to describe genuine non-fraudulent customers. And this is where the ignorant guys step in. At some point someone read the word who had never heard it pronounced and assumed that the word "fide" must rhyme with "hide". As people walked around pronouncing it this way, some equally ignorant person who had never heard it spelled assumed that it must be the past tense of a verb used as an adjective, which is common enough, and assumed that it must be spelled "bonafied". From this the further ignorant assumption was made that there must be a verb "bonafy" for which this was the past.When I first heard this word used, it was used to mean "to verify as genuine".

Click to expand...

It is bonafide when it refers to marihuana.....lol

The bills, which I notice nobody ever quotes, state that all that is required is an interactive, real-time, audio, video or both beginning with the first visit. People can believe whatever they want. As long as a patient has a doctor who is willing to stand up for them, medically, legally or any other kind of need the patient could require, the patient's defense is not in question. On top of that, Uniformity (which is the law of the land in Michigan) dictates that for a practice to be disallowed it needs to be specifically mentioned. Telemedicine was not mentioned in the new PA 512, therefore it is allowed by virtue of other laws on the books in Michigan. While some may disagree on this, I have never, not once, after asking on listserves with lawyers heard about a single case where telemedicine was questioned by a prosecutor. It is the overall standards of practice at the medical center or the doctor that count more than anything.