Hey all, planning lights for a large space, 2 options for layout whats my solution?

Hello All,

TL : DR Working on a large lollipop grow space
Light needs = 500w per 16 sq ft or 1000w per 16 sq ft?
Lighting solutions? LEC, LED, HYBRID (LED + HPS/HID)?


I found my way to the forums here through the excellent growlog from Jameson and Mr Blakk on youtube.

With recreational weed coming to Oregon I am doing some serious research and planning into large scale operations. I have a space in mind, an 1100 sq ft room with 12 ft ceilings and an intended maximum space of 794 sq/ft for flowering and veg. I have a separate 45'x17' space for cloning - mothers - nute prep - plumbing, etc.

So here is my issue, we have a budget that can support LED or LEC and I am at loss after a few weeks of research with companies on exactly what my lighting needs are. I have put out quotes and am not having much luck with responses, maybe it is just a backlog from the holidays but I am thirsty for knowledge here.

The convention seems to be 500-1000w per 16 sq feet (4’x4’ foot print). with many LED companies comparing output of their lights to 500w HPS. What do you suggest?

With this in mind I have come up with some calculations. Namely that each approximately 20’x20’ space would need 25 lights (50 total), a lot of heat and additional HVAC here if we chose traditional HPS or HID.

So the front runners are:

Sun system complete lec 630 and 315 Here
My current calculations consider the lec 630 to cover a 4’x8’ foot print and the lec 315 to cover 4’x4’
which would mean 24 630’s and 2 315s (here is what that looks like approximately) about 25k in lec

Seems low density in terms of light placement. Though I am pretty certain this would work out to an equivalent of a 500w hps on every 4'x4' segement. the overlap from the outlined grow area on the included sheets is about 1 ft. on the perimeter. The intent is provide for good canopy penetration with this perimeter.

If the calculations are correct on the w/sqft then an equivalent led solution is ~37k from supergrowled using SK450's Here (thoughts?)

Here are the two layouts we are considering:


Posted this over on NWGT as well, will try and update information on this as i get quotes from manufacturers back.

~Thom

Large room, and 12 ft ceilings and your thinking LEDs?

I'd rethink that.

- Jiji

jijiandfarmgang said:

Large room, and 12 ft ceilings and your thinking LEDs?

I'd rethink that.

- Jiji

Click to expand...

id second that. are you sure your willing to spend all this money with no experience?

With such a large investment, I would have to see first hand that those led lights produce higher quality buds than hps. And even if they do, it will all be old tech in 2 years minimum, like cell phones and computers. If I were covering that large of an area, I would go with something like the gavita 1000w ballasts and double ended lamps.

Thanks for the replies!

<quote>I'd rethink that.</quote>
Why? What is your reasoning? Lower heating and self containment (no external ballast) is a lot to dismiss without reasons.

<quote>are you sure your willing to spend all this money with no experience?</quote>

Growing is not an issue for us, traditional lighting is not a concern either

Above is 1 of 8, 8-9 foot tall lollies on harvest day from our last outdoor. I cannot recall if this was the Headband or the Cali Special, but we netted almost 2 of bud from each.

Scale my friends, there is a certain point where the number of lights you plan to have surpasses the amount of power you desire to pay for.


This is phase 1 of 4, adding an equally sized space at each phase, I could be looking at upwards of 400 lights in the end. The HVAC and power requirements are pretty rediculous for that. Not to mention bulb replacement, maintenance etc.

Driving force in the consideration of LEC or LED is the Longevity of the bulbs and the reduced electrical bill.

Money is not really a consideration here, and I can tell that asking a question with "LED" as part of the subject has derailed this from being a discussion about light density with varying platforms into an LED bash. BASH AWAY! Could I ask for your reasons though?

<quote>I would go with something like the gavita 1000w ballasts and double ended lamps.</quote>

Very nice indeed, thanks for the input. I have been looking at a few vertical lamp reflectors, The word seems to be that they prevent the drop off of lumens from the tip and the base you see with horizontal reflectors.

Again the idea is to examine the needs for a garden that matches the output of say 100, 500w HPS or HIDS (or 50 1000w's) using LEC or LED. If this means using 6 times the led lighting to do it, so be it. This is all on paper at the moment, this is research.

Thanks again for the replies!

Maybe half LED and half LEC in the first phase. Then you would have some results to compare for the later phases. Nothing like first hand experience. That being said, when it come to the LEC I would go with the 315s. Burning 2 bulbs so close together as the 630s do, wave interference could be a real possibility.

If LEDs were so grand, then everyone in the commercial scene would use them. They are no secret. They are for hobbyists.

I spend too much time LED bashing so, my best advice would be for you to find someone running leds near the same scale as you plan and take their advice.

Good luck

- Jiji

I am searching for just that, a large existing commercial led op. I imagine that Initial investment for a commercial grow already using traditional lighting is a barrier to entry. Washington and Colarado are my only sources i can think for a commercial grow and competition may play some into the silence on that front.

Don't listen to those other guys, LED is the future of commercial growing. You just don't see LEDs in a commercial setting because allot of commercial growers don't have the cash for them.

Seriously though, with your grow knowledge gleaned from YouTube and we'll laid out plans, the sky is the limit. There is hardly no compeition in Oregon.

Def go with all the LEC you can afford, there are more options than the sun systems but the sun systems 315 is nice, the 630 I wouldn't bother with and I'd do two 315s.
With the headroom you have I'd say go with luxor or OG hoods and philips allstart 860. Toss in some lec 315s here and there and yeah I'd probably add a LED or two. I really like to mix it up.

Thom Franklin said:

I am searching for just that, a large existing commercial led op. I imagine that Initial investment for a commercial grow already using traditional lighting is a barrier to entry. Washington and Colarado are my only sources i can think for a commercial grow and competition may play some into the silence on that front.

Click to expand...

Check out the led section, in the indoor growing section. Im not against leds, there are just a lot of companies that are more than happy to take your money with promise of matching hid equivalent.

As far as LEC is concerned as said, the 630 sounds nice, but your going to have an efficiency loss with two bulbs in the reflector. The same goes for the dual HPS or dual reflectors designed for one HPS and one MH.

The phillips allstart 860 sounds cool, but I don't think it would compare with say a Gavita 1000 de. I don't know as I've never seen one, but If you decided to go that route, I would definitely try one out before purchasing a bunch of them.

- Jiji

I gotta say Thom, your problem is one that lots of people on here would love to have...which awesome new Tec to go with? Hmmm let me see... I have to vote LEC. I would agree with everybody else and say just go all 315 because more points of light = better coverage. If you search 315LEC here you'll find a couple of grow journals and in one thread two guys mention feeling like their plants finished earlier by a week to 10 days then when they were using other lighting with same strains previously. I've heard the same from a close buddy at the shop as well. Faster finishing plants with similar or better yields...that seems worth looking into. I think you might be stretching it to hope they will cover a 4 x 4. Seems to be the prevailing opinion is they'll cover a 3 x 3 maybe little bigger.

My vote is gavita 1000e DE's with the gavita e-controller.

A blend of LEC's and LED's are good if that's not a budget problem.

Hard to beat the gavita's.

Thanks for the input all!

Og Hoods are my favorite in appearance and functional promises. Going to have put some more time into reviewing materials here as they are popular enough to be well reviewed. Front runner for a traditional option.

The search for more LED info has led me to understanding the benefits of MCOB, which can be found here http://www.ledhorticulture.com/the-end-of-led-grow-lights/

Explains the the technical differences and classifications of different arrays.

Unfortunately Locating a commercially available MCOB seems to be a thing of the future. A bunch of new developments with these are slated for release Q1 2015. Conveniently the state (OMC) is delaying applications for licenses till at least the summer.

The recreational ramp up in Oregon is slow... They are not required to start taking applications till 1-4-16 and the application itself has not even been written.

Og vertical hoods if had to guess, are the worst air cooled hood on the market.

- Jiji

Hi hi, sorry for being absent on this for so long. Been renovating an apartment and finally through all that.

I have some drawings done with some layouts based on the discussion between this post and my other post on NWGT.

I like the third layout...of course, since I was voting 315's in the begining. I think that with a two year bulb life and the low power consumption, they are appealing enough. When you add in the low reported operating temps and the way that will affect your HVAC needs and costs, I think its easily the best way to go. Just my opinion, but I think that creating a well maintained environment is just as important as the choice in light source is. If you have a light source that doesn't create a lot of excess heat, then you don't have the need to bring in (or create) cool air. In Colorado where I am, the outside temps change so drastically from winter to summer, that it can be a challenge to regulate temps. From week to week, it can be difficult to keep up with these crazy temps (I was disc golfin in a t-shirt on Valentines Day, and now Have 1.5 ft of snow in my yard). If a light can run cool enough to not need any extra cooling, then you aren't having to work as hard (spend as much $) to deal with the variations in outside conditions. In Oregon, my guess would be that the biggest factor to overcome would be the humidity. If the lights create a lot of heat (like the Gavita DE 1000w's) then you can a) Air Condition the space - meaning more electricity $ or b) Bring In Cold Air from Outside - meaning more humidity variations and more $ to regulate humidity with dehumidifiers and such. Either way you slice it, you're gonna pay more to regulate a space with the 1k's. When you figure that the elec. bill is easily the biggest operating expense, you are gonna have, the 315's look like the way to go right now.

Hey Doobey,

I really like the idea of LEC, but I am not sold on it as a tech from Sunsystem. Having purchased hoods from them in the past and encountered switches that had been installed backwards, <- my boss was told someone must have stepped out for a joint while constructing it >.<. So maybe their quality control is up, but I have to go with Gavita's numbers on failure rate, they have industry backing with <1% failure rate. Serious quality shite.

We have decided, tentatively to move forward with 40 1000w gavita DE open air lights (thanks JIJI). still 4-6 months before this is set in stone though.

Total btu calc= ~360k, so a 30-35 ton commercial split system. and about 20k a year to run 12:12
WIth the number of lights you need to match 40 hps at 3x3 coverage there is really only a noticable change of about 40k btus, energy could be huge though.

Updates: we are moving to building permits this week!

Honestly The most disappointing thing about all this research is that the LED bashing is way more on the spot than not. Right now there are just too many companies re-branding the same tech over and over, This is not limited to LED either. Induction lighting is just as screwed when it comes to duping and re-branding. Most notably, I-Grow comes to mind, "developed" with another industrial lighting manufacturer who also sells pretty much identical induction kits at half the cost.

Cidly.com home of the manufacturer of the Apollo lights and most 3-w led panels you see on wordpress startup websites.

The science is all there for LED, but the products and warranty are not quite in line with Traditional lighting yet. There are some amazing true hort-grade LEDS, that are about 3k a pop that really can replace HPS, but you cant beat a $600w gavita 1000w with that initial investment change.

Who knows though, maybe the right stuff will be out just in time to make this a more green friendly grow, The idea of 4 30-ton ac units at the end of this is daunting. It is really not cost conscious with the pricing of oregon's rec weed to be happy about 18-20k yearly bill for lights alone. at full build for us that is 80-100k in electricity yearly.

That's the part of this that makes me lean so heavy toward LEC. The thought of all that money being spent on the power bill! Ug it makes my stomach turn. If the LEC lights can be run with a minimum of environmental adjustments then they'll save big $. With an order your size Sunsytem would likely be happy to give you a guarantee on quality be quick to remedy any issues, but maybe not. I'd just hate to see a new tech passed on because the factory had made a defective piece of equipment in its past...